I cannot count the number of Sunday school and priesthood lessons I have sat through that involved stories about members who had left the Church because someone had offended them.

Mormons love to think people leave the Church because of imperfect members giving offence. (They constantly have to remind themselves they are not perfect yet, usually to the tune of forced laughter.)

If you were ever a true-believing Mormon who sat through such a lesson, did it occur to you at the time that the lesson giver might be trivialising the experiences of so-called "inactive members"?

If someone in a club you belong to offends you enough, why not leave? Especially if you discover that the club is not what it promised to be? The hard core club members will not comprehend it, though.

Simple.

I agree. Being offended enough by either people within an organization or by something the organization promotes is a valid reason for leaving.

Yes, Mormons trivialize any and all objections to their odd faith. I think mistreatment is a huge problem in their ranks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2017 06:09PM by donbagley.

If it's not, I think the excuse making for those who leave - blaming them while claiming the religion or organization is perfect or beyond reproach - should be an indication of a cult. The characteristic seems to be very common among cults.

Unfortunately, I bought the bull....excrement. I thought people left because they were offended, and later they sought doctrinal reasons to justify their decision.

I think I had the same experience as you. I feel for it hook, line, and sinker as well.

I remember one time our class got onto the topic of an unnamed member joining a different religion. No one could comprehend how someone could give up the Fully Restored Gospel™ for the partial truths taught at some other church.

*gag*

When you're born into the cult, and that's what you're spoonfed from an early age on, it was our frame of reference for what we were taught to be "truth."

I still don't quite understand the mindset of converts who were something else before joining the LDS church. My mom was one. That was in the days before all the history came out of the cupboard, but even if it was well known, I doubt she'd have been curious enough to search it out.

She remained steadfast in her faith until the end, despite she'd gone inactive the last couple decades of her life.

What about the milk strippings? Hahaha.

How foolish to leave after merely having been cheated.

Yeah, remember James Faust's "The Little Things" conference talk in October 2001?

I heard this talk within days of discovering that JS was a conman and that his church was a fraud. (This just a week or so after 911.) It was the first time that I got to test my new LDS bullshit meter and Faust's talk sent it off the charts.

The real reason Cowdery, Marsh and Whitmer left is that they knew that Smith was shagging every female over 13 years old within a 10 mile radius of Kirkland, Ohio.

A little thing? I don't think so! It would be like Tommy Monson holding an orgy every Saturday night in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake temple.

"MILK STRIPPINGS". PLEASE EXPLAIN.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1286569

The original case where a high-ranking church leader left the church simply because he was "offended".

Maybe, just maybe, if the cult members weren't so damned offensive then those members leaving over offenses wouldn't have cause to be offended.

The offensive jerks are the ones who're left after the sensitive ones have left for greener pastures.

The church is suffocating in its own vomit!

As the numbers continue to dwindle, it still hasn't dawned on the jerks that they contribute to the malaise and demise of the cult by their behavior.

Serves them right. In a perverse way, they're actually doing a service for others by helping them to "see the light."

Spot on!

I watched a lot PH leaders abuse their power. They used fear and intimidation to rule. They would serve forever or so it seemed. Conversely, only a handful of leaders would listen to others and ask for suggestions. These were often released and removed early because they were somehow deemed to be ineffective in their leadership. Go figure!

That is my go to response now when a Mormon says people only leave the church because they are offended. I ask "So why don't Mormons quit being so offensive? No wonder no one respects them."

I've found Mormons are so shocked by the idea that no one respects them that it gives them pause for a minute and they actually think about what you just said, instead of chanting canned responses.

After I left and realized the complex and different reasons people leave the church, it occurred to me that the main reason these stories are shared is to keep members from leaving (not to actually understand why someone would leave the church). Someone who takes offense is essentially weak and thin-skinned. So when something inevitably happens that offends them, they check themselves and say, oh, well I don't want to be weak like that guy who left because Joseph Smith misspelled his name! And so they end up staying.

But it's all victim blaming, isn't it? The conversation is never "hey, we're an offensive people. Maybe people would spend more time with us if we weren't constantly hurting them!"

And along those lines, it has the benefit that the church can still be true. In fact, I was convinced on my mission that most inactive members wanted to be in church, they'd just been hurt. This is also why we all have family, friends, and neighbors who harass us. They truly believe we just had some bad experience, and if they let us know they care, we'll come back joyfully.

EXACTLY!
It's a way of making those who leave look very weak and petty.

Mormon leaders are dicks, and the teachings are bullshit. And that offends me.

Right, because people are so feeble minded that they would give up all eternity over an insult.

Of course they can't fathom that most people leave because it is Bull Cr@p.

They have to villainize people who leave to feel secure.

As an active Mormon, I believed the stories I heard about members leaving because they were offended. I also believed the stories I heard about members leaving because they were addicted to porn or involved in some sort of serious sin. It wasn't until I left the church that I recalled the stories I'd heard over the years and realized that they were probably just more lies perpetuated by the church.

You'd think that those Sunday school lessons about people leaving the church because of offense would be taught in a way to remind other members that they shouldn't be offensive, but they're not. They're taught in a way to make members who leave look petty and weak.

Granted I'm sure there have been a quite a few that left over offences, but I doubt it's widespread. I can't think of anyone I know personally know that left due to being offended. Can you?

I hate being lied to and I hate fake. So when I'm accused of having a 'bad experience' and I got 'offended', that's what I say. There's no amount of niceness from people in the church that can nullify that they are lying to me. Period.

If they want a real relationship with me and real friendship, then they can't view me through the lens of their doctrines ('Every member is a missionary', 'Find common ground with the investigator', 'Just keep reaching out'). I'm not an object for conversion nor a number for their celestial tallies. I want real friends and trustworthy people in my life.

They are the weak ones. Crying their eyes out in sacrament over things like telling their kids' coach the kid can't play on Sundays. If people fall out over that, they can't survive the apocalypse anyway.

For OP, what does your username mean, and in what language?

I can't tell if it's Japanese or Chinese (or either?)

If you don't mind saying, that is. :)

I'm guessing it's Chinese, or Kanji.

It is my legal name here in Taiwan, where I have lived for years now, so it is Chinese. I have heard Japanese people frown on foreigners adopting native Japanese names (Snobbish much? Lol.), but Taiwan (a former Japanese colony) is the opposite. Alien residents are highly encouraged to adopt Chinese names. English names won't fit on the National Health Insurance cards, for example, and almost no one here even knows my English name.

It is easy to confuse Chinese and Japanese names, as both languages use Chinese characters. Chinese names *usually* consist of three characters (sometimes two, rarely four). Japanese names *usually* consist of four characters.

A common apologist's ploy; since there is no valid reason to ever leave the One True Church, the newly departed must have been 'offended'.


It's an example of double think: "since they were offended, I needn't trouble myself to consider the substantive reasons that might have led to a member's departure."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2017 11:15PM by 3X.

Why don't they think that being offended is a good reason to get away? Don't they look at the reasons someone was offended as legitimate? Or do they think the offense taken is legitimate but just not enough to leave the church over? I hear "you're just offended!" And it's like yes I am. Why is that my fault? I'm not forgiving enough? (Which just means I'm not insisting to myself that my emotions are my fault and I'm not supposed to control my life enough to get away from the stuff that is harmful?)

They think people who stop attending church are throwing away their chances for eternal salvation and that it is their God-given responsibility to "save" inactive members from themselves. In fact, not bothering them would be selfish. Better pretend to give a crap about their lives until they start attending again!

Who said beliefs can't be toxic? Hehe.

Then they remind us, "The church is perfect, but the members aren't."

Yeah, that.

Sometimes I reply to them when they say that, No - mostly good people, bad doctrine and fake scriptures.

to LDS, many of whom are Sans Boundaries, there is No Such Thing as a legitimate offense.

Yeah, that explains it.

What sort of boundaries do Mormons cross?

How about?

-Being told not to cry or be sad over the loss of a loved one [because the fullness of the gospel teaches of such happiness]

-That's a pretty dress. I have a similar pattern for my bathroom curtains.

-You really should be happy that you couldn't get a prom date. You might have dated a non-member and lost your virginity.

-We know that we didn't call before coming over for HT/VT but you should expect us anyways at the end of the month.

-We're going to put you down for a $10.00 donation because you wouldn't want a lack of generosity to be explained to the bishop, would you?

Mormons ask personal questions that are none of their business like when are you having another baby, why does your daughter wear short sleeved blouses.

They give advice that is inappropriate and unappreciated. You need to quit working and stay home with your children.

Why? Because they think "your" business is "their business."

"Hopefully our son's paralysis is temporary and he will use this as an opportunity to learn how to not be gay."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2017 10:50AM by GregS.

They were never specific in those lessons, as to exactly what "offended" the apostate. They don't use the word "offense."

No, the lessons only say that those who leave "are offended", which is the passive, or reflexive tense, which implies it was self-created by the subject. Huge difference in terminology! The Mormons deny any actual offense occurred--only that the victim was offended. See what I'm saying?

They deny that one of them tried to molest my little girl, that the adult priesthood leaders kicked the boys for being late for meeting, that the primary teacher spanked the kids in his class, that they lied about me and maligned me in front of my children, in my own home. They think it's OK to threaten a sick person that they will get sicker if they don't continue to attend meetings and pay tithing. They think it's OK to hate gay people, and exclude their children from baptism, and on and on. These are offenses! They offend anyone who has empathy towards others--anyone--regardless of religion.

Who is NOT offended when they see a child being kicked and spanked at church? Who is not offended when someone lies to them or threatens them? Who is not offended at pushy salespeople constantly trying to con them out of their money?

The Mormons hate me because I'm an apostate. I'm offended by that. Mormon leaders (men) disrespect me because I'm a woman. Mormon adults disrespect children, and lie to them, and threaten them, and give them nightmares, and make them unhappy. I'm offended by anyone who wants to hurt my children.

Damn right we leave over offenses! And we never go back, and we take our children with us when we leave, and we help others when they leave.

Yes, I know of members that were regularly attending that were offended by a certain prick. This asshole called the SS prez targeted individuals that would ask tough questions because it embarrassed the-know-it-all gospel doctrine teacher that couldn't give the correct church answer. So these "trouble makers" were discouraged from attending GD class. The "problem people" ended up socializing in those comfy chairs.

It became a bigger problem when more and more folks were enjoying the foyer than class. The SS prez then decided to remove the foyer furniture which didn't work because the "miscreants" stole folding chairs from adjacent rooms. Ultimately, the SS asswipe prepared a list for the bishopric to give an ultimatum.

Either attend your meetings or get out of the building!

I know this because my father was on this list. Dad told me about it upon his arrival. For him, Sunday morning football became 1000 times more interesting. Dad stopped attending and I continued up the Mormon ph ladder of teacher and priest with an inactive father. I was shamed and shunned because I had to have some other "worthy" surrogate ph holder ordain me because my dad was offended.

This happened in the 1980s. As a mashie in the 90s, I ran into some nice folks that had similar run-ins with pricks [local ph leaders]. Indeed, there were members that were run off because the leaders could get away with it and even "pat themselves" on the back.

However, a shift occurred when the internet came along. It became real easy for members to discover that the church has intentionally lied to them and withheld critical information. Now days, a good chunk of members have learned that TSSC is a giant fraud, but the church still shakes it off as thin-skinned easily offended flakes.

They want "weak" members to back down and realize that they're lost without mormon kindness which is withdrawn from them if they show weakness in the faith. Mormons think they're being kind when they batter and berate because they think this is a way to keep lesser members in line.

A Thought**
If you attempt to enslave my mind

Extort money from me

and treat me as a slave Is it so strange that I might become offended?

I wonder why the church consistently counsels its members not take offense at their leaders, but it never counsels its leaders not to be offensive douche bags and assholes who offend others.

There are number of LDS Church leaders who are offensive pricks, starting at the very top of the pyramid. During the 47 years that I was an active Mormon, leaders like BKP, Oaks and many other so-called authorities offended the hell out of me with their self-righteousness and condescending attitudes. But I accepted it, although sometimes with wounded feelings, because I bought their claims hook, line, and sinker, naively believing that these were men of God

While I did not leave the church because these ass wipes offended me (I left because I realized that the church was not "true" and that I had been lied to), I don't blame anyone who leaves because they were offended. It is as valid a reason as anything else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2017 06:17PM by merryprankster123.

I'm nevermo and even I was offended by TBM neighbors ;)

Years ago my daughter's seminary teacher tried to use the "offended" lie. My daughter spoke right up and said it wasn't true that her dad left because he didn't believe in it anymore. I was so proud!

Even the playing field.

I am the referee... and play an honest game. I left because I'm right. TSCC is wrong (saying they have - and tell - the truth)!

Since I'm on offense [and tscc on de fence-defense] (I found a hole and see the endzone), and moved the so-called 'church' out of my way, I'm going straight to Godhead (as a matter of speaking), without obstacles, interference or misguidance (or any other LDS dances).

I'm Off-fence! The mormoni paradigm is offence. It's rational, ridiculous.

I stopped attending church because of offenses, and left the church because of discovering the truth of the lies and cover-ups. It started ever since I was little,beginning with the bishop's kids trying to burn down my parent's house to the more recent time where either my husband or my children were being shunned and/or harassed. One time, when we called the parents of the girls who were bullying my daughters,it was those parents who yelled at me and my husband and allowed their teenage daughter to scream at me and my husband also. This particular family was one of the most popular families in the ward. Another time, the bishops' wife wrote a long, 3 page letter to me and put it in the mailbox. It was my birthday and when I went to the mailbox, I thought, how nice of her to remember. She remembered it alright; it was a scathing letter, putting me down and telling me I didn't do carpooling right, couldn't do my callings right, and couldn't do anything right. Her and the bishop got divorced after he was done with his "calling". Even if this business/cult were true, I would never step foot in the ward house ever again!

Wow. Burning down the house, that's insane!

Normally people don't leave because one person offended them, it is more likely the organisation not doing anything about it.

If I were to leave the church for feeling offended, I would have left so many times years ago.

I think we should all be offended by the lying TSCC does and the years and decades of cover ups they have done about their history. Being offended by all of this garbage would seem to be an appropriate response.

that is exactly what offended me enough to want no part of it any more!

I can think of several instances throughout my life where I was offended in some way or another by douche-bag holier than thou members but those things never made me want to leave the church.

Discovering the church knowingly lied to me - well, yeah, that is an offense i've yet to quite get over yet.

鍾益飛, my best inference is that church leaders do this because they want to prevent members from questioning certain aspects of it so as to cause members to drift away.

I definitely left because I was offended. I was offended at their theology and lack of doctrinal substance. Mormons are spiritual hillbillies - only other spiritual hillbillies feel fed there.

One of my Lutheran friends told me that she always wondered why Mormons claim that people only leave their church because they are offended. She said "If our church was losing two-thirds of their members because the people who were regulars were so offensive, our pastor would be giving endless sermons on how to be more Christlike." Her point was that Mormons make themselves look really bad by this claim. Mormons, on the other hand, act like there is a problem with someone who just won't stand there and take their offensiveness like a man. Mormons demand you tolerate them, rather than realizing may they should work to be less intolerable.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2017 12:45PM by CA girl.

I think that anyone (whether a church member or not) should be able to initiate a church court against any church member and see it through to a final determination (disfellowshipment, excommunication, or no punishment). It should be run like a court of law with an open prosecution by the aggreived person if necessary. That way the asshole who offends you gets to ultimately decide whether he wants to apologize to you, or to get his ass kicked out of the church permanently, until he does. With no apology, he dies some day as a non-member.

When someone commits a crime, church leaders should also change how they handle that. Currently, the church does what it can to prevent the perpetrator from being held responsible (as in covering up their crimes) for their criminal actions. What they should do it to help the person who commits a crime, learn how to endure their legal punishments.

As things are now, church members are allowed to do bad things to others with impunity. How can that be good for anyone? The church forgives people on behalf of others without having authority to do so. Jesus wouldn't authorize much of the crap that church leaders forgive people for. He probably wouldn't forgive anyone who refuses to apologize to someone they've harmed. So it's not the church of Jesus Christ. It's just a church of latterday sinners who refuse to be held accountable for their actions. How can this be good for society or for anyone involved?