I am so so so sad. My son and I have just had the biggest discussion about the church. He was the one I thought was more liberal and might leave if given the truth. He said:

1. No matter what evidence I have he knows the church is true.

2. No matter what the church has done to me the church is true.

3. No matter what corruption about all the cover ups the church
is true.

4. No matter about the abuse of power and degrading of women
the church is true.

This boy(man 37) is a chartered accountant, a smart loving son and I cannot save him.

We finished our discussion with a hug and I said I would never talk to him about it again.

I am so so sad. The church made me cry because my life wasnt good enough to them, it took my youth, it broke my back with hard work, it depleted my bank acccount. I am now an old lady with no home, poor health and all I want is to save my son. What a sorry for self fest. This is sickening, but when I was in the church for my whole life I cried because my children were lost (inactive) and now there in and to them I am lost.
It is just such a TOTALLY evil organization. I told him it was all light and jello on the top and the underbelly was dark and deep. What an absolute destruction institution, its deeper psychological abuse is profound. Does anyone understand, do any of you go through this much pain?

I am sorry for what you have gone through. The church sucks.

For the sake of the relationship with your kids, I would be careful not to apply the same "I have lost them" mentality that Mormons apply to non-Mormons. Your message sounds a lot like a Mormon mom mourning over an apostate son. The beauty of leaving the church is you don't have to think like that anymore. Your kids are adults. If they stay in the church, that is ok. Focus on what you have in common.

that you love and accept him no matter what. Why all the drama? I have 7 brother and sisters that are all hardcore lds and I love all of them. Why would I presume to push my beliefs on them? If they're interested they will ask me. I can't imagine getting to the point where I would be as pushy and arrogant as my mom was when my wife and I left the Church. All that did was make me even less intersted in Mormonism (if that were even possible).

Accept your son totally. Show him you love him. Apologize for making the big scene and live your own happy life. How can you even presume to tell your son how to live his?

I agree with Shane G.

We had a life of being forced (that's the way i see it) whilst being in the church. As an adult your son can make his own decisions, but if you can be normal and show how happy you are without the church he will never be able to criticize the choice you have made by leaving.

The church talks about happy families, but you can't be happy in it. You can be happy out of it if you live a life as normal as possible. Not sure how long you've been out of the church but sometimes thoughts and feelings are messed about while you get used to not being a member.

Have patience, examples speak louder than words. Enjoy your life free from the chains of the morg.

Best wishes to you.

I am sorry for your pain. I hope in time he will remember your words as he has more experiences in the "organization". I agree that you should focus on what you can talk about and not what you are now unable or unwilling to talk about. You have done all you can to save him. You need to focus on yourself and making this life as enjoyable as you can. Your chance to be happy is now....maybe his chance to be happy will come in ten yrs. or 20 or even just in 2 yrs. You will never know what might send him into research mode. Just be proud you did your part and TRY to not dwell on this too much.

We are all hurting regarding our families (my daughter is a convert and I hurt about it every day but I learned it is just something we can not talk about) Oh, and his words are... plain and simple... brainwashing....it is not him thinking these thoughts. It is just pat answers he has heard from others for many yrs. Don't look at it as sincere. He has had it drilled into him for so long. My sympathies are with you.

It may be more reactionary right now, especially if you have just recently left. But when both of your lives goes on and they start seeing things from a different perspective (they can't help but see at least sneak peeks of the man behind the curtain), they often let a little bit of their brains come out of cold storage and get used. Don't give up on him, just try to be accepting and hope that he can be too.

Like you, there was a time that I was distraught that some of my children had "strayed." Now I just feel so lucky that they're all out, at least activity wise. My daughter who was married in the temple has even resigned. You just don't know what will happen down the road. Keep positive.

Don't underestimate the power of unconditional love. Just keep loving and accepting your sons and keep religion out of it. You will still have your sons that way and they will still have their mother. My daughter made decisions I 100% disagreed with many times in her life. She knew I disagreed with them but she also knew I loved her completely no matter what. Now that she's moved past that stage we have such a loving and close relationship even though we still don't always agree.

Just keep on loving and let them grow. With your courageous example they will undoubtedly wake up one of these days (unless they feel like they have to put up a pretense to keep their families or something like that).

I completely understand the frustration. We often think that in order for someone to love us, they have to think exactly like us. However, that takes away from the beauty of individuality and their purpose of figuring things out for themselves.
The more important question might be this: Is it more important to strive for a healthy relationship with someone we love, or is it more important to be right?
Again, I empathize, I'm going through a similar situation and I vascillate between wanting to control the other person and accepting them as is. I'm still working on getting my Mormon upbringing out of my system and loving people for who they are, not for who I think they should be.

Ultimately, people hook up with LDS, Inc. (any religion for that matter) for emotional reasons and not because of any truth assertions of said religion. You haven't lost him, it's just that he, like everyone else, has no where to be but inside his own head. And where that head is at right now is with LDS, Inc. You have to let folks have their own journey and not coerce them to have the one we would like them to have.

That said, you're under no obligation to never mention it again. It's OK to talk about where your head is at. I would probably give it a rest for now, and I would never try to convince or manipulate him, but can be who you are. You're not obligated to keep it zipped all the time on the subject.

Best wishes.

difference of opinion.

In my case, if I think there is likely to be a huge difference of opinion that I can't budge, I don't push the point anymore. I just leave it alone.

Here is how I handle this kind of thing. I know that religions are predominately God Myth. So when someone claims it's all "true" --- I don't make a big deal out of it, I just remind myself that it's "true God Myth" and let it go at that.
My answer to those kind of statements in the original post is: OK. I don't need to argue, debate, or try to change someone's opinion. It won't work anyhow. (I came to that firm conclusion after banging my head against the wall!)

One of the most important things I have learned is that we don't have to agree or have the same opinion to be a family and have friends and enjoy one another.
It's OK, in my book, to let it go, let it be.
Recognize what I can change and what I cannot change. The only thing I know I can change is myself, my attitude, my behavior. Everyone else is out of my purview. And, most importantly, that's OK with me.

... to have a mom who cares as deeply for her son as you do yours.

Like your son, my mom is dedicated to the cult. Everything and everyone else comes in a distant second ... or lower.

I'd like to have a good laugh with her. Ain't gonna happen. She knows nothing about me or my life. Doesn't want to either. What makes me sad is that she misses out on some really neat and fun stuff that can do her no harm. Sadly, the cult has convinced her that I am evil and she believes it. Not real fun to live with as I'm sure you know.

That's a hard thing to simply "get over" ... Go ahead and grieve. Move on when you feel like moving on. Don't let the proponents of "getting over it" and "moving on" rattle you. They're still here which is a clear indication that they don't follow their own advice.

You alright in my book, fifteensixty.

Timothy

I'm sorry for misunderstanding, but I don't really see how you've lost your sons.

I didn't see any reference to them cutting you off because they are believers and you aren't anymore.

I didn't see any reference to you cutting them off because they refuse to hear your evidence and denounce their religion.

I didn't see any reference to either of your sons declaring that they don't love you anymore or will not see you or speak to you ever again.

Looks to me like you still have a relationship with your adult children, who, last time I checked, still have the right to practice any old religion they want to practice. And the situation isn't reversed...that I can tell. I didn't see any references to your sons attempting to fellowship you back into the church. So it sounds to me as if they accept and respect your right to worship or not as you see fit. But the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth over "losing your sons" makes it sound like you don't have the same respect for your children. It really sounds like being unable to control your adult children by telling them how to live equals losing your children.

Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


Another thing that always strikes me is the emphasis on religiosity among mormon-corridor families. I grew up in the mission field in a part-member family. Even with the TBM parental units, religion rarely comes up as a topic of discussion. I don't understand how a religion that teaches family togetherness can teach that you can't have a healthy relationship with a family member unless you all believe the same thing.

"I don't understand how a religion that teaches family togetherness can teach that you can't have a healthy relationship with a family member unless you all believe the same thing."

And yet it does, doesn't it? The church preaches against apostates and inactives and so makes those family relationships difficult.

I am wondering, however, do your sons refuse to have anything to do with you? Do they refuse to see you or visit? Do they ridicule you for your decision not to attend or not to believe? If so, they are not following the direction of their own religion.

If I read your post correctly, it sounds as if members of your family have experienced lots of changes in their lives - you were in TSCC & they were out, now your out and they are in. Give it some more time and perhaps they will come to an understand and agree with your reasons for leaving. Sometimes, these things take time. I know from looking back in my past, there was a time when I could never have conceived of being an ex-mo. But here I am on RFM.

I would encourage you to look for ways to strengthen your relationship with your sons and anyone else in your family you want a relationship with. You cannot expect to have agreement on every topic with those who are important to you. Religion will need to be one that you and your sons currently disagree. So look for things that you can share with them and that you can enjoy with them. Put religion aside and work on conveying how much you love your boys for their best qualities. Most of us have family members who are still in TSCC. Many of us have people whom we love and care about and who we are unwilling to give up because they still believe. I would encourage that you resist seeing your sons in black or white terms and attempt to look to who they are as individuals. TSCC will attempt to take that away from them in varying degrees, but you don't have to. Your love for them as their mother is more than adaquate to et past this difference of religious belief.

My very best to you.

Thanks for your help. The whole issue was about helping him avoid the utter shock and despair of a fraud. Love Fifteensixty.

The sad truth, however, is that we can't protect our children from themselves. All we can do is teach them as best we can while they are young and stand ready to support and encourage them when they are adults. I think the hardest thing any parent does is let their children go to make their own mistakes. I understand your grief for their potential pain. It hurts loving parents to see their children hurt themselves.

Best wishes.

You see, that's the problem. I taught my daughters while they were young to be mormon through and through. Now I have to live with that every day.

I am grateful that 2 of my sons have discovered problems with Mormonsim on their own. The other is about as TBM as they come and is teaching his children to be the same way.

You probably taught them love and at least some thinking skills because you are smart and got out too. Plus, your life today is teaching them by example. I understand (somewhat) your pain. I've left Christianity but I raised my children to be Christian and one is and one isn't. (Granted, it's a LOT more laid back and undemanding than Mormonism, but at least I have an idea of how you feel.) Anyway, I think it's important not to beat yourself up. You did the best you could at the time. We ALL make mistakes as parents. Some of them might be huge mistakes. But nothing can stop us from loving and accepting our children and our kids can feel that from us. I'll be keeping your children in my thoughts. I hope it works out with them.

(Please don't think I'm minimizing your feelings here. I'm trying to be encouraging but I understand the pain.)

You have a right to feel bitter and angry. Go with it fully and feel that pain. You don't have to be philosophical about things right now.

But as we all know, soon you will re-group and move on in a new, adapted way. The disappointment is a big let-down right now, but it is true that you'll be better off to release the hope that they will ever see the truth as you know it.

Why? because their motivations are different than yours. You obviously are motivated to choose truth over comfort. That is why you finally saw the light, right? And it took huge discomfort and courage to act on your expanded understanding.

I'm finding in life that I need to stop thinking most people are strong enough to look at the world through new eyes. That takes guts. Maybe it never occurred to you how gutsy you are.

Look, in your life you finally looked truth square in the face, and found the natural consequences of that courageous act, like disappointment and feelings of depletion. But on the other hand, you now know that you can trust yourself. It comes down to you and your integrity, which doesn't give you money or a house unfortunately. But you do have something very valuable, and that is self-respect.

The anonymous folks on this board understand and respect you. We know what it is like, and honor your pain.

As you can see, fifteensixty, there are many of us here who are or have been in your position.

You are in recovery yourself, recovering your ability to think using templates that you chose instead of the worldview which was instilled in you by a cult. They have their concepts and their lingo and one of them is that people can be "lost" like misplacing your keys.

It is not possible for your sons not to be your sons and the bond you have as their mother has not changed because you woke up to some truth here in your latter years. You are experiencing a wave of profound regret and guilt for raising them Mormon and the whole bundle (time, talents undeveloped, money$$$$).

You can still influence their lives by your example, by the person you become without the Church. They know you well. Seeing you happy, fulfilled, centered, joyful and prosperous instead of broken and miserable will make an impact, believe me. But you are not there yet--

Forget about your sons, you need to reconstitute yourself, fifteensixty, because you are worth it. Your life is not over, it only "feels" over because you are looking back feeling like you lead them astray. This is just not factual. The church lead you all astray--you acted in complete good faith doing what you thought was best for them at the time. There are values of leading a Christ-like life which are good, whether they came through Mormonism or not.

Like a poster above pointed out, you don't want to continue being Mormon and just flip the terms. Black and white, now the good guys are the apostates and the bad guys are the members. That's the same judgmental thinking the cult taught you. HAPPY HEALTHY PEOPLE ARE NOT JUDGMENTAL!

So...Number ONe: stop judging yourself as a failure. You are a success just like Neo who chose to break out of the Matrix and experience reality (you did see the "Matrix" didn't you). He could have chose to stay in and so could you. You chose the value of truth over your own comfort and you are my kind of woman. That's real integrity and I'm proud to know you.

Now...Number Two: stop reading/studying about Mormonism and start working on the wonderful path of self-discovery that lies before you. There is a you that was buried and it takes time for that loving woman to emerge as the individual you were always meant to be. There are talents you have, interests you would have followed, trips you might have taken, skills you might have developed, all waiting to come out.

Read "Butterflies are Free" by Leonard Gershe to get a taste of what it means to examine a paradigm objectively. The author has an amazing talent at describing religion/existence/consciousness in an informative way without mumbo-jumbo terminology. A great break-out book.

You are a powerful influence on your children even now, even though you feel powerless. That is an illusion of defeat promoted by a corporation that endows males with imaginary "priesthood authority". Experts will tell you that the most influential person in anyone's life is their mother. You must only use that power for good! :)

Addressing some of your own points: having a house is a liability for an "old lady" because it's expensive to maintain and you're looking on living on limited resources (most of us do). Happiest day of my life is when I got rid of the house and was able to move into my own apartment where I could just call somebody if something went wrong. Perhaps you may be equating financial security or material wealth as a measure of success (or of God's blessings, as Mormons like to think).

That doesn't hold water because the happiest people in my senior world are those with pretty good health who get some exercise, some people to hang with who are not family, a little disposable income (not too much), some interests/causes they care about, a way to be of help to others, and (best for last) a sense of humor.

None of these is out of your reach.

Best,

Anagrammy

I think what gets me is this piting look. My beloved sister, lifetime friend my two boys. I wish I could let them into my brain and see all the primary data and research evidence I have stored. AND FOR THE FACT THAT I HAVE TWO DEGREES IN HISTORY. No they still think I have been taken over by Satan which is a direct temple threat.

After all, they are the ones who are suffering, not you. And if you are joyous and joyfull they will be confused. But it's hard, I know. Sometimes my son still thinks he knows more than I do and all I can do is sigh, shake my head, and wait for reality to kick him in the behind. (Then I ususally lose my battle with temptation and tell him "See?! See what your mother knows?" lol.

You know what else, fifteen sixty?

This too shall pass.

Your adult children are young. They will probably not think and believe the same way in ten years, and ten years after that, some of their views may change again. Like your views evolved and changed over the years, so, too, will theirs. People are dynamic, not static.

The important thing is to preserve and protect your relationships with them at all costs, and to be sure they always know how much you love them and value those relationships. What other people do, say, or how they look at you, is of no consequence to you. Try not to let outsiders' opinions drive YOUR thoughts and feelings. Those are the only things you can control here, so if you let other people make you feel badly, that's actually on you.

The only thing you can control is your attitude.

What to say. I agree with so much. The trouble between logical decisions and your family is a complete world apart. I have always been a boots and all mum in defending justice. There is a great gulf between the families torn apart and the fake smiles of the elite! How
to get my family back to a tension free happy clan seems an impossibilty. Have any of you managed to find unity after resigning?