I need some advice, but before that I need to briefly tell my story.

I grew up in utah county, and almost everyone I knew in my high school was Mormon. I went to BYU after that, and I've only had a few non-Mormon friends in my entire life. I served a mission, was faithful in the church, and believed in it, even though I was often skeptical about personal experiences that I heard once in a while. By nature I'm kind of skeptical.

When I was close to graduating from BYU, I read a magazine article about atheism, and found it very intriguing, but I didn't dare investigate further because I was attending BYU. After I graduated, I bought a copy of The God Delusion about a week later, and found that my faith was completely devastated. I had lost all faith in God. I proceeded to read more about church history to understand its origins better, but I didn't believe anymore.

However, because I had no LDS friends, had recently moved to Salt Lake, and literally didn't know how to make friends outside the church, I was still too afraid to leave. I think I also bought into the "kids from non-Mormon families do drugs and have horrible lives" myth. For the next four years I struggled to be active even though I didn't believe. At some point I tried to regain my faith but it was never really quite back. I was also getting nervous because I was getting older and felt like I needed to get married, but most LDS girls didn't want to date someone who secretly had serious doubts about the church. I started to date a girl I really liked, but knew it was going to be an issue.

I told her at one point that I didn't believe in the church, and she closed up and didn't say anything. I thought the relationship was going to end, so the next day I left her a note saying that I really did believe, and would stay in the church. Later after that I told her I wasn't sure I'd stay in the church, but would always follow its standards. Long story short, we got married in the temple. That was 4 years after I had lost my faith. I didn't feel good about getting married in the temple, but forced myself to do it anyway, which I regret.

After getting married, I realized that I could potentially be putting my kids through the horrible experience I had (having to act like you believe when you don't) because I wasn't strong enough to stand up for what I really believed. I also thought about the guilt inflicted on me as a youth because of masturbation, which I no longer think is wrong. I finally found the courage to stand up for my convictions and told my wife.

It's been rocky, but she wants to stay with me. But after officially declaring I don't believe, my other opinions started to change as well. I started to think maybe Mormonism wasn't a good or necessary influence at all. I started to become very worried about my children being exposed to Mormonism, and adopting attitudes towards sex and truth from it. My wife and I agreed that the kids could choose for themselves starting at age 12, but I still worry a lot about it. I really wish my kids would not be taught to believe at all. So here's my questions for the community:

How do kids raised by one Mormon and one atheist usually turn out? Will they adopt the sex-is-bad TBM attitudes? Is it better to consider a divorce before we even have kids? Or am I making too big a deal of it? Maybe I should just be fine with letting the kids choose for themselves and not worry about it. Let me know what you'd recommend. Thank you.

Let me check my crystal ball...



:: shakes crystal ball ::




Sorry, man, it's not working. I don't think there is any way to predict how your children will turn out. A lot is up to you and what and how you teach them. A lot is up to them and what and how they learn. A lot is up to a gajillion other external factors, such as: media, classmates/friends, teachers, extended family.

Your children are not growing up in a vacuum. They are constantly bombarded with messages and stimuli and information. You are in the process of teaching them how to sort all that out for themselves. My advice is: teach them critical thinking skills, how to establish and maintain appropriate boundaries -- including when and how to say no appropriately, and above all else, teach them about personal integrity. If they grow up understanding why it's important to be true to oneself, then they will protect their personal integrity fiercely. This is how one teaches morality to children without religion. Learn to base moral choices on personal integrity rather than on what someone else tells you your morals should be.

That's similar to what my wife said, but without shaking a crystal ball :)

I guess coming from an uber-Mormon background gave me the idea that everyone does what their environment exposes them to. Hopefully I'll raise them in more mainstream society and expose them to more diverse influences, and let them think what they want. Thank you for your advice.

My first suggestion is to be sure that you and your wife can have a healthy relationship. If you and your wife are still sorting out how to live as believer/non-believer, it is not the time to think about having children.

All relationships are different, all children are different so predicting how your yet unborn children will manage the difference between their parents is tough to guess. The healthier your relationship, the better for the kids.

Hope all works out for you and your wife.

That seems like really good advice. By putting this behind me, and letting my wife know that she's really my first priority, I think that alone will seriously strengthen our relationship. Then I'll really be able to know if having kids is the right thing to do.

Thank you for posting.

No kids just yet!

besides the same ones that are faced even by Mormons. I just don't see where the church provides all that much help. My kids are happy and successful and they avoided serious issues.

If you allow your kids to be raised Mormon, they won't respect you as an apostate. We've had heartbreaking stories of kids telling parents how evil they are for not believing. Your kids will start listening to bishops for advice instead of you.

At the very least, insist that you get to show them other churches and tell them exactly what you think and why. If you teach them critical thinking skills, they are far less likely to drink the kool aid.

That would be tragic, and it's a little bit of what I'm afraid of.

I've definitely insisted I can influence them, less at first, but all out at ages 12+ and they're even allowed to not go to church if they don't want to at that age. So hopefully that's enough.

Particularly in a known unstable environment?

There is one way to predict with absolute certainty how your kids will turn out; Don't have any kids!

If you're having kids because your wife's religious views demand it, then you're having kids for all the wrong reasons (as if there is a right reason). Kids aren't toys or possessions. They're living, breathing beings.

It just boggles my mind that unstable couples think a baby will somehow improve their not-so-desirable condition.

Timothy

We're not considering having kids right now, but it's clear that she wants to have them eventually. If the marriage starts doing better, we'll definitely have them. If I said no kids ever, it would end the marriage.

I agree with you though. I'd like to put it off until I feel totally confident it'll work out long term.

I grew up in a household with different religious beliefs. It ended up not creating a good environment, even though they remained married until their deaths. In hindsight, I believe this modeling of behavior propelled me into the church in my early adulthood because the church masquerades (hides) behind a seemingly good facade. For someone who needs acceptance, it is quite the trap. It took 20 years to pry myself from this trap because I did not think a church would grossly misrepresent what its beliefs and origins. I was a convert but I would venture to say it might take an individual who grew up in the church being constantly reinforced to have enough faith, obey the leaders and parents to see the deception. I would certainly wait an extended period of time before you bring children into the mix to see how your wife handles you not being a believer in the LDS faith and see how she handles the pressure from the Morg. I thought it was interesting the other day when I learned that a lawyer that a family member employed is Jewish and his wife is a Methodist. They both participate in each other's beliefs. From my experience disaffecting, it is almost impossible for Mormons to accept differences in a family--they have little or no respect for boundaries, they shame, they shun, and have a major superiority complex.

Wishing you and your wife the best...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 04:33PM by tiptoes.

The one with a superiority complex is probably me. It's hard for me to treat our different beliefs with equal respect, though I try.

Superiority complex more on a judgmental level if that makes sense? It is really hard for me too because I know when he goes to church being an obedient member of the TSCC is reinforced over and over and I would never want him to choose a dishonest corporation over me. He has 100's to support him and I am all alone in this. It is a tough road and a process--keep your chin up.

That I relate to -- I know none of you in person, but you're the closest I have to people who know what I'm going through. Thank you, tiptoes.

a mere bump in the road of life. Split your stuff and move on.

Divorce with kids, now that's a lifetime of complications.

I wouldn't put much stock into a verbal agreement that the kids can choose there own religion 12 years into the future. Once kids are in the picture, you are no longer the most important person in her life.

That said, I haven't a clue what you should do.

I agree about divorce without kids not being as big of a deal. But she definitely doesn't agree: she thinks I'm "destroying her life." :(

and then suddenly be amenable to logic.

You can't agree to give up anything in advance. It all has to be negotiable as you go. People change and learn, and they shouldn't be held to rules they liked in the past.

Are you feeling guilty because you led her on about your belief? It isn't your fault. People are allowed to change.

One big issue in religious marital strife happens because one person discovers the truth and the other expects them to ignore that new reality and stay Mormon anyway. It doesn't work like that in real life marriage. People change and spouses have to adjust.

What's with the 12 years old thing? That is probably the worst time ever to expect a kid to change their paradigm, their friends, their social structure, and buck 12 years of brainwashing.

If you don't have children yet, KEEP IT THAT WAY until either your wife has given up and studied on her own and figured out the truth or you decide to go separate ways so she can find a true Peter Priesthood and raise the children her way. I'd bet 99 to 1 that you will regret it if you don't.

You do not mention that you love your wife.

You do not say that she is unique to you in any way.

You mention that she is willing to stay with you even though it's been rocky.

You do not say that you are willing to stay with her based on a bond that's grown over time.

These are important clues about how you feel, which you obviously do not know how to find out. You have lied, flipped, lied, told truth, and migrated all over the place because you are a cult victim and not used to making decisions based on how YOU FEEL but rather how things will turn out.

This is a manipulative point of view and, sadly, you do not appear to have the interests of your spouse in mind in any of your thinking. This is what love sounds like:

My wife has stuck with me through all the flipflopping and I am concerned about hurting her.

Forget about how the kids will turn out. For you to raise children together, you would have to summon a love for the union that you just don't have. No criticism, just observing.

For a preview of the rigors of that life, read my earlier post in another thread here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,192534,192562#msg-192562

Now, having said this, let me give you a suggestion. Do not leave your wife. Do not have kids. Do not make any important decisions until you have stabilized yourself.

Recovery from Mormonism is a rediscovery of who you really are. Kudos to you for finally realizing you can't live a hypocritical lie and be a well-adjusted, fulfilled human being. When you are healed enough to stop judging others and start spontaneously feeling joy in life, you are getting close. When you start thinking of your wife in terms of her needs, then you love for real.

Wait for it. If it doesn't come after you feel personally well-grounded and happier and more fulfilled than ever before, then you can consider divorce.

Anagrammy

I would also like to add that the two of you start traveling as far and as exotic as you can afford. See something of the world. It is very broadening and may help both of you to gain some perspective after a lifetime in the morg environment.

Wow, that was piercing. I feel like I just got caught. You've stated what I didn't dare put in my post. Thank you for being able to see what's going on so clearly.

Truth is, I'm also in the middle of a PhD program and thinking about quitting. I feel like I've lost all ability to make decisions. I'll treat your advice with great respect and thoughtfulness.

That the Bishops and Stake President's kids could get booze and dope. Oh and their daughters like to give blow jobs.

That is how it was when I was growing up on So Cal.

I had a lot of non mormon friends and drinking and drugs were not a problem. For those who liked to get wasted I just did not hang out with them when they did.

Age one thru 12 is when kids are the most impressionable. They'll learn everything from TSCC, no matter what you do. You can figure it out from there. Don't think for one minute they won't be Mormons, and you've probably read the stories about what TSCC does to apostates in a family. You'll be that apostate someday.

I was raised by a moron and an atheist. Unfortunately, the atheist rent agreed to let the moron do the parenting and the religious indoctrination with no interference. The atheist's role was to bring home the bacon. Period. The atheist was not allowed to speak a word of criticism about TSCC.

I grew up sexually repressed with the best of 'em. I believed all that "worst sin next to murder" crap completely. Along with all the other crap.

So IMHO the only way it could possibly work is to have an agreement with your spouse right now that any kids you have would have equal exposure to your beliefs and hers in order to make their own decision. And even with equal input, you could still end up with one or more kids who think you are a heathen destined for hell, and will refuse to let you see your grandkids.

Every child is different. After the age of 3, I had no religious upbringing, but once I hit 12, I felt the need for religion in my life and began searching.

My brother and sister are not religious, although my sister attended the Mormon Church with me a few times when she was a teen, but stopped when the sister missionaries got pushy. My brother attended another church with a friend a few times, but decided that religion wasn't for him.

Same parents, three different kids with their own views.

Do not have kids until you decide how they will be raised....every Sun. with a "religion" of mom's choice or just half time and then the other Suns. you get to choose what they do? Either way it could cause problems down the road as the kids will be told you are in danger and a fallen man. Do you want that? Do you want your kids being told that you are not worthy? Do you want your kids brainwashed as you were? Do you want them thinking that a Temple marriage is all that when it is not a great thing at all. Very disappointing. Your mistake was not getting this aired out before you married. If you think there will be problems why bring kids into the confusion. I doubt if I would....or you could just agree that it was all a mistake and part amicably.

Also who told you that nonmormons were always drinking and doing bad things. The church, your parents, who???This makes me so mad as it is so untrue. And age twelve is after baptism. So are you going to allow the children to be baptised when you said you want them to choose their own path at 12. Seems like it would have been chosen for them if Mom wants them baptised and you give in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 09:39PM by honestone.

I agree that was my mistake. The myth is just something you pick up -- stories about so and so who aren't active and have children who have problems. Maybe it's just a utah county thing.

The idea of twelve is that it is when you get pressure to do things with worthiness standards attached to them. That's when Deacons pass the sacrament every week, and if they masturbate, then that inflicts guilt. I really didn't like that, so I figured I could try and convince them to opt out by that age. Maybe it's not the best of compromises, but it seemed reasonable.

Why age 12? Don't Mormons call 8 the age of accountability?

If you do have kids, you should definitely work out more of a 50/50 thing where you each have weeks to take them to a church of your choosing. If they've only ever known 1 church, all their friends will be there, and there won't really be a choice for them.

For me I was brainwashed at 5 or 6. I thought I was better than every one as a mormon child. I remember frowning at the kids that had an iced tea stand down the road from me. I remember telling them that was a bad drink to be selling.

I am not going to take my kids to primary and let people teach them about how they are the chosen spirits and for them to actually be told that the Book of Mormon is true. No way!!

When you grow up in Utah (or Idaho like me) it's the cool thing to be Mormon and you can get so caught up in the reality of it all and actually believe it (there weren't gray areas for me..it was all true) That is if you are impressionable like me.

My advice is to teach and explain the benefits of living a moral life you enjoyed from the Mormon church and not let the church raise them. Teach them from your own life and experiences. Let them study other religions if they want when they are old enough to understand. Take the time to let them explore the world and expose them to all good books and view points.

I am 25 and left about 2 years ago. I am also a graduate of BYU. I also found it hard to date Mormons or never Mormons. I am dating an amazing guy that was raised Catholic, but is not active. We have similar view points on the world and don't see a need for a religion.

By the way I love Ice tea and drink it all the time. Best of luck, that is a hard situation. I almost married a Mormon guy and would be in the same predicament as you. It isn't uncommon and you aren't alone.

you just kind of have to find out who they are and let them be that.

This is less about religion than marriage.

You eventually learn what marriage is really about. Your wife didn't really marry you for you. She married you because you are a priesthood holder and could make her look good with a temple marriage. She is more concerned about what her family and church members think about her than what you do.

She married you because she has dreams of you making good money.

She wants kids, and you are the ticket.

It never was about you.

You probably don't share common interests now that you aren't into the church.

Better to figure out what your true interests are and find someone to share them with.

That's what real love is.