As an atheist I find my life to be much more compelling now that I'm in control of my actions out of choice instead of fear. When I try to explain this to people they seem baffled.

What do you say when people ask you what the point is in being good without God/religion?

I reply with a question:

"Who is the more moral, the person that does something to win favor or escape punishment of a god, or the person that does the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do?"

I was looking a quote like that from, I thought, Penn Gillette. But maybe he was the guy who said "If you need God to not be an a-hole, you were going to be an a-hole anyway."

Exactly

Just because I don't believe in God, that doesn't mean I'm without compassion for my fellow man. I'm not blind to how my actions impact others. I try to help others where I can; or, at the very least, not add to their burdens.

Also, I live in connection with others; and in my dealings with others, there is a certain level of trust required by all parties involved. If I am trustworthy, people will continue to do business with me; if I am not, they will avoid me.

I try to treat others the same way I want to be treated; and I trust that most others, regardless of their belief in God, are trying to do the same.

That it's the same "point" in being "good" if there were a "god."

Doing so makes life more enjoyable, other people like you better, you'll do better in business and socially, you won't have to keep track of lies you've told, you won't wind up in prison, etc. etc. etc.

If there is some kind of "afterlife" (doubtful, but not impossible), that would just be a side benefit. What matters is here and now.

Howdy Hie, well I'm in total agreement with you. I'd add, just don't be a prick and you'll be okay even if there's a God. :)

BYU Boner Wrote:
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> just don't be a prick...

Have you looked at your screen name lately? <huge grin>

Good advice, of course. For this life at the very least. I won't worry about being "ok" with god, I'll leave that to others. If there is one (a "god"), he should be more worried about his supposed actions and the ones done in his name not being "ok" with lots of us humans...I've never ordered anyone to wipe out all the humans in a city except the young virgins, letting the fighters keep them to have sex with. According to the stories, he has. Multiple times :)

Right-on, to all of the above. Why on earth is god needed in order to be good? Or for goodness to develop? The world works better if you treat each other well. No outside authority needed.

(I was once graded down severely for this reason, in an essay that I wrote in college --- at a secular university. The subject was "Why not steal?" I wrote about what the folks above said. The instructor noted on my paper that he could understand and agree with all that I wrote, and that the paper was beautifully written, but that none of my arguments had any validity if I didn't include duty to god in the equation. So I got a "D" on a very well-written paper.)

I think there are errors in the argument on both sides. I think it wrong on the part of believers to claim that non believers are without sound morals or ethics. Additionally, I think many non believers, especially those coming out of Mormonism, make the mistake of thinking that believers perform moral acts as part of some process to curry favor with their God. The crux of a great portion of Christian though is that salvation, the ultimate favor of God, comes through grace we do not deserve rather than by anything we actually do in an effort to curry some kind of favor.

kentish Wrote:
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> Additionally, I think many non
> believers, especially those coming out of
> Mormonism, make the mistake of thinking that
> believers perform moral acts as part of some
> process to curry favor with their God.

You make some good points.
I'd just like to point out that I don't make any such assumption or generalization -- but that I've specifically had a fairly large number of christians TELL me directly that's the case.
Usually it's in the form of, "How do you expect to go to heaven if you don't follow Jesus?" clearly indicating that they're "behaving" so they'll get into heaven. :)

The "grace vs. works" argument may be quite old and hotly debated in theological seminaries, but in my experience the lay people don't bother with it.

kentish Wrote:
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> > Additionally, I think many non
> > believers, especially those coming out of
> > Mormonism, make the mistake of thinking that
> > believers perform moral acts as part of some
> > process to curry favor with their God.

I agree with you that it is inaccurate to assume religious people only do good acts to curry favor.

In my personal experience being raised in a TBM family I recall many times my family said things such as "I hope I'm getting lots of brownie points in heaven for doing (blank)" I'm aware they were saying this in jest however there is generally a hint of truth in humor.

Additionally I have been asked why I am a good person without God by family members, friends and co-workers pretty regularly which leads me to believe many of them see no point without a belief in God. Maybe this assumption is unfair.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 11:47AM by beckyannawesome.

Valid points also and of course I can speak only principally for myself. I think the question of "how do you follow Jesus" is an interesting one which I see not as an issue of checking off the dos and don'ts on some list as a measure of a person's level of following but an evolution of what is called the heart to instinctively do what he would do as you understand it. The four Gospels contain few direct commands or rules yet I believe if they were all we had they would contain enough for us to know how to live life in emulation of Jesus.

beckyannawesome Wrote:
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> What do you say when people ask you what the point
> is in being good without God/religion?

Because I'm not a psychopath or sociopath and have little desire to harm others around me. IDK, why do religious people have to do good because they're scared of getting punished? Why not do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do?

There was some study not that long ago that showed that children raised in non-religious households were more ethical than their religious raised comparison group.

It's not even about life being more convenient because people get along better that way. It's just not about me. I'm good because I recognize the impact my actions have on the world around me, so I choose to have discipline, kindness, and self-sacrifice to fulfill my standards of what is right and wrong. I don't have anyone excusing my sins, and I would hate to be someone who is adding to the world's problems instead of trying to remedy them. It's the little things like being kind to the people in my community, having humility in admitting when I'm wrong and working harder, and not over-consuming that help me lift up my home and community. The opposite would be to do what's best for oneself regardless of how anyone else is affected, which I find disgusting. I think few people are completely neutral wherein they only think of themselves but wouldn't compromise morality for their own gain, but I personally disagree with that as well because I like altruism.

Because God doesn't exist, God doesn't affect morality or ethics. God is like the Easter Bunny, or a Star Wars character, or a stillborn calf on a 19th-century farm: irrelevant to my behavior.

More salient: What's the point in being a good person WITH God? Better not to allow illusion to get between one's thoughts and one's actions.

What is the point of a god if you're not?

A belief in God didn't seem to help Joseph Smith be a good person.

I have found that since I dumped the church and god, I have become a more caring, loving, compassionate person in all facets of my life.

It seems that when I had god in my life I was more aware of doing good things for the "blessings" that would follow. It is almost like I was thinking more about what I had to gain as opposed to thinking of others and what I had to give.

Now I am a good person because I WANT to be good. I want to help when I can without the expectation of a reward or even a "thank you". My "reward" is knowing that I helped in some way...that I came to the aid of someone else to make their life better/easier today. That makes me feel good...and I don't need some god to bribe me to do so.

so if you don't have religion you might as well kill yourself.

I get what you mean by it but just so we are clear.

Do you mean better like that steak was good? Or do you mean competent like a good doctor?

Good is simply the better and best things that our society finds commendable and right. A good meal or a good person don't need god to define them as good.

So why be good? Because our society frowns on non conformists. Not to mention that for the most part the needs of the whole are represented by the values of the whole. That means that if you aren't being good you aren't necessarily contributing to the success of the society. Which would cause society a bit of consternation. They might even want to kick you out or at least put you in a place where you can't cause it any harm.

In Flannery O'Connor's short story, "A Good Man is Hard to Find," the grandmother encounters an escaped convict called "The Misfit." Here is part of their conversation:

"Jesus was the only One that ever raised the dead," The Misfit continued, "and He shouldn't have done it. He thrown everything off balance. If He did what He said, then it's nothing for you to do but throw away everything and follow Him, and if He didn't, then it's nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can-by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness to him. No pleasure but meanness," he said and his voice had become almost a snarl.

"Maybe He didn't raise the dead," the old lady mumbled, not knowing what she was saying and feeling so dizzy that she sank down in the ditch with her legs twisted under her.

"I wasn't there so I can't say He didn't," The Misfit said. "I wisht I had of been there," he said, hitting the ground with his fist. "It ain't right I wasn't there because if I had of been there I would of known. Listen lady," he said in a high voice, "if I had of been there I would of known and I wouldn't be like I am now."

God or not, there is just something intuitive and observational that says life works better, individually and collectively, when people act "christlike". Call it karma, bojaz, or cosmic energy from an unknown source, but who wouldn't rather live by Lincoln than Stalin.

hate breeds hate...

I don't mean that in a biblical way, but in a very human way!

http://www.drmartinlutherkingjr.com/mlkquotes.htm

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
- Marcus Aurelius

I love you guys! It's so great having philosophical debates like this and no one trolling! I know that doesn't always happen, but it really is great. Ok I think that's enough feelings from me for today.

What is the point in being "good" if there is a God, or is it really possible to be "good" if there is a God?

Assuming we are talking about the biblical God, Christians claim they will be forgiven all their sins if they confessed to God or if they simply profess belief in God and Jesus. So, why be good? God will forgive you anyway and you get to go to heaven even if you do terrible things.

Again, assuming we are talking about the biblical God that commanded the Israelites to commit genocide in Canaan (right after commanding them not to kill), is it even possible to be "good" with such a God?

Dan Barker tells a story of debating a Pastor and he asked the Pastor if God commanded him to kill Dan Barker, would he do it? After initial refusal of the context of the questions, Dan asked that if the Pastor was completely convinced that it was God commanding him, would he kill Dan Barker? The Pastor said he would. The Divine Command Theory "proposes that an action's status as morally good is equivalent to whether it is commanded by God." All sorts of atrocities have been committed by people because they believed God commanded them to do it. If it was truly God (how we can tell is anyone's guess) then it was morally good. Can anyone be "good" with God?

Even if their concept of "good" is what you believe to be evil?

Do you believe it is?

There is so much subjectivity inherent in your question that it's impossible for me to answer with anything conclusive.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
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> Even if their concept of "good" is what you
> believe to be evil?

Since "good" and "evil" are subjective, whose subjective definitions are the most-used in a society is a nearly constant battle.

Me, I like to keep things simple...if it causes harm to others, it's not "good." If it doesn't, then it's entirely up to me to decide if it's "good" or not.