I'm not sure if this is the right board, so forgive me if I'm posting in the wrong place! General question for ex TBMs: My 23 y/o daughter has been dating a Mormon for 5 months. Her 29 y/o Mormon bf lives with his parents temporarily as he transitions into new career. He has 3 other siblings all married to other TBMs, but the degree of faith practice varies among them. My daughter believes in God but not any one faith doctrine. Daughter occasionally attends family events with her bf and the reception she gets ranges from benign tolerance to warm and welcoming (the one sibling and her husband who are not glued to the church and drink wine -gasp!-adore her). Boyfriend's mom was polite at first but not very warm to her. I don't know much about LDS, but I imagine that her few artful tattoos, and her style of dress is not going down well with momma - that, and finding bf snuggling with her on their couch! My daughter is liberal, educated and all around stellar human being. She and bf are getting serious, dating but they both agree to live together before marriage (his prior LDS marriage crashed after 6 months), and he told her when time is right he'd marry her at City Hall if that's what she wants. LDS mom is the problem. Since this relationship has become serious she is as cold as ice with daughter, not even greeting her when she comes over. Daughter feels uncomfortable to say the least and no longer wants to visit her bf's home (just what mom wants?). Dad and I are Christian Fellowship, we don't care what 'flavor' you are, so the treatment she is getting perplexes me. I said her bf needs to address these issues with his mother and she needs to either lighten up or him move out. Further they best have serious dialogue about where LDS is going to fit in this picture because she has no desire to convert. Do these mixed marriages ever work? What does it take for them to work? Sorry this is so long, but your exLDS perspectives will provide the best answers...

just as long as you have some sort of christian flavor.

Your comment is snide, snarky and completely uncalled for. The OP did not articulate that she requires him to be christian. That is just your uber-sensitive atheist self over-reacting to a benign remark.

The mom's reaction is not at all unusual. TBMs (True-believing Mormons) want their offspring to marry within the faith.

Your daughter and her boyfriend need to have a discussion sooner rather than later about what church they would attend (or not attend,) and how they would raise any potential children. This is a *critical* conversation whenever a non-Mormon is getting serious with a Mormon.

Be aware that sometimes Mormons can revert to the faith after marriage or when the children come.

He should be the one to deal with his mom's attitude. If he is not prepared to do that, it is a big red flag.

Can mixed faith marriages work with a Mormon? Sometimes. The biggest factor will be if the boyfriend wants to continue practicing the faith, and if he is willing to stand up for your daughter to his parents.

This is not a faith that your daughter would want to get involved with, i.e. convert. It is a highly controlling faith similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses. Keep reading this board, because you will want to become fully informed about Mormonism.

I don't know why any non-Mormon would want to date a Mormon. If they marry, their children would be totally taken over by the Church.

They don't hate non-Mormons. They just see every non-Mormon as a potential Mormon.

But I think the parents of a born-in-the-Church Mormon kid would only want their kids involved with another born-in-the-Church Mormon.

(Question: Why do non-Mormons who come in here always seem to know LDS-related terms like LDS or TBM? Just curious, because I notice that a lot. It always jumps out at me.)

I'm a Mormon and I had no clue what TBM meant and it pissed me off that everyone was saying it when I first came on here.

LDS for Mormon Church is well known, picked up TBM from reading here

cherylcat53 Wrote:
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> LDS for Mormon Church is well known, picked up TBM
> from reading here


Ah. I just wondered because I'm an ex-Mormon and I didn't know what a TBM was. I had to ask. LOL

I guess if someone hangs out here, they can pick up the lingo.

OP, best advice for you and especially your daughter is to keep reading. She may be learning, but to be surprised by potential MIL's behavior means she is going in with eyes closed. MIL is exhibiting a mild form of shunning your daughter, treatment which your DD may reasonably expect from her inlaws throughout any marriage. It's also to put pressure on her son, to dump your daughter.

Keep reading, but you can't do your daughter's reading for her. She either will want to know, or not.

Best of luck to you.

What Summer said.

Resentment, most likely. Being a saint was never happiness.

I don't see this ending well.

Generally, the older the devout Mormons are, the worse it is for the younger folks and the less likely plain ol' religious tolerance will win out. Sad but true, in my experience.

Please check out Richard Packham's website and read some of his essays. They are very accurate and will give you --- and your daughter --- a good bit of information for figuring out where to go from here.

http://packham.n4m.org/index.htm

In particular, look at:

http://packham.n4m.org/questionnaire.htm

and

http://packham.n4m.org/inlove.htm

and, particularly, if children are in the future:

http://packham.n4m.org/children.htm

Some nonMormons have made marriage to a Mormon work. But it only works if the Mormon is open-anded and caring enough to truly respect the other person, and if the Mormon spouse's family is also open-minded enough to do the same. And if the family is honestly willing to allow the couple to decide for themselves how to raise any children.

What I have seen is that for a non-Mormon to marry a Mormon adds a huge extra layer of stresses and problems on the relationship that are not there in other marriages. First, to my mind, is what do they do if they have children?

Mormon families will often shun or actively show disapproval for a non-Mormon in-law. They will treat her as a second-class human, and even as an agent of the devil. They will interfere in child raising to a terrible degree, even telling children that the non-Mormon parent is bad, wrong, evil, following Satan --- and should be ignored where religion and morals are concerned. They often will make constant attempts to brainwash the children into joining the Mormon church, even if they have been told not to. They will do this in secret, if that serves their purposes.

The Mormon church teaches children many things that are truly harmful. It teaches a history of the world that is demonstrably false. It teaches practices that are now known to either have no value, or to actually do harm. It teaches mindless adherence to what you are told, and that questioning Mormon authorities is wrong, and speaking out against Mormon authorities is wrong, even if you are speaking out against an authority who is doing something harmful or evil. You must never criticize anyone higher than you in the Mormon hierarchy. Absolute obedience is the highest value in the Mormon church.

Female children are taught that their only value is as wives and mothers, and that they must always subordinate themselves to their husbands, bishops, and all other Mormon leaders. Righteous Mormon women will be plural wives in the afterlife, and they have no choice in this. Unmarried Mormon women are inferior creatures, and will be assigned to some husband as a plural wife, after death, if they are righteous.

And through all of this, they hypocritically bend the truth to pretend that they value women so very highly.

There is too much else to list, but check out Richard's websites and encourage your daughter to think about this seriously. The Mormon church is an awful place to raise children, if you value honesty, a sense of personal worth, and think that women have more choices than married motherhood and housekeeping.

.

It sounds like the boyfriend needs to slow down. Realistically, how does he intend to be an equal partner for your daughter if he can't take care of himself? It sounds like she might be falling for a freeloader. It would be faster and easier to get away from religious fanatic mom by moving in with someone.

A heavy duty TBM would look at a 29 year-old child who is unmarried and doesn't already have 4 or 5 kids as a failure--*thier* failure. Just think how embarrassing the Sacrament meetings are when people whisper about "He's dating a 23 year-old *non* member, with tattoos!"

But then again, same goes for plenty of Jewish, Catholic, Muslim and Evangelical mothers and fathers.

My son dated a Mormon girl for over a year. She was no longer a true believer but pretended in order to please her family - they threatened to pull their financial support for college, etc if she didn't at least go through the motions.

He would go to church with her and her family occasionally, met with the missionaries at her family's request, but made it clear that he would not convert.

Once that became clear, her family turned vicious - to both of them. I won't go into a lot of detail but I was shocked at the terrible things they said and did.

They broke up and I am glad. She married a few months later to another Mormon just going through the motions to please his family.

My son is now engaged to a wonderful never Mormon girl. We adore her and her family treats him like a prince.

I don't know what the future holds for your daughter, but if she stays with this young man she can expect to always be treated as a second class citizen. She needs to be prepared for it.

On the bright side, they will always be at your house for the holidays.

notloggedin Wrote:
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>
>
> On the bright side, they will always be at your
> house for the holidays.


Why will they always be at OP's house for the holidays? I'm missing something here.

scmd Wrote:
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> notloggedin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > On the bright side, they will always be at your
> > house for the holidays.
>
>
> Why will they always be at OP's house for the
> holidays? I'm missing something here.

Who wants to spend the holidays with people who are going to look down on them? Wouldn't you rather spend your time with people who accept you and love you whether or not you share the same religious point of view?

I was raised Mormon and left the church for thirty years, before coming back a few years ago. During that long gap, I attended a few different churches - one for several years. In every church I ever tried, there were some strict adherents that were distainful of other religions.

In short, it isn't necessarily a Mormon thing.

That said, the Church is very insular. Perhaps it is rooted in a history of persecution and ridicule. Maybe it has to do with the strong ties of mutual support that are encouraged between members.

One more thing if it helps. The same group that can make nonmembers feel unwelcome acts just as unkind to other members. In my small ward, once or twice a year, I hear the familiar story of a member who has quit coming after being chastised by some holier-than-thou who just couldn't keep his (or her) opinion about somebody else to himself.

I would say the number of people like your daughter's bf who suddenly go all ballistic Mormon again once the kids come is high. Or at least high enough that this should be major consideration now.

Unless the BF has done his homework and realizes the Mormon church is a pack of dangerous lies, the mixed marriage is a gamble.

The mother in law will NEVER stop trying to indoctrinate the kids. Ever. She will consider that she is doing what Heavenly Father wants her to do and so the rules of a polite society do not apply.

Done & Done Wrote:
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> The mother in law will NEVER stop trying to
> indoctrinate the kids. Ever. She will consider
> that she is doing what Heavenly Father wants her
> to do and so the rules of a polite society do not
> apply.
^^^^ This. I'm on the other side of it. I was born and raised Mormon, but at 18 decided I wanted out. I married a never-Mormon...but my parents treated him like absolute shit while we were dating. They tried to break us up and tried to turn my siblings against me. They couldn't handle the fact that we were living together...or 'living in sin' as they would say. Things slowly got better after we were married...or once that piece of paper made it legal. Fast forward to when we had kids. My mother is the one who is trying relentlessly to get our children sucked into the cult. Even though I still have no intentions of ever participating in that church ever again, I know she will never give up. I often feel bad that my husband has to deal with my Mormon baggage. I don't recommend a never-Mormon getting mixed up with a Mormon. It does suck being the ex-Mormon, though, such as myself. What choice did I have? I certainly wasn't going to get involved with a Mormon.

Good luck to your daughter, but she should have more information before committing fully.

It sounds like your daughter has a boyfriend problem. If he can stand back and allow his mother to be as cold as ice with her, he is not worth dating.

Exactly... no 29 year old should let his mother get away with that. He should man up and at least move out if he is really serious about building a relationship with this girl.

They both need to be here reading too (and mormonthink, cesletter, lifeaftermonmonism, red it, UTLM, etc.) if they want to learn anything. Without much knowledge (about lds matters), there isn't much hope. Good luck.

My sincere thanks to all of you for your forthright and insightful feedback - all of which I've provided Kendall benignly as thoughts for consideration or questions worth discussing with Scott. She will face some painful ramifications should she choose to stay outside the perimeter of LDS but allow her children to be raised within it. Everything she is and everything she believes in will not be abrogated - but her kids would be taught that she is ungodly (bad, wrong) and she owes it to herself and the children she will bear to educate herself thoroughly and stand up for young ones who will not be able to stand up for themselves. Resources are plenty to lift the veil on LDS and see it's true nature - in her court, prays she does it. TYSM again.

Mormons are blind. She needs for her future mil to (be able to) see.

Best wishes

cherylcat54, is your daughter's bf's family from Utah?

No, California - but his family LDS history goes back to the 1800's ...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2017 01:25PM by cherylcat54.

I was born lds, grew up in Utah and met my (non lds) husband shortly after high school. We got married at 20 and I was so sure that I was to be the one to introduce " the truth" to my husband and his family! I remember how heart broken I was when I realized he had no interest in ever converting, something that he had told me many times before we ever got married, it just didn't sink in for awhile. But he was okay with me going to church and later with my taking our kids. He would come with me sometimes, but he didn't like it. He never asked me to stop believing or stop going and it was tough going with all the kids and without him. I thought it was my burden to bear. Then I started to realize that most of the people in the church treated our family different, especially after dh made it clear he wasn't going to convert. The church would always remind me that if dh made me choose between him and the church I would have to choose the church. Dh never brought this up. Eventually I realized how much more I loved my dh than the church and he never put conditions on me for his love and respect(the church did) I have been out for 2 yrs! My marriage is stronger and we made it through the part member marriage(15yrs) because he has always supported and respected me, even if we didn't agree. If your daughter and bf can do that and be open about expectations, they have as good of chance as any marriage. He has to stay or leave because it is his discission, he needs to give her the same freedom and never pressure her to join either. Good luck!

I understand an adult coming home to live while he searches for a place. But that is the key, is he looking for a place of his own or just living with mom? The other thing to consider is, does he defend her to the point he will risk his relationship with his mother? If not, she needs to find someone else.

My advice is that your daughter needs to confront her boyfriend's mother and her boyfriend.

If the relationship is going to work, it will require that her boyfriend refuse to allow his mother to mistreat her. Bf's determination to cohabitate before marriage is not within Mormon standards, so he needs to own those decisions. (At this point she probably chooses to believe that your daughter is luring him away, rather than that is what bf has determined he needs to do.)

If this cohabitating becomes public knowledge then bf may be excommunicated from the church and/or design to resign instead. So your daughter needs to have a discussion about what bf is thinking and wants for himself and both of them going forward. (I'm not personally a fan of letting men try on women in a live in arrangement before committing: I just don't see what women get out of that and I've seen too often where men are essentially using women to escape making the commitment.)

And if your daughter cannot directly ask her about what she is doing, and why, that doesn't bode well for being absorbed into the family. Maybe she could try, "You used to be polite at least. Last time I was here you didn't even greet me. Are you trying to snub me or run me off, or is there something else I need to know about how to get along in this family? I get that you don't like your son dating someone who isn't of your faith, but I have always thought that Mormons believed all of us are beloved sons and daughters of God, regardless of our faith or anything else. Am I wrong?"

Your daughter might find some understanding of what his religious faith entails by reading Mormonism for Dummies. But she should know that every Mormon family lives their faith somewhat differently. In some homes children grow up thinking that the way they practice Mormonism is the only righteous way to do so, but in fact there is wide range of actions that are consistent with most commandments and doctrines.

Good perspective, lolly - I appreciate your input. Bf married a Mormon girl (under great pressure from his parents and the church) at 22. The marriage lasted 6 months. I did not co-habitate before my 1st marriage in the Catholic Church (I'm a recovering Catholic, lol! - but have belonged to a Christian Fellowship congregation for many years now) - also a sacred covenant "by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring". It didn't stop my husband from being a wife beating alcoholic or cheating on his spouse with a woman he met in rehab and that marriage ended 7 years later (child free, thank God!). I was blessed with finding my Christian life mate soon after, we lived together a year before wedding, and we have 28 years of marriage now, still going strong. The end of a marriage is painful - and I learned expensive - not just financially but mentally, emotionally, practically and tactically. There are no guarantees that living together will ensure a long term marriage - but there are few shadows to hide in when living together, and rather my daughter and her bf take time to confirm they are equally yoked by living together before before putting a ring on it. Having said all that, I cannot even fathom my daughter confronting TBM mom at this stage of the game! (confrontation in any form is a big Mormon no no, isn't it?). BF is no kid, it is up to him to set the boundaries down and support my daughter, which he seems to be doing. At some point I plan to open up a dialogue on all this directly with BF (this will be to my daughter's horror), because if he is going to ask her parents for her hand in marriage, he can also speak to how we can expect dynamic to play out between his his TBM family and ours.

The Mormon cultural response is inflexible.

Treatment of outsiders in non mormons romantic relationships with mormons without Mormon conversion are in flexibly seen as aberrations
And treated with social contempt both directly and unapologetically.

Even when a romantic partner converts Mormon culture promotes a social hierarchy where converts are cared for but beneath or lower respected spiritually or their religious and behavioral constructs always suspect or less than .... because they weren't born and raised in the church.

This religious cultural bias is inherent as a racial biased response although the culture does contain it's own specific racial discrimination both subtypes historically and in released lds scriptures lds priesthood experts commentary & dogma.

If you have witnessed visceral bigoted open unbidden unapologetic contemptuous and unhidden even proud righteous direct racial social hostility directed publically in the past at a mixed race couple
Then
You understand what is directed at the non mormon
In a committed romantic relationship with a mormon but expressing disinterest or unwillingness to convert to mormonism.

The only response which brings the slightest cultural acceptance is eager submissions to all Mormon dogma coupled with instant compliance with all mormon beliefs behaviors and repudIAtion of past non mormons beliefs and behaviours for life including apologic attitude for being born
And raised into such non mormon belief a b do behaviors... also expressing profoutdoor relief gratitude and undying cloying gratitude and appreciation for the mother in law leading her into a wonderful superior Mormon life which is culturally better than the past culture she had so she received the restor edit gospel or would have in effect or in fact ruined her life.... and everyone Mormon knOwsley it. So as a convert culturally she'd need to express constant gratitude <for her mother in law saving her>

Well basically from you. And your culture and beliefs which are not mormon.

Is this hatred? Or religious cultural indoctrination? Or bias and discrumination? Whatever you label it you non converting daughter is culturally viewed as worldly outsider and possibly sinner or not having the spirit possibly sent by or influeneed by or representingredients Satan. *ie the Devil* Instead of like God. Yeah like awkward.

And if she converts some thing tells me her boyfriend might not find her that interesting anymore (he married Mormon already & badly so he knows how that went)

Paintingnotloggedin Wrote:
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>
> Even when a romantic partner converts Mormon
> culture promotes a social hierarchy where converts
> are cared for but beneath or lower respected
> spiritually or their religious and behavioral
> constructs always suspect or less than ....
> because they weren't born and raised in the
> church.
>

This!

My convert daughter had a boyfriend break up with her because as a RM from pioneer stock he could do better than a convert wife (or so his mother told him).