So we are once again approaching that glorious time of year when so many young people graduate and are let loose from the prison house called high school. They are all so young and naive, so full of hormones, so full of themselves... I'm wondering how do you navigate letting kids have big dreams versus squashing them with the realities of this world? that most men live lives of quiet desperation?

First a story: I have a relative who's son was exceptionally bright, he was in all the advanced placement classes, passed Calculus in HS. Great personality, friends with all the uppity Utah kids from the wealthier families up on the bench. He gets a full ride scholarship and has the capacity to be a Doctor, an Engineer, but decides it's too boring and wants to spend his life on an English degree? Now he's taking classes on Emily Bronte, and Bram Stoker. All very interesting but not at all useful in getting a marketable degree, right?

All the while the University is more than willing to take all that government tuition money in turning out lefty-liberally educated young people in humanities majors who are practically unprepared for a "merit" based world, where skills are valued, competition is reality, and only capitalism actually matters.

Contrast this with what I was taught as a teenager by my grandfather. I once had big dreams and even spent time in University. After I told him what I was doing he said something along the lines of "you'll never get a job studying that, and your only good for digging ditches... and anyone who pays you more than minimum wage is a fool." I paid no attention to the old geezers advice went on to get educated and spent 4 years in a lefty job that left me realizing the world is seriously messed up. Now I'm back to a no skills, digging ditches kinda job with people who barely speak English, It's based on merit, pays well, and am enjoying that much more.

But where do you strike a balance in encouraging kids to dream? But still prepare them for the reality of hard work?

My daughter graduated with a degree in Vocal Performance, so digging ditches may be a great job choice.....

My daughter is finishing up her freshman year at U mass Lowell, and I think she has grown a lot in that year away. She was my only child and in a lot of ways babied because of it, but in a lot of ways she wasn't. I was a single mother with not a lot of disposable income. There where things she wanted to do that I just didn't have the cash for. Yet other things that I still didn't have the cash for, but made sure it happened for her.

One of those things was music. I got her and instrument and paid for lessons which wasn't cheap, but what she has got from that is amazing. She plays clarinet, flute, and sax. A year of base clarinet and she also plays keyboard. She was the John Phillip Sousa award winner for her high school class. While it is something she loves, she did not major in music. She is Majoring in medical lab sciences. She finds ways to keep music in her life and that keep her busy. She helps high school kids as a college student in a wind ensemble she was in band, ( which was an extra 3 credits I had to pay for) and also plays at sporting events. In the summer she plays with the community band here.

In a nutshell, she has something she loves to keep her busy!

I agree that it's unfortunate for a child to be raised to think he is a genius. My cousin is a true genius, and he was getting oscilloscopes for Christmas, when we were getting Tinker Toys. He quickly became bored with school, and dropped out in his junior year of high school. He made a million dollars, by the time he was 16, and he ruled over his parents like a martinet. He was allowed to do whatever he pleased, and he was never "socialized." He was one of the first Silicon Valley garage geniuses, along with Hewlett and Packard. He is very unhappy, and borderline crazy, and hoards his money, instead of enjoying it.

If a child is actually NOT a genius, it's even worse for him to be deluded. My neighbors' son was also never taught the social skills. They put him though private school, and then an Ivy League school, and then Ivy League law school. No girls would date him, so he went on a mission, and met a girl there. He liked being a student, so he decided to go back to medical school, and my neighbors are still paying his tuition, plus they bought him a house for his wife and children. Now, the son thinks he and his wife are too good for his ex-Mormon parents, and they rarely see them or talk to them. He plans to be a GA someday.

There are other things in life that are important. Perhaps your relative's son could be humbled by some old fashioned peer pressure, or by athletic competition. "Socialization" is underrated, and is being usurped by electronic devices. Feedback from peers gives a young adult a more realistic view of himself.

My own kids had work experience in low-paying jobs, while they were still in high school. They worked to help put themselves through the university, and to have a car. I helped, but I was a single mother, and could not do it all. My children were balanced with interests in sports and friends and fraternities, and didn't earn any scholarships, but they were accepted to some great universities. They developed a work-ethic, and an independent spirit, that has contributed to their success in life.

It's true that these days a Master's degree, at least, is needed to get a good job. Your relative's son could go on to get his law degree or an MBA. Writing skills are useful in business and law. I went back to graduate school, and doubled my salary. My children learned from me, and they have graduate school degrees, also.

Art, Literature, Music, Theater--all these make great HOBBIES. Sometimes, these pay off, in things like website design, technical writing, and teaching. I taught piano lessons to put myself through BYU, and made more money than any of those student jobs paid.

It is great to dream! While you're dreaming, you can plug along. It's a problem when kids are allowed to skate through life, hanging onto their parents' shirt tails.

Being a genius is awesome as long as the person knows something important. In fact when it comes to people having real knowledge I'm reminded of F&T meetings. The more tears you hear then the greater knowledge you hear. Golly I sure know all about the most important message ever told using the most accurate and correct book in the history of the world :)

My daughter went directly to college from high school. She's done fine in life--is now married, two kids, PhD in clinical psychology, great career and family, now living in Seattle.

I have always encouraged her independence. After college she essentially "bummed around" for over a year--traveled solo through Mexico and Central America, spent three months with a friend in Ethiopia, worked as a photographer in Manhattan and an election worker in San Francisco, did a variety of other things as she explored and then rejected various paths (and boyfriends).

It was all her call. That was the important part. She decided. I never said "no"--I only made minor suggestions around the edges of her existence and helped her when I could (although she's been mostly financially independent during college and after--she's paid her own way).

They're grown-ups. That's how I treat them.

Forbes (and most businesses) disagree with your conclusions.
Says Forbes:

"The career options available to graduates of general liberal arts degrees are far more diverse and attractive than we usually assume. Of course, liberal arts grads need to develop additional skills (either on the job or through separate courses, such as a writer who learns some coding to be a more effective blogger), but the truth remains: Employers in every sort of industry are interested in people with these majors."

( https://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/2016/10/19/what-can-you-do-with-that-useless-liberal-arts-degree/#25f3c49941b8 )

So maybe rather than "guide" kids with pre-conceived notions that don't appear to have any merit in the real world, you can "guide" them to ignore your pre-conceived notions and do what they think is best...?
Seems like a plan.

My daughter grew up poor, that isn't a preconceived notion, its fact! A fact that glared her right in the face...

I have never stopped her from doing what she loves because of it, and I'm glad she understands what I sacrificed to give it to her. Watching her give that back to others is amazing. Facts are still facts though, and its a part of her and how she sees the word now

My post was a response to the OP, not to you.

It's especially vital in the 21st century for prospective college students to remember the importance of keeping their total amount of student loan indebtedness down to a very reasonable level. We're seeing a trend where hiring organizations are weeding out people who were reckless. Thus if you decided to take on unnecessary student loan debt then not only will you have a lot more to pay back but you will have much less earnings to do this on.

Get two summer jobs, be frugal, don't eat out much (and eat healthy), attend community college for whatever classes you can do for lower tuition, go to in-State colleges for lower tuition, major in something useful which you enjoy where you can get better jobs that are meaningful & give you an edge on other graduates in the entry level job market for your major, and go join Meetup groups or clubs (not waste college tuition) on hobbies & special interest learning activities. Always remember that every dime you spend now is like a quarter you will have to save in a decade from now, a dollar in 25 years from now, or $5 at retirement. I'm not suggesting being a stingy miser. Just be sensible.

One last suggestion - don't give LDS inc. your money, time, and talents.

That's a good point. A lot of debt might make sense for someone going to medical or dental school, or to a top-tier MBA program. However a school teacher friend of mine graduated with 60K in debt, which I thought was crippling for a beginning teacher.

Which top tier MBA program grad will get the job, assuming all other factors are equal? The one with 60K of student loan debt? Or the one with 90K?

You might say "the grad with 60K had more help with a silver spoon in her mouth" but please don't forget I wrote "all other factors are equal". And frankly the "amount of student loan debt" is far from being the only factor that differentiates one candidate from another. But let's assume you have Grad A with 60K of student loan debt and Grad D with 90K of student loan debt. All post-graduate factors being equal then who is going to be better off financially in the long run? Answer: Grad A because their exponentially growing debt bill is going to get paid off sooner and then they'll be able to likewise accumulate an exponentially-growing nest egg that much faster.

And besides, what kind of university worth spending a dime on is worth having on your Resume if it lets too many students graduate who can't even understand a basic 4th grade mathematics principle like Exponents. Those who really understand Exponents and have self-discipline will learn to minimize debt and be on the winning side of exponents. Those who don't won't and frankly need to go repeat 4th grade until they learn.

To be fair. (numbers and percentages are way off but as an illustration it works fine)

You said, "Always remember that every dime you spend now is like a quarter you will have to save in a decade from now, a dollar in 25 years from now, or $5 at retirement. I'm not suggesting being a stingy miser. Just be sensible."

I would also say every dime you invest now is like a quarter you will have to invest in a decade from now... Education is an investment and like every investment it requires a not insubstantial amount of information to make the right investment. Don't fall into the trap of not investing in the right thing simply because the cost seems to high. When the decision is to get a good degree from a good institution or not, things like finances should only be a part of the process.

Unsurprising, hie, given that nearly everything that poopstone posts and nearly all of his assertions end up being disproven by facts or simple logic. It also seems that he can't go one post without also insinuating some kind of rant about liberal conspiracies. I have no idea how one could make the leap between the decision to pursue a liberal arts major and the conclusion that one must be left-wing to do that.

On a personal note, I know tons of people who pursued liberal arts Majors with the intent getting that major in order to pursue a career based on the education they received period for example, I knew someone who was a music Major because they wanted to be a high school choir teacher. Perhaps not a career choice that would make someone especially wealthy, but a worthy one none the less.

I also know many, many more people who got liberal arts degrees and then pursued graduate-level education that ended up informing their career decisions. I also know people who ended up with graduate degrees, got into the career that went with their degree, and decided they didn't like it and got a job based on the education they received with their first degree. Or they went out and got another degree.

Well, here's the thing. What you actually study at college has very little bearing on your employability. What college really teaches you is related more to juggling multiple deadlines, being responsible for yourself perhaps for the first time, navigating red tape and paperwork, managing stress when it all goes to shit at once... these are important life skills. They're important job skills.

I don't think it's important at all what someone gets a degree in. I was a journalism major and I bet at least 75% of the people I know who also went to J-school do not work as journalists. That doesn't mean we didn't learn important job-useful skills. (And if you wanna hear whining about low starting salaries, skip right past the teachers and go talk to the journalism grads.)

What I think is more important is that a young person finishes what they started. It's okay to change majors after a couple years -- that happens because some people run into a whole new field of knowledge and had no idea they loved it until they took that one class. But it's important to show that you can pull yourself through a long-haul commitment, whether that be tech school, a trade/craft that requires an apprenticeship, a college degree, medical or law school, whathaveyou.

And you have no idea if that kid is going to take that English degree with him to law school or get an MBA after that or what. Don't just freak out because the kid is 18 and you have grandiose visions of having a nice brain surgeon or rocket scientist in the family. I think you should try to drop your expectations because it's his life and his choice and he has to figure out what he wants for himself. You had your time to make your choices, let go and let him make his.

My opinion is that people with liberal arts degrees need to have a lot of focus and drive when it comes to pursuing a career, because they will need that. I wish I had known myself better in my college years, because given my temperament I would have been better off pursuing a highly employable field. Instead, it took me about five years post-college to get a job even remotely related to my degree, and an additional eight years before I eventually returned to school to get a teaching certificate.

So the best advice would be to "know yourself." Are you an extrovert or an introvert? Do you have a lot of focus and drive, or would you be better off in a field where the path to success is more formulaic?

I think another good piece of advice is to pursue internships while in college in order to build one's resume.

I see everyone here is feeding our resident troll "poopstone". Don't waste your time people...he is not really interested in what you say, but only interested in reinforcing his bigotry.

are you sure your not the troll?
I'm just asking a question to try to learn what other people think (and I often change my opinions if posters are logical)...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 07:57PM by poopstone.

*you're

They have both turned out completely different. My son is obviously the most intelligent of the 2, though they are both very intelligent.

My son works hard at his job, but he hasn't gone to college and I'd like to see him do better. He has some mental health issues, but he works. He also had some drug problems, but those are over for now.

My daughter paid her way through college by working summers in Alaska driving a tour bus for Princess Cruises. She got a degree in history and doesn't want to get a Master's, though her college professor keeps trying to talk her into it. She has moved up in the company of Princess and is now a supervisor. They want her for a higher job, but she is waiting for a job she awnts and has turned them down over and over again. She earns as much in a summer as a school teacher in Utah earns.

My sister has a degree in teaching. My brother dropped out of high school and got his GED. My brother earns $200,000 a year. My sister earns about $45,000.

We were taught to work HARD on a farm by our father. We are all hard workers. I have 2 good jobs doing medical transcription. I'm the only one I know of all my friends who used to do this who still has a job, let alone 2. I have more work than I want right now. I raised my kids alone by working it and paid for my house without help. I had a few bad years right after he left me and I dug myself out of the hole. I'm doing great financially. I have 2 semesters of college.

My other sister works for dept of family services and earns really good money and has a pension. No college.

We've all done well, especially my brother. My other two brothers are disabled. My oldest brother was majoring in Russian and minoring in German in his last year of college when he had a stroke. He was in the U.S. Army translating in Berlin for Russian aircraft that they intercepted from.

It doesn't take a college degree to be successful. My ex had an associates degree and has had the same job for 34 years, has great benefits, and he has his job so well taken care of, he has a lot of freedom that most of us don't have.

I also have worked at home for years and so I was home with my kids.

Oh, my boyfriend's kids with their trust funds had a free education and neither have jobs in their majors. His daughter is working on a coop farm somewhere in Canada right now. No income, just room and board. His son is not working right now. He is getting his realtor's license and going to "flip houses," with his trust fund.

I get really weary of people thinking you have to have a college degree to be successful. I'll reference my brother again up above. The $200,000 doesn't count his bonuses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 03:51PM by cl2.

Do you mind sharing what field your brother is in? That's an impressive salary.

My best friend in college was an anthropology major. She loved her studies. But the minute she graduated she pursued a career in real estate sales, which she has done now for several decades.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get really weary of people thinking you have to
> have a college degree to be successful. I'll
> reference my brother again up above. The $200,000
> doesn't count his bonuses.

You don't have to have a college degree to be "successful." Clearly.
I'd also add that the amount of money you make isn't the sole determiner of "successful."

Nevertheless, people with college degrees *on average* make considerably more than those without them. That's still a fact.

I've never known if I'm categorized with the so called lost millenials I graduated high school in 2001. Can somebody tell me if I'm one of them please.

yes millennials are supposedly born after January 1980. You would be a millennial but can also call yourself generation x since your from the early 1980s. I'm right before 1980 so I'm considered generation x,

Damn I was a millenial all this time and never knew it well I guess I gotta start defending them now.

Look up the article about the "Oregon Trail Generation." While it's always arbitrary to draw a line between this generation and that generation, the article suggests that people born from about 1977 to 1985 are different than millenials and gen X.

Hmmmm gotcha I was always told I was generation Y not sure what the slang is for that group, always felt the millenials were just under me like what you are saying.

I thought Generation Zers were the ones graduating now. Maybe not.

English is more marketable than people think. I got a degree in English and immediately got a full-time job making nearly $50,000 in publishing upon graduation with full benefits when I'd just turned 21. Then got a PhD, getting paid for that, and worked full time throughout it, teaching and also having side jobs in content writing, never making less than $50,000 a year. I make $90,000 a year now and I'm still in my mid-20s, and work way less than 40 hours a week, while I had some pre-med friends who didn't get into med school or were never matched for a residency, so--it just depends on what you make it.

I would encourage an English major to get skills in content creation, SEO, copy editing, marketing, social media, etc., and to have internships. Digital journalism is a very lucrative career. That practical experience helped me get my first job and all my jobs since. It was never difficult to get work and I never looked for a job for more than a month, so I'm not sure why the angst about liberals arts degrees unless I'm missing something or unless you expect to make $300,000 a year.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 05:00PM by Loyalexmo.

Very good, I'm wondering what may have set you apart from most liberal arts majors? Passion for the subject is of course very important but also Perhaps it was a willingness to relocate? Most English majors I've seen never seem to leave their home city or they marry an Engineer and follow their husband around.

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...I'm wondering what may have set you
> apart from most liberal arts majors?

What actual data do you have on "most liberal arts majors?"
Do you know what their employment rate is?
Do you know what their average salary 5, 10, 20 years after graduation is?
Or are you just assuming they aren't doing well?

p.s. no, I don't have a "liberal arts degree." I just like facts rather than assumptions.

hi kolob, I'm just wondering what set her apart. Most don't seem to do as well. It must be a willingness to relocate. That's my guess?

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hi kolob, I'm just wondering what set her apart.
> Most don't seem to do as well. It must be a
> willingness to relocate. That's my guess?

I know what you were asking, I'm asking where you get "most don't seem to do as well" from.

The data doesn't support "they don't do so well." From sources like the Wall Street Journal:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-news-liberal-arts-majors-your-peers-probably-wont-outearn-you-forever-1473645902

Given that, it doesn't seem that she's "set apart" from most liberal arts majors. Wouldn't you agree?

He goes by Hie kolob not hi kolob

I named some of them--I had a lot of practical experience by the time I graduated. I worked in journalism and never was without an internship or job throughout my undergrad years. I was an excellent copy editor and heavily trained in various styles and SEO by the time I graduated. That's important. And I lived in a large city. I was willing to relocate, but I also went to an Ivy and never had a problem getting a job anywhere I tried. But most of the people I knew did well, too. Some worse, some much better. I would say I'm at the upper end of the spectrum in terms of my age group and acquaintances, but certainly not some anomaly by any means. In particular, I started a bit earlier. But plenty of people I know make more than me and graduated with degrees in French, art, theatre, political science, philosophy, gender/ethnic studies, etc.

I also wasn't married at the time, nor did I know any 21-year-old married folks. I didn't know any women my age who were married until our mid-20s, either. Most women I am familiar with in my everyday life are the primary or equal breadwinners or don't share finances with their spouses. I am currently the 'primary' breadwinner in terms of salary in my home though my husband also works full time, but I've always worked longer hours. So we must move in different circles, or maybe you know more conservative or older folks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 10:39PM by Loyalexmo.

I know two people who have degrees in Creative Writing.

They both work retail for minimum wage. One of them wrote a Goth style Romance. It was the worst piece of crap i've ever read. That was 5 years ago, and she's still trying to find a fool to publish it.

I hope she finds a publisher because there's a huge audience of brain-dead idiots – if she could tap in to Drakes market that would be a start.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 08:41PM by thingsithink.

After raising my three and countless others in Pediatrics I have concluded what most of you have. I pass this on to every young person who asks or I engage.
1. College isn't for everyone and is not the definition of success.
2. Speaking another language besides English moved you up in an employer's eyes
3. You have to have an academic, beyond 8-5 interest in what you do. Careers are passion in motion.
4. Think benefits before you think salary.

In sports officiating I run across many young men and women who are wandering aimlessly and unnecessarily. Often they forget that what they don't want to do is important information- just as important as finding what they do want/like to do. And there is clearly a time and knocking on multiple doors factor. So many are afraid to leave a field for another even though unhappy. The first part of my career I took care of adults. Major mistake. Turned myself and the family around and went back into Pediatrics and ultimately Neonatology. As far from adults as you can get.Changes can be made even in mid-steam

Gatorman
Sitting at a Florida-FSU baseball game



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2017 05:47PM by gatorman.

From the first day of high school Spanish I, language seemed like the most enchanting medium to me!

Language in another form was my dream throughout my teenage years: I wanted to be a writer. However, my widowed mother, who was an RN, constantly hammered me with negativity about this dream. She would say, "It's a lovely hobby, dear, but it's not a dependable career." I would point out dazzling best-selling novelists like Michener. She would always reply that they were the exception, not the rule.

When I went to college, I decided to major in Spanish. I'd had four great years of it in high school, plus a summer in an exchange program in Mexico. I was already fluent before I set foot in college.

I loved it even more in college. More language, more literature, learning the nuts-and-bolts of language in linguistics. Since then, on my own, I have taken night-school courses in Italian, French, German and Greek. All have come in handy at one time or another.

Throughout college, my mother always asked me, "But what will you DO with it (Spanish) after you graduate?" I would say, "I don't know, but I will be able to do it in two languages."

That was pretty much how it went. I found myself in a Government job that I didn't really want or like, but it paid well, and since it was Federal, I could transfer from one state to another whenever my now-ex was promoted and moved. No matter where we went, my agency had one or more offices.

In one office, I was the ONLY person certified in any language other than English. My colleagues often brought me documents to translate, in languages other than Spanish. We only had to extract very basic stuff like name, date of birth, place of birth, and names of parents, so it was pretty easy in other languages besides Spanish. The only one I ever had to turn down was Cyrillic (Russian.) I was never confronted with anything Arabic, fortunately.

I have never been sorry that I majored in Spanish. Learning it was a joy, using it just about daily has been one, too.

Writing for what is, apparently, an extreme minority position here, may I propose that at least part of the point of getting an education is, simply and only, to become educated. The experience and knowledge of a real education have value in and of themselves apart from any economic benefit they may or may not confer.

As I see it a big part of our current problems as a nation stem from losing sight of this value. Many of our citizens behave and vote as if they can't think their way out of paper bag, let alone understand the complexity of our national and international economics, legal system, environmental issues, etc.

Regardless what one studies, or whether they use any of the specific knowledge gained in a career, the truly educated person has been exposed to broad range of ideas, has learned to think critically (the real and original purpose of "liberal education") and, additionally, has learned how to learn. All else, career, vocation, etc. are then more easily sorted out.

This said, college is not for everyone (not everyone wants to or can learn), although college graduates should, at minimum, acquire this exposure and thinking and learning skill. I'm kind of surprised at the need to point this out given the value, at least nominally, placed on critical thinking ability here.

There was a time when I would have agreed with you. To a certain extent, I still understand where you are coming from.

What happened is that the cost of higher education has escalated beyond reason. Back when I was doing my undergraduate work (late 70s,) the cost of tuition at a state school (*any* state school,) was minimal. I got an excellent liberal arts education for not a whole lot of money.

Nowadays, four years at my state flagship school (tuition, room, board, books, etc.) will set you back more than $100K. If you are an out-of-state student, make that $200K. That is enough to give any middle class family pause. It makes it a lot harder to justify education for education's sake. One starts to look at it more as an investment toward a future career.

summer, costs have gone up, but...

In 1975, the average cost of tuition/fees/room/board at a 4-year university in the US (per year) was $2,275. That represents 25.2% of the 1975 US median income of $9,000.

In 2007, the average cost of tuition/fees/room/board at a 4-year university in the US (per year) was $15,500. That represents 28.2% of the 2007 US median income of $55,000.

So compared to the median income at least, costs have only gone up about 3% (from 1975 to 2007).

I'm looking for 2015-2017 data. I'll post if I find it.

edit: I found it.

In 2016, the average cost of tuition/fees/room/board at a 4-year university in the US (per year) was $33,610. That represents 57.9% of the 2016 US median income of $58,000.

So a big jump from 2007 to 2016. What stands out, though, is that unlike the 1975-2007 changes, median income was nearly stagnant from 2007 to 2016, rising by less than 5%. From 1975 to 2007, income rose by 84%, and that rise was nearly the same as the rise in college costs.

So, yeah -- college costs rose a lot since 2007, but median incomes didn't really rise at all. That's one reason why it's more of a burden now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2017 08:26PM by ificouldhietokolob.

I concur. I have a B.S. in Math, and although I have not worked since the birth of my first child (seven children in 11 years)I believe that my education has enriched my life as well as my children's and my husband's earning potential.

He now earns almost 10 times his first salary as a government worker (in a foreign country,) thanks to a subsequent degree and his drive and interest in learning and doing quality work. We've also moved roughly a dozen times to get where we are, and my education helped us think analytically about our choices and helped me make those changes work for us.

One of my most valuable courses that I use in everyday life was calc-based statistics. It has helped me wade through countless types and numbers of questions and decisions.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2017 12:26PM by windyway.

In the early 90's I went to a community college to learn a trade. It cost me $10,000.

I made three times that much in the first few months that I worked. In the meantime, I had two kids living in the basement that had higher degrees than I ever hoped to have. They went back to school and learned how to actually DO something.

They've done quite well for themselves, but I have to say that the University Education left me less than unimpressed. There seems to be a lot of very intelligent people out there with degrees, but they don't have a work ethic, or any actual job skills. It's quite a shock to them when nobody is impressed that they were straight A students in a subject that didn't teach them anything that's useful in life.

I've known several 20 somethings that are in this boat. They graduated, and barely knew how to manage a checking account. They were clueless about finances and how loans work. They had no clue how or where to sign up to vote. If they're mormon kids, many don't have any idea about sex. They don't know anatomy, diseases, birth control, or the mechanics of sex. They know even less about relationships. It's a pathetic way to send kids out into the world.

Yeah, trades. But trades that are not tied to the housing construction/real estate bubbles and bad weather slow-downs. Anything medical is also a fairly good bet--physical therapy assistant, radiology, etc.

Also, liberal use of the local community college to satisfy the requirements of those first two college years, that don't differ appreciably from the first two years of high-priced colleges and universities.

There's something interesting about the adolescent brain which usually achieves full maturity around 25: Adolescents and young adults generally don't have the "emotional experience" to adequately process useful advice or what older adults perceive as common sense. They have to make their own mistakes and experience life on their own terms, not others expectations of how they should live their lives.

If your relative wants to pursue an English degree, that's his choice to make, not yours, and he may be exceptional at pursuing, then using it upon graduation. Or he may get bored with it and change his major entirely or he may decide that the traditional college is not for him and pursue a trade school or another venue. But again, it's up to him and he has to make his own way in the world and he has to learn the value of hard work, discipline, and what a big dream may cost on his own. Some younger adults understand it almost naturally, others need life to knock 'em down a couple of times. The worst thing a parent can do for a gifted and bright kid is not emphasize how much effort and work they put into a project and solely focus on how smart a kid is. Hand the parents a copy of Nurtureshock.

This is such an extraordinarily relevant topic, addressed here very intelligently. This aeon, tragedy could follow a poor choice of college major- I know of suicides in the classical music Arts (perhaps they thought the field would get better- but it got worse); a friend of mine, as excellent young man from Middle or Upper Middle Class, decided to major in Philosophy- I remember I tried to "turn him on" to faithist works like "The Aquarian Gospel Of Jesus The Christ" by Levi, which he looked upon only with derision... He loved the women, and wanted one such excellent, most of all- but his trouble finding success with a Philosophy degree prevented desired love acquisition, and he committed suicide. The bigger the Egos are, the harder they fall, we see in cases- sometimes a youth's Ego has been puffed up by a teacher, as in things like ballet or the arts... The remedial, not easy, is made harder by Ego vanity. Liberal Arts would have been my best major- my major choice was not so good; people don't realize, in Vanity perhaps, that there might be nothing or next to nothing for one, if a wise choice is not made early,

What in the actual fuck is this post talking about?

Dude majored in philosophy and because of that, couldn't get laid and because of that, killed himself?

I call bullshit.

I can't even imagine why you thought that post was going to be useful or helpful or contribute anything substantial to this discussion.

Huh?

Most philosophy majors go on to practice law or get a PhD. What are you on about?

very true, There is time to pursue ones dreams but I think people need to separate a hobby (reading Shakespeare) from making a career, such as medicine. And as people get on with the years their options start disapearing. Financial aid gets used up. Kids end up married and saddled down with responsibility. Responsible choices early on are what's important.

But yes I suppose people get discouraged over getting swindled by academia and some may commit suicide?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2017 07:43PM by poopstone.

Um...You still think there are no careers that are related to literature or writing? Still?! There are plenty. Careers are not only in the STEM field. That's a very limited view of the world. Plenty of careers value humanities degrees or require them, and in today's world you will need a master's for any career anyway.

You make a lot more as a literary agent than as a nurse.

I'm surprised by the number of people who say MBAs are practical. They're really not. They're cash cows.

I make a full time living doing nothing but writing and know plenty of others who make full time livings in theatre and music. In an expensive city...And not just scraping by. Not millionaires, but definitely middle class.

During high school both my kids were offered fully paid higher education on the condition that a course of study was viable. My elder son, not college material, gave a pass on that, and went out into the world to figure life out. He is now a Master Auto Mechanic, doing what he loves and well paid for it. Our youngest wanted to enter a residential 4 year college, and she had academic performance that justified it. In her junior year of High School year we gave her the challenge to prepare a proposal on what field of study she wanted to focus on and why. It included what occupation doors a particular degree would open for her and an understanding of it's future outlook. Had she been unclear on a given direction then community college would provide 2 years to knock out those GEs while clarifying her educational goals. Our other criteria was that she complete her degree within 4 years - any additional year(s)/costs needed to complete her BS would be on her. She did so in 4 years and graduated on the Deans List without sacrificing sorority experience and a full college social life - in essence she had an established work ethic to buckle down so she also had free time to enjoy. IMHO I believe that shooting kids off to 4 year college as a natural progression from high school without having a vision of their path and associated expenses (unless money is no object) is short sighted on parent's part. A year or so off between high school and college can also serve as clean airspace to give greater thought to where to go from 'here'. It is often said, "How can they possibly know what they want to do with their lives at 18??" This can be true, and in fact my daughter did change majors during her sophomore year - but the her work ethic was strongly in place, she still graduated in 4 years and with 10 credits more than needed for her diploma. Because she is some kind of genius? Nope. Because she saw the gift of her degree for what is was, the incredible opportunity it gave to work in a career she'd look forward to going to every day, and the means to support herself... and she is rocking life too. What kids are able to achieve in their young adulthood once we've established parameters, expectations and boundaries for college attendance then handed them the reins might surprise you :)

I understand that there anecdotes for everything. However I'm not sure that anecdotes are the best foundation for decision making. I could have used some guidance but most of it was about how to work hard, study hard, apply myself, etc. Of course my situation is also anecdotal.

Great points have been made here but I think the best one is that data is blind and drive is personal.

For what it is worth.

So flip that a bit and we can conclude that data is good and so is drive.

To the student: do both.

:)

Tough question.

I do know this: parents don't necessarily know what's best for their kids. I sure wish I knew how to tell my kids what's right for them, but that's not my place. I liked the suggestion to sit down with them and figure out the costs, what it's going to take to do it, and what to do after graduation. There needs to be a plan.

My father objected to my course of study (in the arts). It didn't fit his idea of a dependable job.

But I stuck with my passion. At first, I didn't get job in my field. I got a 9-5 job at an excellent company because of some experience I acquired on a campus job. I HATED that job, despite the excellent pay and benefits, and in spite of working with people I really liked. It was a soul sucking job.

After a few years, I went back to what I love, and I'm still doing it decades later. I'm self-employed. I probably won't ever get rich doing it, but I work enough to earn decent money. I make probably 5x per hour more than I ever would have made doing what my dad recommended, and his recommended job is in much less demand now.

If I had based my education on what was 'practical', I wouldn't be doing what I love. If someone knows what they love, and they are good at it, then they should go for it. And it helps to have backup skills in case it doesn't work out right away . . . especially in the liberal arts.

It's better to take a chance and try for what you want, instead of playing it safe and being miserable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2017 02:54AM by imaworkinonit.

And I just want to add, that the world is changing, just as it was when I was deciding what I wanted to do.

It used to be that a college education was the ticket to a good job and a secure future. Now I'm not sure there IS a ticket to a secure future. College doesn't necessarily prepare students for a career on our modern workplace. And even when it does, those careers often evolve, or even disappear. There are so many highly educated college graduates working in low-paying jobs they could have gotten straight out of high school.

A degree looks good on a resume, and sometimes you need it just to get in the door for an interview. But it's a real question now whether it's worth the cost, and whether it will result in a job, let alone a career.

Some people would rather choose a simple life and a job that will provide for their basic needs without excessive stress and long hours. What's your definition of success? Is it all about the job, or is it more about living. And can you find or create a job that you like so much that it doesn't even seem like work?

I have an undergrad degree in English. I make as much as most medical doctors.

I think telling people what to study is none of your business. Harvard and Yale recruit English majors for their MD programs because the schools think they make better doctors in the long run.

English has been a very common degree for people to get before going into law school. After all, you have to read well, write well, and think well--all of which the program prepares young students for.

Exactly...You can easily practice law or medicine with a B.A. in English. My husband had a B.A. in theatre and is a lawyer and professor. And are we still pretending no one is a social worker, therapist, owner of a tutoring business, curator, librarian, content writer or manager, editor, publisher, graphic designer, teacher, professor, creative director, copywriter, HR or marketing professional...? I'm pretty sure all of those are careers and all of those people had to read Shakespeare to get there. This insistence that reading literature is a hobby and those students don't get jobs is just silly. Medicine is definitely not the only career.