The political discussions were an interesting experiment. I was all for it initially.

Now I see that it's become extremely polarizing.

On the one hand you have exmos who have swung so far to the left that their contributions basically amount to the same kinds of talking points you hear on millenial youtube channels.

On the other hand you have exmos who have reverted back to some form of christianity who are doing the same thing from the far right.

I'm not seeing the type of thoughtful discourse and debate I'm used to seeing on topics of religion, and it just looks like a whole bunch of people talking past each other.

There are politics-oriented forums out there. Speaking for myself I'd like to recommend we get back to the basics here: Recovery from Mormonism.

There, I said it.

Indicating by my upraised hand.

I vote no politics as well.

kvothe: "There I said it."

No, you didn't.

...channeling Monty Python's "Argument Clinic":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

<<I'm not seeing the type of thoughtful discourse and debate I'm used to seeing on topics of religion, and it just looks like a whole bunch of people talking past each other.>>

You could say the same thing is happening to "thoughtful discourse and debate" in general because we have exmos who've gone atheist on one side and exmos who've attached themselves to some other religion/belief system on the other. Or you have the those who are at the "I'm going crazy because my spouse and family and friends and job are all entwined with the church and I don't know how I can leave" stage of things versus the "Meh, I walked away when I was a teenager, so it's no big deal" people. Or those who stumbled upon hidden things about the church, or who studied their way out vs. those who left because they just didn't believe it or were unhappy or whatever.

Surprise, we have differences here, some of them polarizing, some of them tedious. But no one is required to get involved with every thread. You don't even need to read them. The political threads can be ignored.

Who appointed you God?

Really, Amyjo?

I identify as god, so you need to respect my deity identification.

Fair enough?

My pronouns are: his holiness, king of kings, lord or lords, my lord, alpha & omega, or simply heavenly father will do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2017 12:30PM by kvothe.

You come across as sounding authoritarian and all knowing.

So yeah, really.

We're all entitled to our opinions. And it's clear you are as entitled to yours as anyone else's.

Why deprive a good discussion just because you opt out? As Stray Mutt recommends, if you don't want to read something then ignore the topic and move to one you wish to engage in.

There's enough here for everyone. It's a busy forum. I don't have time to read all the topic discussions, do you? If you do, then great. More power to you. As for me, I focus on the ones that really interest me, and ones that I have something to add to the discussion by showing up.

You didn't get the joke. Look up the gender pronoun controversy going on in Canada. Jordan Peterson especially.

So God has authoritah?

Not fair.

Wannabe edited his comment to include his definition of his Lordhood after my comment was made.

Derogatory or humorous, I can see why it appeals to you menfolk.

Not to me. No siree!

I'm the matriarch of my home. The buck stops with me.

Mormonism gots nuthin on Jewish mothers!

I remember a place where you were looked upon unfavourably (understatement) for stating an opinion or making a suggestion. A place called the local stake building (in which the ward I was unwillingly assigned to attend met).

Now I know a place where differing takes are allowed and who knows, may be the thunder bolt some of us need to get our brains back into gear.

Millennials are the most educated generation in history and work longer hours for less pay (and with more debt due to rising tuition costs) than previous ones. We're also less bigoted than any previous generation. If I sound like a millennial, thanks for the compliment.

Never got that as an insult. Previous generations were scared to go to school with black people and thought being gay was a sin worthy of being fired or ostracized. Talk about snowflakes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2017 12:31PM by Loyalexmo.

Loyalexmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Previous generations
> were scared to go to school with black people and
> thought being gay was a sin worthy of being fired
> or ostracized. Talk about snowflakes.

Ouch.
As one of the "previous generations," I'll plead with you to not generalize. None of those things apply to me, or any of my "previous generation" friends. :)

I'm speaking of things that were 'generationally true.' They can be true as a generational/cultural trend without being true for every individual.

I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of the CONSTANT ragging on millennials that people love so much, when actually we work hard, are highly educated, and are trending towards more and more social acceptance and volunteering than any previous generation as a whole. Honestly it's just irritating to read articles every day about how much millennials 'suck' when every person I know works their ass off, has multiple degrees, is working their way out of debt and fights for social justice. It was in response to kvothe's dismissive generalization (a very common one)--not a specific insult. I'm pointing out, really? You want to complain about this generation? Yeahhhh might want to take that plank out first.

And if baby boomers had YouTube, they'd have used it too to connect and get their points across. The same things have been said about every new form of technology, from cars to radio to television to phones. It's a silly complaint to have.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2017 01:45PM by Loyalexmo.

For the record I'm a millenial too.

Yeah--I don't get the millennial hate, sorry. I look around and I see hardworking people dealing with high tuition, higher housing costs than ever before and everyone has multiple jobs and works for various causes. My father's life seems cushy in comparison--he only needed one job to support a family, didn't have a college degree and didn't need one to get a good job and would have spent hardly anything on tuition if he had. Now you need master's degrees for most jobs. I'm not even sure what 'millennial YouTube videos' is supposed to mean.

Amen. A couple of generations back have had much more opportunity than millennials have now in terms of an affordable education, housing, job security, etc.

I really would hate for this riveting topic to descend into the depths of stereotypes and generalizations. But....

Numerous studies find that the differences between the generational cohorts tend to be minor or statistically insignificant. So the difficulties that you are dealing with are not more significant than those before you they are simply different.

As for the social liberalism I find it questionable at best that the accomplishments of your generation are any greater than the accomplishments of other generations. Did your generation participate in the Civil Rights movement, the Sexual Revolution, Equal Rights movement, or even less known social step ups like the Conservation Movement. Sure those before you could have done more but it isn't like they didn't do anything.

I find it strange that you decry those who question your obvious commitment by questioning the ethic and commitment of those who came before you.

Clearly the hurdles you face are significant and the things that you can and have accomplished are noteworthy. I just wonder at your derision of the hurdles and accomplishments of those before you. Is it any wonder that there is "millennial hate" when you say things like "My father's life seems cushy in comparison.."

Dear kvothe
Thank you for my many blessings.
Please bless my hair that it will grow back on my head. Also, is the book of mormon true? It says it is and that I should ask you.
In the name of BYU Boner,
Amen

Your prayer did not penetrate the veil since you didn't follow proper prayer protocol and ask in the name of Raptor Jesus. BYU boner is a false messiah I sent to test your faith.

Your prayer will be included in this month's Quality Assurance training and your regional angel authority will have a coaching conversation regarding this and other quality fails.

Your monthly scorecard will also be impacted as this is a critical quality attribute.

That is all.

what the hell? I said my thank yous first, then asked for the blessings. Is this not the true order of prayer?
Maybe I should have veiled my face...
Anyway it WAS nice getting a response for once so thanks for that.

kvothe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> On the one hand you have exmos who have swung so
> far to the left that their contributions basically
> amount to the same kinds of talking points you
> hear on millenial youtube channels.

You mean that their talking points are not nuanced. It is more of a beat you over the head with their correctness?

>
> On the other hand you have exmos who have reverted
> back to some form of christianity who are doing
> the same thing from the far right.

You mean that their talking points are not nuanced. It is more of a beat you over the head with their correctness?

>
> I'm not seeing the type of thoughtful discourse
> and debate I'm used to seeing on topics of
> religion, and it just looks like a whole bunch of
> people talking past each other.

You mean that their talking points are not nuanced. It is more of a beat you over the head with their correctness?

>
> There are politics-oriented forums out there.
> Speaking for myself I'd like to recommend we get
> back to the basics here: Recovery from Mormonism.
>
> There, I said it.

To be fair a lot of the arguments against Mormonism that I read here are equally blunt. Pointing out the utter stupidity of believing and dismissing completely any reason to believe.

I think that the difference is that we all hold, to some extent, the same opinion. That Mormonism is not true and that it is also, to some extent, evil. The only thing that holds us together with politics is that everyone that speaks on it has an opinion.

As for millennials. Nope, ain't going to do it.

There are a million places to discuss politics and an endless number of sites to dissect the of properties of "orange thinking."

RFM is our little corner of the world, yea, even a paradise where we can avoid even the appearance of the divisiveness of politics. We have the divisiveness of the Atheo-Theo war to keep us awake. That is enough.

With regard to generalizations of millenials. I have known enough and worked with enough to see that they are as varied as the stars in the heavens. They are neither all super over educated hard working pillars nor useless whiny babies. Some of those are at each end of the spectrum. Most in the middle are each unique trying to navigate a complicated society using their own special set of genes that they were gifted by evolution--or you can say gifted by your God du Jour if you prefer. That may be Kvothe in this instance, newest member of the Pantheon.

Yes, I think it certainly varies based on who you know. But statistically, we're doing well in ways that don't match up with the endless generalizations about us and articles that, ironically, whine quite a bit about us being whiny. ;)

Well said kvothe!!!!

Many exmormons/believing mormons have been victimized over many decades now by the politicization of the so-called church! In todays world, aren't valiant priesthood holders expected to be card carrying republicans? I remember my Dad's testimony being questioned by his high priest group leader when he didn't vote for Richard Nixon in 1972! Didn't mormons just elect Donald J. Drumpf in Utah after he proclaimed himself a sexual predator? I'm sorry but politics is germane to this site/others!

And yes, I get that politics is a bit uncomfortable for some who hang on to so-called conservative values that have destroyed the lives of numerous, unsuspecting innocents!

And yes again, GRUNT can remember Democratic Senators, Congressmen/Governors in the State of Utah - yes, the State of Utah! So, let's not fear a discussion of politics/religion that have intermingled for many decades now! As I have said before, "it can be difficult to ascertain where one begins/the other ends"! Let's not forget, we can also respectfully agree to disagree! As Always, tnurg (GRUNT)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2017 05:33PM by tnurg.

I think that quick deletion of violators may effectively drive that point home.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2017 02:46PM by steve benson.

Thank you kvothe this is recovery from mormonism after all not anything else, hopefully I can stop being a dickhead on purpose just to end political debates but ill do it again if I have to, politics is for political forums only which I am sure are great fun to be a part of I think I'd rather slit my wrists.

Generation Z is coming...lots are leaving TSCC, so lots will be showing here. Let's be careful not to drive them off.

Agreed

Allowing political discussions was an experiment. I think we need a break from it now. It is very polarizing. We are discussing it shortly among the admins.

Lots of things on this board are polarizing. We cant ban them all. We are living with an adminstration who is promoting religious bans, putting God back in the schools and pandering to the religious right. That seems to me to be more important than.drinking threads, what are you.doing on sunday or another discussion aon JS's sex life.

Anything is better than talking about a mental illness that the president was never diagnosed with and I mean anything, a lot of ex-mos actually have real mental illnesses so it's not a light subject to joke about.

I don't think it's fair to say that just because the President hasn't been diagnosed with a mental illness means it can't be discussed.

First, we don't know that he hasn't been diagnosed with a mental illness. He may have been and it hasn't been made public. Second, the mental illness we're talking about is one that would be very unlikely to be diagnosed by a physician as people who suffer from said illness think they're just fine and don't typically seek mental health care.

I mean he's the POTUS for Christ's sake. I think we get to say/speculate/argue anything we want about him. If he can't stand the heat, he should get the hell out of the kitchen.

That said, I agree with the other posters, I don't think this forum is suitable for political discussions as they frequently suck all the oxygen out of the room.

For exmos:

What are you drinking threads can be every bit as healing as dissecting the latest intel on the PoGP or a picture of the newest temple.

What are you doing on Sunday threads are full of people's joy that no matter what they're doing on The Day Formerly Devoted to Joseph Smithdom it's infinitely more holistic than mindlessly sitting through interminable puerile meetings, reluctantly showing up for intrusive bishop's interviews about their own sex life or lack thereof more like or attending their 10,001st same old/same old "lesson" on how to baste a turkey to feed up your fella or getting ready for the grand privilege of traipsing to the Mormon temple for literally God knows what good earthly reason.

As for the sex life of The Un/der-Educated Farmer's Boy Known as Prophet, it is instructive to find out about this convicted con man who founded a religion based on the so-called gospel and then demanded obedience to his principles from everyone but himself and his higher echelon.

Hypocrisy abounds in this so-called church, from its founder JS, his immediate successor BY and the leaders on down.

It's revelatory for people to see that.

We can have deep theological debates about the intricacies of all the doctrine that's ever been known in this world. Or politics, for as long as it may be deemed a viable topic for RfM. But we can also have drinking threads and Sunday threads and sex lives of mosquitoes threads.

It's all good. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2017 06:15PM by Nightingale.

I AM FOR IT! Let's discuss recovering from the ravages of cultism instead of politics.

And yet politics and religion are closely intertwined in how closely and strongly people hold onto their opinions and cherished held beliefs. Rightly or wrongly.

Separating them negates the aspect that religion *is* political on so many levels.

So many times discussions on religion invariably lead to politics. Maybe that impedes the discussion of religion when we limit it to only theological discourse?

If I had the $$$ I would start my own juicy political forum, where everyone can be assured that their generation (political party, religion or lack of)is clearly the bestest, gr8est, mostest...you get the idea.

And then I would pass around my delicious, non-fattening but utterly enchanting cookies. And they are safe for diabetics, too!

I would say a political discussion is OK when the LDS Church gets itself involved in politics such as Prop 8 . I don't think this is the proper place to say how much we like or dislike any politician or proposed legislation or government action

I honestly haven't noticed barely any political discussions since the ban on political discussions was lifted recently.

If they are here, where are they?

Doesn't look like they've gained much exposure or feedback on RfM, if they are here at all.

For those who jump into the fray, what's the harm, versus those who don't?

Mormonism does go hand in hand with conservative politics. They're par for the course.

Whatever you decide Eric K., is just fine by me. We are guests after all, and you are the host of this forum.

Thank you for maintaining the decorum at RfM as well as you do!

:)

then I "vote" NO politics. Just too volatile if the goal here is to maintain generally positive feelings among board participants--especially with the current, highly charged political atmosphere in the US and rest of the world, as well.

Thanks for all your work, Eric K and crew!

Agreed it is a very charged atmosphere now in what is usually a Very boring atmosphere

I like political discussions and havent seen them taking over the board. Most posts are on other subjects.As long as it stays that way, I do not see a problem. Other ex Mo boards allow politics and it hasnt been a major problem that I can see. If you dont enjoy them dont read them.

I don't mind the political discussions much, except when I feel attacked for expressing an opinion. That happened only once, and the offending post was deleted. Now I avoid the subject altogether.

Everywhere else I turn I see politics. TV, radio, facebook, other forums. For me, it is a relief when I come here and don't have to deal with that.

Just my personal opinion.

Got to say, I'm always amused by that segment of our society that finds certain speech discomforting and instead of just ignoring it, they seek to silence it altogether. I'm sure I read somewhere that studies show information left unread has virtually no impact on the individual who didn't read it.

How about adding a new shorthand similar to our oft used, "O/T?" Maybe something like, "Big Tent Topic:" indicating it caters to other interests our members may have, but might not be specifically Mormon-related?

Coming from you - the biggest target of mr. Benson - your comment carries a lot of weight.

If you can handle that (and I must admit I do thoroughly enjoy the barbs), then I don't think anybody else has much room to complain. :)

PoliticSUCK.

Agreed I'd rather watch paint dry or grass grow, the politicians don't even know our names or know we even exist, we are debating like they actually represent and know us, they don't. There will always be a wall between us and them, they are the elite, we are not. You are not a debate person for one of them no matter how hard you try, you're not in the upper class. I'm done talking, but basically he's trump and you are definitely not so don't be mad about it and make a ton of threads.

I feel sorry for the admins, AND I enjoy the politics here, because the hardline logic and knowledge of history of certain posters induced(s) a much-needed grounding in my brain.

I thought the experimental new rules forbad mention of parties and names, were to be dicussions of relevant issues without naming names. It must be hell to police the multitude of violations, and typing "POTUS" or "the big orange" only makes you a cheater, not "clever" in any way. Can you imagine the banned word list to defeat cheating? Anyone not "get" my moniker?

I'd like to keep the discussions as they relate to Mormonism, but my respect for the admins' time (and quality of lives) is tantamount to my desire to learn from the great thinkers (as opposed to the flaming trollers) here.

The experiment can be said to have failed because of cheaters, not because it wasn't a good idea, and apropos to the chaotic times. I am ever grateful for those who used logic and history, rather than names.

Passionate identification with a given set of ideals seems to be the norm, but Jacob made a valid point. Learning to find ways to discuss polarizing topics is an important step to healing, which can be more difficult when one is always preaching to a choir.

For a while I was a member of the UU (Unitarian Universalist) church until I realized that even disorganized religion was more religion than I wanted. I remember going to a budget meeting that splintered off into a lot of factions of people with different ideas about how the congregation's money should be spent that year. Afterwards, the pastor apologized to me about the discordant meeting. I told him I found it really refreshing that, for one thing, the congregation had control of the money and were fully informed of how it was spent, and that everyone was welcome to state their opinion, everyone's opinion was valid, and no one was shamed for any of that. After growing up Mo, this was a breath of fresh air.

This was even reflected at home. My parents have a lovely marriage, and I have never once heard them argue. Do I honestly think they never disagree? No. They just never showed that to us. So as a result, as an adult, I have no idea how to navigate an argument with a partner. I tend to put up, and put up until I blow up.

We have the same thing going on here. We were never allowed to state our honest opinions as Mormons. We were shamed for it when we did. So we suck at this. I think we should continue even though we suck. We need this. We can call each other on it when we suck and try to get better as recovered regular people having our own thoughts and opinions and not attacking others who differ from us.

I remember the so-called church busing mormon demonstrators from Utah County to Salt Lake City to participate in a demonstration against the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA)! GRUNT was asked to participate/I respectfully declined! In retrospect, this and open talk about Republican Party Politics in various meetings signaled the beginning of the end for me! I/others were also asked to contribute to the campaigns of various Republican candidates including Orin Hatch! In-spite of their nauseating rhetoric to the contrary, the so-called mormon church is very political! Look no further than the stunning State/Local Governments party disparity in Utah! The church also meets regularly with representatives of the Utah State Legislature to discuss pending legislation! Politicians in Utah are always running scared waiting for the CULT shoe to drop it they disagree with the church on an issue! Utah is a theo-political aberration that defies our Constitution - yup, nothing more than a 21st century theocracy at work/everything the Founding Fathers tried to avoid! What an embarrassment! As Always, tnurg (GRUNT)

I second Tall Man, Short Hairs comments and someone elses who commented that those who don't like open discussion don't have to participate. I was hoping that this forum would become more open to political discussion so that I could participate without fear of being deleted for something I said.

Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged.....get back Jojo!

instead of trying to ban them.

I am mostly a lurker...but these types of posts that are opinions about people having opinions seem ironic to me. I somewhat agree with Amyjo...who appointed anyone god? Steve Benson summed it up well...if you don't like a post don't read it. But that's just my opinion.

My view too. If it gets to the point that the board is more political than ex Mormon, then we might have to revisit it, but I have only seen a few political threads so far. Sure they can get hot, but I have been flamed in threads over historical Jesus, other religions, Islamophobia, the hijab, polygamy, marriage age, and even cookies. None of those threads or topics have been banned. The solution to rude posters and personal attacks is to report them and for the mods to delete them. Until political threads take over the board, ignore them if you dont like them .