(The first thread filled up rapidly and raucously so, per board policy and practice, it's continued here).
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1955559,1955559#msg-1955559-----
That testifying moment from Sandra came when she got cross with me as we crossed swords over Christianity and its purported miracles. (Note: This topic is clearly related to Mormonism because Mormonism claims to be the true form of Christianity, whether it is or not. Both testify to holding the heavenly keys, powers and mandates in the name of Jesus. In my interaction with Sandra Tanner, it was abundantly clear that she had strong opinions about both--in particular, and rather curiously, about distant-Mormon-cousin Christianity to which she basically gave a faithful snd uncritical free pass, while kicking Mormonism to the curb).
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First, let me say that I owe much to Sandra and Jerald Tanner for helping grease the skids in the direction of my eventual escape from the Mormon Cult.
Their invaluable assistance in that effort through rigorous, responsible and readily-available research was critical to my freedom break.
Two of their works, in particular, were instrumental in helping me to crystallize in my own mind the utter falsity of the LDS faith.
The first was their review of changes in the LDS Temple Endowment over time, leading me to the unavoidable conclusion that it was nothing but a clunky, unimaginative and blatantly dependent rip-off from Masonic lodge rites.
That Tanner-fueled conclusion ultimately led me to suspend my payment of tithing.
The second significant impact that the Tanners' work had on my decision to leave Mormonism was their book, "The Changing World of Mormonism," a devastating compilation of historical evidences against Mormonism's defenses of its history, doctrines, policies and practices.
Over the years, I have made many Mecca-like treks to the Tanners' bookstore in Salt Lake City, across from the Franklin Covey ballfield on 13th South. There I have spent numerous hours, separated myself from hundreds of my own dollars purchasing vital reading material and spoken, both in person and later over the phone, with, in particular, Sandra.
In so many ways, she and Jerald have my deep respect and appreciation for all the years they have devoted to shedding uncompromising light on the Mormon facade.
With that said as genuinely as possible, I nonetheless have a real bone to pick with Sandra Tanner.
In a nutshell, she is not, in my opinion, equally as critically-minded or honest in her research of Christianity as she is of Mormonism.
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--Preparing to Duel with Sandra Tanner Over Her Research Methodology and Mindset: A Close Encounter of the Christian Apologist Kind
Several years ago, I made one of my stops at the Tanner bookstore. With me at the time was my friend Maxinne Hanks--excommunicated Mormon, outspoken feminist, professional editor, and noted author of the book, "Women and Authority."
After browsing through the Tanners' bookstore and making some selections, I noticed that Sandra had taken up her usual spot behind a desk next to the front door, where she would both ring out customers and engage in informal and informative discussions with her inquiring patrons.
I could not help but notice that many of the books in the Tanner establishment promote and defend both the faith and historicity of fundamentalist Christianity.
The Tanners are, indeed, avowed Christians who operate their own outreach ministry and who are uncompromising apologists for their own Christian belief system.
I did not want to unnecessarily offend Sandra but had some basic questions I wished to ask her regarding her research and defense of Christianity.
I knew, however, that it would be wise to approach these subjects somewhat delicately.
So, as I approached her as she sat at her desk, I did so with cautious deliberation, asking the Lord's blessings to be with me (OK, maybe not that last part but I was a bit apprehensive).
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--Confrontation With Sandra Tanner Over Her Double Standard
As I had done many times in the past, I sincerely relayed to Sandra how much I appreciated her rigorous research on, and deconstruction of, Mormon doctrine and history.
In particular, I mentioned her unparalleled contributions to exposing the Book of Mormon as a demonstrable fraud and 19-century artifact.
I told her how much I respected her work in conclusively demonstrating that the Book of Mormon was pure fiction, both in its character development and its tale spinning--and that these conclusions could be amply, empirically demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt to honest minds.
Sandra graciously took my compliments as I intended them. She knows she's a stellar researcher in the field of Mormon studies and that realization shows both in her carriage and her confidence.
Then I moved into what I discovered, soon enough, was a hostile minefield.
I politely asked Sandra why she did not apply the same rigorous research approach, combined with a healthy dose of skepticism, to questions regarding the historicity and credibility of the Bible--at least as uncompromisingly as she did to the Book of Mormon.
As is Sandra's tendency when she senses she's facing a potential fight on her hands, she bristled and became defensive.
She told me that unlike the Book of Mormon, the Bible was a legitimate, historical record of actual, identifiable peoples who lived in documentable places and times--and, further, that these facts were absolutely confirmed through archaelogical research which employed the Bible as a reliable reference and field guide.
For instance, there were, she pointed out, real Israelites who lived in a real city of Jerusalem. The Bible, she reminded me, served as a valuable scientific roadmap for finding and identifying these populations and locales.
No dispute there.
However, I mentioned to Sandra that the Bible's "miracle stories"--such as Noah's Flood, Jonah being swallowed by a whale, Balaam's ass speaking in human tongue, Jesus walking on water and resurrecting himself and others from the dead--could not be empirically proven through any kind of scientific appeal to the Bible.
That book of Christian scripture, I told her, offers no compelling, testable evidence on which to conclude that these "miracle stories" were actual, literal events.
At this point, Sandra was becoming increasingly upset. She scowled and the corners of her mouth tightened. I figured she would hit back in short order, at least figuratively. And, indeed, she did.
But not before I proceeded apace, determined to get an answer, if I could, from her about what I saw as the clear double standard in her research approaches to Mormonism vs. Christianity.
I asked Sandra why she was so obviously willing to accept Biblical miracles as factual events but was not willing to similarly accept the miraculous tales found in the Book of Mormon.
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==Testimony-Bearing Time
Sandra looked back at me, her eyes flashing angrily. She said, and I quote:
"I've had miracles in my life. I feel sorry for you."
End of discussion.
I thought I had just finished listening to a holier-than-thou Mormon bearing witness to the truthfulness of the Latter-day Saint Gospel during a fast and testimony meeting.
I went ahead and purchased my items and bid Sandra a civil good day.
She graciously bid me the same.
But we had definitely crossed swords--and maybe even drew a little blood.
Sandra Tanner, the invincible and impeccable crusader against all things illogical and baseless in Mormonism, had shown me a stubborn determination (born of an absolute faith-based conviction that she is unquestionably right) for believing in Christianity.
The same kind of faith-based conviction that she criticizes Latter-day Saints for invoking in behalf of their unwavering belief in Mormonism.
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--Conclusion: Sandra Tanner and the Mormons
In so many ways, Sandra Tanner and the Mormons are fundamentally different and at insurmountable odds with one another.
But in one important respect, Sandra Tanner and the Mormons are solidly joined at the hip.
They both faithfully accept their respective religions on the basis of "miracles" which defy--indeed, do not (at least in their minds) require--rational explanation or empirical proof.
The kind of rational explanation or empirical proof that Sandra Tanner claims are reasons enough to reject Mormonism--but not enough to reject Christianity.
"I've had miracles in my life. I feel sorry for you."
OK, Sandra, whatever you say.
Mormons say the exact same thing about us, too, ya know.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2017 12:00AM by steve benson.