So, tonight, I went to Institute where we talked about why some people away the BoM. Without giving away that I have no intentions of converting and I knew the church was founded on false claims and twists and turns, I offered the following answers...politely:

"Because Joseph Smith gave 53 prophecies and 51 failed to come to pass."

"Because the BoM has no archaelogical evidence to corroborate it compared to the Bible which has over 40,000 manuscripts worldwide to corroborate its authenticity and the events in the Bible have already come to pass in actual history."

I remember the institute days oh they hated me crashing every class haha I didn't think any of js prophecies came true that's news to me guess I stopped researching after the 14 year old wives along with his many other teenage wives.

For a listing of Joe's prophecies, see my compilation:
http://packham.n4m.org/prophet.htm "Joseph Smith As A Prophet"

Actually, a couple of them did come to pass, but none that the Mormons could be proud of.

Nice he prophesied his own death I always wondered where he boasted to be greater than Jesus and there it is thanks

Okay.

What happened (then)?

Nice comeback with the first one about Smith "prophecies."
However, your second comeback is...wrong.

Yes, there are over 40,000 bible manuscripts, but most of them come from after 1,000 CE, none are original, and none date before the 2nd century CE. There are also more *substantive* contradictions among those manuscripts than there are words in the bible. Not a one of them corroborates any "authenticity." And contrary to your claim, most of the stories in the bible have either been shown false or have zero evidence to back them up. Only a few parts in the period of the later "judges" can be corroborated, and even those nearly always appear embellished and inaccurate.

You can, of course, "believe" the bible if you want to. But you appear to be using some not very good reasons for doing so.

If I were of institute age, I'd believe in the tooth fairy if it would get me some action.

moremany, I believe I got some people questioning their beliefs. Me saying that didn't harbor any resentment or anger. People took it just fine, in fact :)

ificouldhidetokolob, I do not blame you since you can only draw inferences from what I'm writing. I have my own reasons for believing :)

I'm so proud I got through four years of college in Utah without taking a single Institute class.

I know from some of your other posts that you're an investigator who doesn't want to convert because Mormonism conflicts with your Christian beliefs. I'm curious how soon they will start pushing you out or away if you're challenging things this matter-of-factly. Please keep us informed.

lol I challenge their beliefs in way that is subtle and I don't do it often to avoid the impression that I am challenging them. I'm just glad it looked like I got some people thinking about their beliefs in Institute.

And it's not necessarily that I didn't convert because aspects of the Mormon religion conflicted my beliefs, but there were aspects of the faith that were red flags to me --- the stance on LGBT, church history and foundations, tithing, the JS "translation", and other stuff.

Today in Gospel Principles, I should have just ask the Adam-God doctrine question in front of the entire class (as I have always done) rather than just ask the missionary teaching the class before the class started.

But, yes, I am still attending the church as an investigator. I do it to ask provocative questions every now and then and to hear what they are preaching for ideas for more provocative questions. But, I do love everyone at the ward sincerely and genuinely. Nice people :)

And sure, I will keep everyone posted.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2017 01:14PM by canary21.

2/9/2017 : Institute Meeting


Well, tonight was rather funny. Our Institute teacher was sharing this Bible verse [Ephesians 2:5] "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" and how the Bible only has "one interpretation" and that Christianity has multiple denominations because people interpret the Bible differently.

At the end of class, I raised my hand and asked [subtly challenging] her: "Going back to your diagram and the verse connected "one Lord, one faith, one interpretation," can you explain to me the difference between the FLDS, RLDS, and mainstream LDS? Her response?

- FLDS: Polygamy; pioneer days
- RLDS: Joseph Smith's son is the rightful successor. It is father-to-son line of succession
- Mainstream: Started w/Brigham Young; no longer practice polygamy [and outlawed] it because it was against the law of the land (church members criticized for giving into the government pressure); retain more members significantly compared to FLDS and RLDS; has missionaries worldwide


Chatter away.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 11:20PM by canary21.

She hasn't read her history, or TSCC's gospel flops/ "essays".

"Mainstream: Started w/Brigham Young; no longer practice polygamy [and outlawed] it because it was against the law of the land (church members criticized for giving into the government pressure); retain more members significantly compared to FLDS and RLDS; has missionaries worldwide"

She doesn't know much about her religion does she: Joseph's Myth's poly-gay-me. AGAINST THE LAW OF THE LAND? It's always been against the law and was therefore done in secret - and was only stopped when they were forced to. How dumb. Morons!

You know what I find rather off? The fact that she mentioned that church members criticized TSCC for bending to the government's will regarding polygamy. So, if they claim to be the "one true church in which the Lord is well pleased" why did the church bend to the government's willpower? I heard a funny story about this in which the church supposedly "received a revelation to end polygamy" just to obtain statehood given that polygamy was the only thing standing in the way for them to get it.

You might ask her why JS was breaking the law (i.e. polygamy, Kirkland banking fraud) when he wrote to John Wentworth, an editor for a Chicago newspaper, in March 1842 outlining (among other things) the Articles of Faith. See #12, We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/07/the-wentworth-letter?lang=eng

Tonight's Institute Lesson: False Prophets. Covered what happened to Sherem, Nehor, and Korihor (my group).

All I could think of that night was: I sure hope they remembered the fact I brought up...JS gave 53 prophecies and 51 have failed to come to pass.

EDIT: The Institute instructor said one thing I found funny...of all the churches, the Mormon church had the highest retention rate of active young adults. Surprisingly, the trend shows the opposite, especially now that a lot of people have resigned after learning about the church's history and JS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2017 11:40PM by canary21.

they won't remember hell I didn't even remember until this thread popped up again, I thought no prophecies came to pass I thought he was a totally false con man.