https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/02/07/engineers-assess-spillway-problem-at-oroville-dam/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 08:49PM by kathleen.

Sorry. Should have been spending money on infrastructure instead of bloated pensions and social programs. Now we pay.

Eh? Thought it was raining and water force weight pressure of water on solid substance erode.
Just like they eroded the grand Canyon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2017 12:27PM by paintinginthewin.

I'd like to know how you think that pension systems are "bloated." First, you pay into your pension. It's your money. Second, no one is getting rich on just their pension systems.

Any spending in America to pay for anything "MUST" come at the expense of the poor and retired. We can't come up with the money in any other way. Perhaps we can stack up the poor and retired into that hole to plug it?

Anyone, me included, who is a stakeholder in any pension program that claims a predicted rate of return more than 4.409% per annum is living a lie. That goes for retirees, employees, taxpayers (in case any of their government service providers), and property owners.

Less than 10% of the time in the past century have pension funds been able to outperform the 10 year US treasury rate in the decade forward by more than 2% per annum. There is less than 2% odds of such funds outperforming by more than 4% per annum.

But what we see is that with the US treasury 10 year rate being 2.409% that the majority of pension funds are predicting 8.5%-9% rates of return. That is an absurd unrealistic fantasy that they fool themselves with.

http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/US10Y

A day of reckoning will come for these lies :( Sorry.

or handouts to the oil industry or non-tax paying American corporations? Earned benefits are not the money sucker in our economy.

Bloated social programs.

Yes, we should regress to, say, England during the time of Charles Dickens.

A golden era in history with no social programs, but lots of poor houses and debtors prisons.

That was SO much better. I almost choke up with nostalgia for those good-old-days.

dammit ! I should have noticed the connection between damaged dams and republican bullshit.

All the rain we've been getting has undermined the ground beneath that spillway. It has nothing to do with California's exemplary social net.

Preventative maintenance...frequent inspections...not happening due to budget shifting.

And trillions in tax cuts to millionaires.

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And trillions in tax cuts to millionaires.


Cite, please?
(Quick Google search indicates the opposite)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 11:03PM by csuprovograd.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/tax-cuts-myths-and-realities

"Legislation enacted since 2001 added about $3.0 trillion to deficits between 2001 and 2007, with nearly half of this deterioration in the budget due to the tax cuts (about a third was due to increases in security spending, and about a sixth to increases in domestic spending)"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/revisiting-the-cost-of-the-bush-tax-cuts/2011/05/09/AFxTFtbG_blog.html

"Tax cuts are estimated to have totaled $2.8 trillion, which we guess would count as “trillions,” as the president put it. Strictly speaking, the two big tax cuts during the Bush years are estimated to total about $1.5 trillion, But many continued into the early years of the Obama presidency, and in December he cut a deal with Republicans to extend them even more, which brings us to $2.8 trillion. "

Nah. Statistically, the rich pay the lion's share of individual income tax.

BTW, the federal budget for 2016 is $3.5 trillion. Your 2.8 trillion amount seems to cover 'x' years, but a number like that tossed in makes for impressive shock value...

Your turn...

You provide documentation on how much was spent on "bloated pensions" between 2001 and 2011. Does it exceed even half of $2.8 trillion? I doubt it.

Somebody doesn't like social spending. Are people less important than things?

And even more for Don.

Y'all are right.

To hell with infrastructure. No need to be spending money on that shit...

Is it a shovel-ready project?

I think someone wanted to fix it. :)

Tallest dam in the US, and it's earth-filled?
I'm not an engineering, but, that boggles my mind.

Engineer (autocorrect--grrrrr)

Earth-filled dams are pretty common. It's "dirt cheap" as he joked. Also, dams leak and they do fail, and this happens with severe storms and when a reservoir is compromised in this fashion. He's kinda loopy from pain pills from surgery this week, so here's a link explaining further:
http://www.aboutcivil.org/stability-and-failure-of-earth-filled-dam.html

Thanks for that info, Itz. :)

I spent most of my summers when I was growing up, on that lake. We lived just down the road from Oroville. I'm really worried but they say the dam looks safe, it's just the main spillway, which is eroding because they still have to use it, despite the giant sinkhole-type damage. The emergency spillway has a lot of overgrowth (trees etc) that need to be cleared because if they have to start using it, there will be too much rubbish going downstream and will create worse problems. I heard a rumor that the schools in Oroville have been closed tomorrow as a precaution. Some of my friends who still live in the area said something about being able to hear metal screeching last night, as they tried to manage the different waterways, spillways and alternatives in dealing with the situation. My mom says there is also a problem with the giant pine trees in her area becoming unstable because the ground is so wet and their root systems are so shallow. It was pouring rain there last time she called.

The spillway is a part of the dam, and it has a big hole in it. The dam has provided huge economic benefit, many times more than the loss of a few thousand lives would cost, in terms of bean-counted dollars.

The hole is only the visible part of the erosion, but points to the hidden erosion likely occurring under and within the dam, now nearly 50 years old, the useful age for which the dam was designed. Using the already-eroded spillway to avoid overtopping the dam speaks to the critical nature of the situation, despite "official" public reassurances to the contrary.

Would the officials tell those thousands beneath the dam to stay only at their own risk, knowing that they would be blamed for displacing thousands "needlessly?" This particular dam may or may not fail, but I would trust common sense over hubris and hope any day.

I know some who might argue that politicians (officials) can be trusted to do the "right thing," and collectively act in the best interests the governed. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but neither am I comfortable believing politicians in this situation, when we have no access to what the experts are seeing and thinking.

I think of NASA, the Challenger and the Columbia. Management supposedly learned its lesson about silencing the voices of design engineers with the o-ring failure. The Columbia showed those lessons to be shallow, meaningless and powerless in the face of economoic and political greed.

This is a good point. If they are so sure the dam is stable, why was school closed yesterday in several school districts down stream of the dam?

The spillway was made to prevent erosion, so a lot of new erosion is happening since it failed. I live about sixty miles from the dam, and I can tell you, that if it fails, a wall of water will rush toward Sacramento. At that point I'll be grateful I live in the highlands east of the city. I hope it doesn't happen.

don, are you in the evacuation zone?

If you want to come stay in SoCal, let me know -- happy to provide you a temporary place to stay if you need it. Mi casa es su casa.

Intriguing how, in the face of real danger to hundreds of thousands of people, some of the first reactions were to blame the "welfare state." Ugh.

Maybe bureaucracy is preventing the hole from being patched. Nobody is vested with the authority to handle the situation. It seems really weird that after three days, there aren't steel plates covering that hole.

He explained that:

1. It would be dangerous to use that kind of material plug up this situation
2. If the concrete is still separating and hole keeps expanding, how do you measure the right amount of steel to fix the situation?
3. Where do you put the crane to put this magically expanding piece of steel to fix the issue?

What you suggest is not physically possible, Babylon.

I probably would argue about this if it happened closer to where I live but maybe this does affect me in some way and I don't know about it.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/


Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the part of the spillway that is damaged was built on soil but the remainder is on bedrock.

With the amount of water using the spillway, if the it was so unstable, the structure would be gone by now. I think the major of the spillway is built on bed rock, therefore things are controllable.

Interesting too is the power company removing their lines in the area of the emergency spillway.

What I can see in aerial photos, the terrain in the area of the emergency spillway is mainly bedrock. What erosion occurs will be surface brush and dirt, but the rock will hold.

The dam won't collapse like the Teton Dam in eastern Idaho in 1976.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teton_Dam

today:

http://www.kcra.com/article/water-begins-to-spill-over-oroville-emergency-spillway/8732032

If only there were some spare change in California's budget in the past few years to create more water storage to capture this moisture that is flowing over the spillway to the ocean.

There could be a drought someday.

There isn't enough time left in this century to do all the studies and go through the permitting process to even begin construction of another big dam.

You also have to have a place to build one. South of Oroville the land gets flat pretty quickly, and you can't build a dam with much capacity there.

Are yous guys actually saying you have to have a plan in place to resolve these issues?

Holy crap. What a novel idea.

Maybe treating CA like the climate/environment it is, is the first step?

Nah. That can't be it. It's the over-inflated social programs causing the problems..

Ah. There are no places left in CA to construct dams, spreading grounds or other capture methods.

I see.

Actually, you apparently don't.
There are lots of places to build dams in California, but not on the Feather River below Oroville. As a result the water going out of Oroville reservoir is going to the Sacramento delta and SF bay. If you want to store it someplace else, you would have to pump it there.

Ok. Everything is fine. Nothing else can be done. The rationing will continue.

Pensions are not like social security where your own earnings are deducted from your pay and held by the government until you retire. Pensions are part of an employees compensation package. In the case of public employees their 'package' including their pensions are paid by the taxpayers.

Pension payouts are breaking the backs of many cities in CA.

There are gross abuses of the public employee pension system that makes the problem more severe.

Pensions that are part of an earnings package is earned money. It went to fund the pension instead of being in the worker's paycheck, until they go to retire. In that sense it's similar to SS, not dissimilar. I understand the corruption of many politicians and bureaucrats who gut the system. But there are many more rank and file civil service workers who do not.

In New York the pension fund is managed like a private investment fund, by the NYS comptroller's office.

New York's pension fund is considered one of the most, if not the most, secure in the country based on how it's managed, and invested into the stock market.

When I lived in California for a stint, I paid into a city retirement plan where I worked for a couple of years. Social Security was not an option back then for city workers. Now I understand it is, as the California city (and state too?) changed how they do its state & local retirements - now w/a combination of Social Security insurance it didn't have when I worked there during the 70's. The years I paid into California's system, I did not pay into Social Security.

Social security is not a program where money is deducted from your paycheck and "held" until you retire.

Social security is a pay as you go system. The money that you pay in is paid out to current retirees. Money that is collected beyond that which is to be paid out to current retirees was supposed to go to paying down the budget. That is the reason that Clinton actually balanced the budget. The idea was to pay down the debt so that we would be in a better position to borrow the money needed to fund the retirement of the baby-boomers.

That money (the overpayment to social security) was given away in the Bush tax cuts. So it is long gone.

Too many people don't understand the social security system, largely thanks to the way politicians talk about it.

There is no trust fund. There is no money being held. There is not big pile of money waiting for your retirement. Social security is pay as go until it isn't.

That system worked out okay for Bernie Madoff didn't it? Up until the ending?

Proposed dams temperance flat, sites reservoir, both have designs available, proposed designs. Auburn dam they built a coffer dam then removed it, never built a real dam. Could raise level of Shasta dam, pine flat dam. Lake success dam endangered by newly identified earthquake faults so can't fix that.

If really went wild could use the old Tulare lake basin.

Engineers have talked about warm water storage capture of run off
Not stored in snow. Run off is needed to keep salt water from encroaching into delta river or region so some water has to flow. In event warm storms become the norm, water storage has been discussed at length because of these environmental or climatic changes.

Did I miss something here?

Still can't see the connection between the Oroville dam erupting, and pensions being responsible for the flood.

Old age pensions as others point out, are earned, not a dole.

Why wouldn't the taxes support infrastructure, including state & federal funding? Is it because the money dried up that the dam broke?

Well damn, just damn!

BREAKING: Oroville under immediate evacuation as spillway collapse feared

4:45PM PST: Officials warn of “imminent failure” at Oroville Dam’s emergency spillway

5:00PM PST: Butte County sheriff: “This is NOT A Drill.”

5:15PM PST: Evacuation center at Silver Dollar Fairgrounds

5:30PM PST: “It’s uncontrolled. It’s uncontrolled.”

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-and-drought/article132332499.html#storylink=cpy

More info:

An evacuation has been ordered:
http://www.kcra.com/article/evacuation-orders-issued-for-low-levels-of-oroville/8735215

2nd Edit:
"Officials are anticipating a failure of the Auxiliary Spillway at Oroville Dam within the next 60 minutes (5:45 p.m.),"

3rd Edit:
ALERT-ALERT-ALERT -- Yes, an evacuation has been ordered. All Yuba County on the valley floor. The auxiliary spillway is close to failing. Please travel safely. Contact family and friends. Help the elderly.

4th Edit: Live Stream
http://fox40.com/on-air/live-streaming/



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2017 09:03PM by jiminycricket.

She called to say she's inviting people she knows to sleep on her floor so they won't have to go to public school gyms tonight.

This WAS a post about a dam in California at risk of failing. WTF happened to that?

Hi, Lethbridge.

Yes, the auxiliary spillway is failing now. People in CA city of Oroville and counties: Yuba, Butte and Sutter are evacuating.
160 thousand have evacuated already. Some shelters are at maximum capacity.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/12/oroville-dam-live-update-spillway-is-in-danger-of-failing/

This isn't rocket science. If the spillway goes, the water flow will eat into the concrete-covered, earthen dam. It doesn't matter what the earthen dam is setting on; gravity and water will win.

The only hope is if the spillway remains intact long enough to lower the lake level enough to repair the (earthen) spillway. Dropping fill into the hole, repairing (cement) the hole, does not address the cause of the hole. Newer, stronger materials will help, but the dam is covered in the same original material (cement) as used on the spillway.

Were I in Sacramento, DON, I would be prepping. Not for anything would I want to induce irrational fear, but my loved ones would be told to get out now. It's not just being on high ground for any actual event, but the exodus, then chaos and lack of fuel, power, shelter and supplies likely to follow. You describe yourself to be in that exodus path. It's regional, so secure a different region for a while. If the structure remains intact, you've had a nice litte get-away, no harm done.

Best advice ever, dammit!

Florence Scovel Shinn wrote "The Law of Non-resitance" (of water in this reference). Good reading for lots of reasons.

Basically, water finds a way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 09:30AM by kathleen.

Been involved in a few evacuations (fire).

People wait too long.

130,000 have been ordered to evacuate thus far.

Hope for the best, while prepping for the worst!

My thoughts and prayers are with the citizens in the surrounding communities.

My parents lost their home in SE Idaho in 1976 from flooding when the Teton dam broke. Their home was miles away from it, and their town was still ravaged by the flooding.

ETA: Now it's closer to 200,000 ordered to evacuate. Hope peeps are listening and getting as far away as possible.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/potentially-catastrophic-tens-thousands-evacuated-amid-dam-spillway-failure-n720051



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 10:55AM by Amyjo.

Emergency Accommodation, Food, Evac Routes & Rain Forecast 72 Hours California (311)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cIeaTsUvbQ&t=1s