Continued from now closed thread:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1954054
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Kate, I was not trying to be callous or dismissive about your physical condition. I was trying to give you a wake-up call. You are looking two gift horses in the mouth, and I considered that your depression and anxiety might be but one cause.

It cannot possibly be either healthy or healing for you to see your skin-and-bones bf so unwell. It cannot possibly help your health to be so stressed about where your next meal is coming from.

Here's the thing: I lost my love, gone forever, to bi-polar disorder, and I would do ANYTHING to have that day back, do things differently, make different choices. Not just that day, but even months earlier. I had gone to classes, his support groups, my support groups, we each had therapists, and I would join his sessions as requested or needed. I watched (babysat, measured) his fluid intake (the drugs can damage kidneys and liver), goaded him into eating right, let him live his life and choices. Manic episodes became terrifying for both of us, but I'm sure more so for him. There is just no way to describe the heart-wrenching blackness which cemented him in place for seeming endless days and months, or "recovery" from that, which risked an insanity-like mania, where he took chances so large as to risk his very life.

We argued one night. I went to work the next morning, my VM was blinking, and it was filled, mostly with sweet messages from him that I had been saving, just because I couldn't stand to push "delete." This is before cells were so common, and we struggled, mostly only on my income, so my work phone was it. I was still irritated with him, not in the mood for sweet nothings, and I started deleting the messages to get to the new ones. The new one was him, and he said, "I miss you and love you. The pills are looking good. Give me a call when you have time, see you later." He had mentioned suicide so many times, and being in a gruff mood, I pushed delete, and decided I'd call him at lunch.

When I called at around 10:30 (guilt got me), there was no answer. I tried a few minutes later; he had always let me know when he would be out, because he was just kind in that way. I left work, made the 20 minute drive home, his car was parked out front. I went in, found him unconscious in the spare bedroom, he was breathing, but I couldn't rouse him.

I called 911, and the paramedics tried to establish an airway, but actually blocked his airway instead. The time it took them to get him to the hospital and breathing again did catastrophic brain damage. In the beginning, the docs were iffy on whether he might wake, what his condition might be, and I believed any drop of hope I was given or imagined. I only left his side to feed our dogs, because we had no one.

Almost no one, anyway.

His parents, to whom he hadn't spoken in seven years, seriously rich and travelling Spain at the time, were tracked down as his "next of kin." They flew in, and among other things, his dad was an attorney both in the US and Canada, and was quickly able to establish his and his wife's legal standing. I had none, because we were not married, because we didn't want a "quickie," either. I was lucky that they tolerated me at all, but as it turns out, my being there at least meant that they didn't have to hang around the hospital all hours of the day.

The time came when the docs and his parents decided that there was no hope, and he was transferred fom ICU to the hospice unit. I had no say whatsoever, wasn't even included in the consultation.

The morning of day nine after the od, him lying there, his urine bag beginning to turn bloody, his parents announced to me that they had cancelled their flight the day before back to Spain, because the docs had told them he would die within 24 hours, so they would be willing to give it another day. They left immediately after he died, and I have never seen them again.

He had hated his parents, and I had learned why. I understand pain, loss, the gravity of mental illness, and evil in laws.

I'm here to tell you, eating a little shit from his bitch mother is totally worth the both of you having a break from the stress, trying to become a little healthier, stronger, and building a sustainable future, together.

I hope you didn't think that the two gift horses to which I referred was the monthly stipend or a place to stay.

No.

I was referring to his and your lives.

They are precious, and more fragile than you are considering. You need that piece of paper N.O.W. Your alternative is to file living wills or advance directives with the courts, and speaking plainly, it's cheaper to get married. Don't get married for her, do it for yourselves.

Am I the pot, or am I the kettle?

Not everything, from anyone, is so plain as it seems.

A wife is next of kin and a girl friend has no standing.

I think it's all been said, but to respond to the OP in he original thread, as tragic as the situation is the mother has no obligation to help. Sure, it'd be nice, but the OP and her boyfriend are adults. They need to figure out their own way. Does it suck that the mother helped some kids but not others based on marriage status? Sure, but that's the way life goes sometimes. We have no one to count on but ourselves.

Everyone is allowed their boundaries. Enforcing ones boundaries is vital to self esteem, etc. The mom believes in marriage before cohabitation.

Sorry but that's how it goes. Of course she doesn't have much money to take care of you - she pays 10% to the church.

But you and your bf can get jobs.

Take your vitamin D and start eating better and exercising. Get rid of cell phone data plans and netflix that only waste time. I know someone with SAD and in the winter they are unbearable and basically refuse to take care of themselves. I guess that's the depression. Doesn't make sense to me because I am always trying to go outside and play in the snow because it's fun and good exercise.

The physically ill boyfriend already has a job. The girlfriend feels that she is incapable right now. I don't want to judge that, but it wouldn't hurt to make an appointment with Vocational Rehabilitation. They can help to access resources that will help people to prepare to work again, as well as help to find a job when they are able.

Maybe I'll do that vocational rehabilitation that's not a bad idea.

They helped my husband a lot.

I just made an appointment for next week hope it goes well

That's a great choice. I hope things get better for you.

Forget the dream wedding. Why would OP even want to legally marry into this at all? Mommy isn't going to go away and she's only going to dole out what suits her anyway. Spare me the toxic mommy/son relationships. They are a plague in any culture and even if he hates her if he hasn't learned how to relate to her as an adult he probably is never going to.
My own family, who loves me and whom I love very much, didn't even bother to pick up the phone and call me when my husband finally died and when I was beyond desperate trying to keep a home together for our daughters my Dad was purchasing $30,000 in silver because someone on rush limbaugh told him to.
My parents are that Greatest Generation. Their philosophy was get out immediately and don't dare bring our problems home because they were ready to travel and finally enjoy their retirement.
Who did offer to help? The predatory jackmormon with mommy issues who eventually almost killed me after doing his best to destroy my relationship with my daughters.
Sure. Even $5,000 of that 30 blown on silver (which ended up causing a financial nightmare when my Dad went into long term care) would have made all the difference in the world if they had offered but it would have never even once occurred to me to ask them for help. I am grateful now that they didn't offer. I am still desperate and barely surviving but it has made me even tougher and that cushion might have made me wallow down into a spiral. Some people might say that I also live with crippling anxiety and depression issues but I really don't have the energy or time to worry about it. I have to go to my very low paying job (where I really enjoy my coworkers much more than I would if I was in a higher paying position) because I have bills to pay.
Frankly, OP and boyfriend sound like a couple of 22 year olds who have based their entire reality on too much television.
Rant over.

The first few years of our marriage, my wife habitually worried so incessantly about so many things, that I bought her a blank Journal with an imprinted title: WORRY BOOK

Within a few weeks, she saw from noting every worry that NONE of them happened as imagined.

This book also helped A LOT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAH-vIOEzgw

It may be helpful to think of it from the MIL's perspective. She sees OP as disrespecting her name and family. Taking what she wants without honor to customs or conservative values. MIL is a compassionate women to give $200 away each month. That's a lot of money but for OP it's just not enough...

My parents sacrificed to help my older TBM siblings with college and weddings and didn't do that for me.

I have grown children now and would find it very uncomfortable to have them and their spouses move into my home. I need privacy. I'd have an extreme problem with such guests if I knew they didn't approve of how I run my home, how I spend my money or use my time. I don't need someone watching an judging what I do in my own home and private time.

I didn't demand that my parents give me more than they chose to give and I wouldn't like it if my own adult children objected to my level of support.

Someone might think I am "wealthy," but I don't have unlimited resources and need to be sure I can take care of my needs and comfort for as long as I might live. I want enough of a cushion to eliminate worry and to be prepared for unexpected needs or problems. Once the money is gone, I can't go back to work in old age and earn it again. Just because I have some money doesn't mean someone else has a right to expect me to give it away.

Let him move home to save his life. Get benefits. Find a roommate. This too shall pass. And keep trying meds until you find one that works.

The OP seems to want to vent, which is fine. We all need to vent, and many here can relate to being treated like poop by a Mormon or two. BUT, I sincerely hope you will lick your wounds, grieve, and then listen to some of the good advice you've been offered. Based on what I'm reading, you're giving a bunch of excuses about why you can't help yourself. Why you can't possible get medical help for your depression or get a job. The bottom line is that you have volition, and you either want to help yourself (and your boyfriend) or you don't. It's easy to become self absorbed and wrapped up in your own problems. As Teddy Roosevelt once said "if we could kick the person in the pants who was responsible for most of our problems, we would never sit down".

We allow my 28-year-old nephew to live in one half of a duplex my mother owns. By doing so, we forgo $700 a month in rent from that unit. My mother is in assisted living and I personally pay from my salary $2500 per month for that care. I could use that $700 per month toward her care!

In return for free rent, I have set three rules for my nephew:

1. No one stays overnight ever (Why? If someone moves in, that person acquires squatters' rights and it can be an expensive legal process to evict him or her). I have previous experience with this as he let a girlfriend and others live with him when he was living in my mother's basement. In my case, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with practicalities and the law.

2. No one may park on the front lawn. (Yes, I've actually had to make that rule -- believe it or not.)

3. He must clean up after his dog.

I have not made these rules because my love is conditional. I've made them because he is receiving a valuable benefit and I expect good behavior in return. And, there are other tenants and I must make certain he does not annoy them.

My love is unconditional. My willingness to provide him a free place to live is not.

"Learned helplessness."

Someone above mentioned that she should let her boyfriend move home without her. I agree. She should insist on it if he is that ill, but his parents have no responsibility for her.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Learned helplessness."
>
> Someone above mentioned that she should let her
> boyfriend move home without her. I agree. She
> should insist on it if he is that ill, but his
> parents have no responsibility for her.


Wow. So this is your alternate diagnosis for depression and anxiety? I suppose if you have seen someome recover, it is mentally "easy" to apply that assumption to all. Nice.

it is a recognised psychological condition:


"Learned helplessness, in psychology, a mental state in which an organism forced to bear aversive stimuli, or stimuli that are painful or otherwise unpleasant, becomes unable or unwilling to avoid subsequent encounters with those stimuli, even if they are “escapable,” presumably because it has learned that it cannot control the situation."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/learned-helplessness

It is how indians train elephants - they tie up the baby elephant by it's foot with a metal chain attached to a post. The young animal is not strong enough to break free and eventually stops trying, even when it grows to full adult height and strength: it has become a prisoner in it's own mind, a bit like a tbm who feels they should not break free and could not if even if they tried.

People with disabilities or debilatating illnesses often become adept at manipulating the people in their environment into believing, as they do, that they cannot accomplish certain tasks and need these tasks performed for them.

It is not a heartless alternate diagnosis but a serious emotional/developmental problem in the person who has developed 'learned helplessness'. Not only has the person 'learned' they have no power to complete these tasks, but they have also learned they get a more favourable response from others when they appear more helpless than they actually are. It is a serious psychological condition and all about power, or the belief one lacks any - but paradoxically, one is adept at controlling one's immediate environment (and probably very frustrated when not getting one's own way).

kolobkate, I read your other message board about your situation.

First, own responsibility for your position. Correct me if I am wrong, because all I know is what you have disclosed on the previous board, but you worked yourself into it. You are in financial trouble because of your decisions. Regardless of the who is at fault, you must own your problems, take control and do whatever is in your power.

Second, your mother's house, your mother's rules. She has the right to set boundaries which means she does not need to allow her unmarried son to reside under her roof while you and your bf are unmarried - this also occurs in non-Mormon households, so Mormons are no exception to this.

As with your employment situation, have you considered turning outwards to someone to gain a different perspective of your employment situation? See if a friend can dig into their network.

Lastly, turn your situation into a positive learning lesson. Take something good out of it. Right now, you can learn the principles of minimalism, budgeting and finance, discipline, and accountability. You can pull wisdom out of your experience by acknowledging your responsibility and role in it and turn that into a positive self-internal dialogue and use it as motivation and develop a mindset that keeps the end goal in mind.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2017 02:34PM by canary21.

Neither my parents nor my in-laws would ever allow an unmarried child to cohabitate under their roof. My parents are LDS and wife's parents are Catholic. I'm more liberal and might handle it differently when my kids are grown if such a need were to arise, but I'm not certain.

$200 per month is a generous offering of help.

kolobkate- I'm shocked that you expect your BF's parents to house & feed you just because your their sons girlfriend. My son is only 12 and I already know that I don't want to support him as an adult and his future girlfriend. I think that she is being generous sending money. I think it would be a good idea for your boyfriend to move in with his parents by himself. He would be able to work on his health & finances.

Note to the pearl clutchers –

You're writing about OP as if she had just met him in a bar last month. Kate has been living with her SO for three years. They have joint financial accounts. She's stuck by him all this time in his poor health, which is more than Mom has done. They're a committed couple, not some casual hook-up.

They're planning to get married, just not the way his mother demands. He's proposed, she's accepted. She's not his GF so much as his fiancée. Maybe that doesn't make a difference to you, though.

Thank you to this person. I backed out of this conversation yesterday once I noticed people didn't seem to understand the level of my relationship with my love. It was also disheartening to see how many ignorant people there have been who have responded to my mental illness. I've always known there has been quite the stigma & it's something that's hard for people to understand. That's why I haven't taken most people's replies seriously or gotten offended by them. I think people just don't understand. But I am grateful that there has been at least one person, like yourself, who at least acknowledges my relationship with my boyfriend as more than just a casual partnership. No matter who is right or wrong on this issue (which I don't think is a black & white issue & each party is to blame for some things), I'm appreciate that someone read & understood, rather than just assumed. Thank you.

It's easy to jump to conclusions on a board like this, because it's impossible to see enough of the full picture. I sincerely hope you can find the resources you need.

You have to feed yourself & not at the expense of others
Unless they (other private individuals who are consenting to feed you) freely choose it because they value something you do for or with them (or a business they own.)

Did you say your country of residence? In my country there is no cradle to grave house or resting place nor daily food guarantee nor even basic medicines granted available cradle to grave for all. Nor is there free job training to all, I don't know what they call this system. But your social networking you spoke of with meals is what necessities build on. I can recall the first time I heard a teen student express frustration either that their father had air conditioning. His father was in prison. /Our community centers ed center was 110 degrees and couldn't afford repair of the air conditioner some fans blew whispy 100 plus degree air across our sweating faces and backs. ....or the first time I heard a teen express frustration at betrayal.
But we get along everyone does their part, everyone puts in.

I don't think what kind of relationship you self define yourself as having matters at all- what matters is what you do not words you use to describe you your thoughts yourself or your relationship.

You said you loved your male partner. But that you were willing to enable or allow him to starve (as you said you were now starving he'd been offered food and lodging which you refused and refuse for him to go alone.) ... that you "love" him but are uncomfortable with the food and lodging option available so he can just stArve instead. And I think love is a verb it's not an empty word it's how you act not what you just say that you do.
If you loved a starving man and could send him to food you'd let him go gladly to save his life. Or fill out the application or paperwork or job duty roster to get some of that food yourself.
Love doesn't starve someone else saying you love them and standing in the way of their lodging care nurture which is basic- food.

I am unsympathetic of you saying you'd rather be on the street or homeless but expecting him to protect you on the street. I am not impressed. I recall teaching run away teens at a homeless shelter & knew the intensity trying to make a girls rescue from her pimp a permanent reality rather than a temporary safety. I don't want any such danger in life to come needlessly to you. As you avoid a safe albeit bland, shelter in an mormon family, and become in danger from vicious predators. Once I thought you had to have a certain elegance look but sadly learned pimps find johns for souls of any sex or shape. I also recall when I was in the 9th grade, two girls in freshman PE on my locker row, learn self defense with me each was the daughter of a prostitute. One was there with her big sister, (one row over so that made 3 of my five girlfriends in freshman PE at ---HS daughters of prostitutes. they would take care of me in rougher elements in our high school with only 647 graduates out of 999 entering freshmen. None of the girls in freshman PE made it to graduation with me except (-----) That's part of why I was so inclined to teach for the teen homeless shelter for a few years and in a 16-23 year old GED for old gangsters for 2 years, and continuation for 13 years, and intervention reading /at risk at regular public high school until I left behind my computer projector remote onto the desk beneath the bookcase of class sets of teen novels & tablet cart. I knew who hadn't been offered opportunities and they were my friends (in x Ca city in the 1970s) many whom ended up with their mothers on the street. Avoiding the street is love of self not just love of lover.


Love has long distances between work at home frequently, frequently works longest commutes including navy, trucking, traveling nursing see families make generous sacrificing offerings of the heart

While they are apart that they might live. That they might eat, all that they might live to play another day.

This is important info because many many property owners near me marry with prenup and typically break up before 7 years even with a girlfriend to protect their property/keep their land intact. So it's really important for us male or female, to do our part with job training apprenticing 401king or vesting into future financially. Even a long partnership only has minimal financial support post relationship or none with shared assets and custody in today's legal culture. Everyone does their part ...puts some in.

Do you have a trust or trust fund you mispent? Me either!!!! Damn

Anyways my 20 cents



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2017 10:13AM by paintinginthewin.

Then it's possible that she is jealous of you. Mother-in-laws often get resentful of the position of their son's beloved.

Ever hear the expression, "Any port in a storm"? When you are running out of options, sometimes you have to choose the best of a bunch of undesirable choices. That's what many board members are pointing out. But perhaps the OP is not at that point yet, and may never be at that point.

My mom would never have allowed an unmarried couple to sleep together under her roof either. It's not that unusual. And as another board member stated, there are legal reasons why the mom might not want someone who isn't a family member living in her house. So a number of us are not finding the mom's position in this case to be unreasonable.

Call me a pearl-clutcher if you so desire, but parents of adult offspring have rights in terms of where and to whom their money goes. If they are unwilling for whatever reason to have their adult children's significant others. married or otherwise, move in with them, it's their prerogative to feel that way.

I may anger OP as well as other posters in saying this, but SAD is somewhat an affliction of an entitled society. While the condition and its symptoms are real, malaise particular to lack of sunlight must have existed in earlier generations. Nonetheless, a person didn't have the luxury of using those manifestations much before 1960 for claiming that he or she could not work. I'm not sure that was such a bad thing.

Based on OP's most recent post, she is only going to listen to people who are "sympathetic" to her cause (I'm tempted to use the term "enabling"). Well, best of luck. This may be the first time I've read a post here and thought "the Mormon is the one behaving like a rational adult". Thanks OP for making me side with a Mormon! Sigh.