Older, whiter, southern and rural America wants to live in a Christian republic

Younger, multi ethnic, urban, outdoor activities, environmentally conscious America wants to live in a secular society

There doesn't seem to be a solution

Yea there is ignore each other if you ever cross each other on the street like we've always done, its not like we've ever been united truly we've always been divided in some way. The civil war is only one example the 1960s is another. My grandparents' entire generation hated the blacks and the gays all the way till their death well maybe not all but a lot. The only thing left for us to hate is dead people. So I guess you could say we have been torn for a long time now.

Once the American Civil War was over, there was a period when this "same" debate was about whether the United States would retain its Protestant identity...or would become Catholic.

For several decades, especially with new immigrants to the United States coming in from Catholic-predominant nations like Italy and Ireland, this was a much fiercer debate than is the current religious/secular debate. (The "old guard" Protestants were convinced that Catholic Americans, and Catholic immigrants, would out-populate the Protestants, and would---in the foreseeable future---take over the country on behalf of the Papacy in Rome.)

After World War II was over, this concern diminished, and (relatively) rapidly because there were far more potentially serious goings-on internationally. Even so, there was still enormous social pressure in many American areas to try to prevent Catholic/non-Catholic marriages.

[This was an early, and important, element in the story of the Clutter family murders in Kansas in 1959. The (Protestant) Clutter daughter was in love with a Catholic student in her high school class, and he was in love with her, and though they wanted to get married, she had recently been told by her father that there was absolutely no way she would ever be allowed to marry her boyfriend...and the whole community, whether Protestant or Catholic, "knew" that it was a doomed romance. Because of this, her boyfriend was initially considered a suspect when the family was found murdered in their home. Google: In Cold Blood.]

The secular vs. religious debate today is relatively small compared to the past American Protestant/Catholic debate, and while the battles in specific areas may be momentarily fierce, there also seems to be a great deal of resolution happening as the attitudes of the population at large evolve.

No, I think can safely assume we're not doomed to tear apart because of religion.

There's really no reason to believe anything other than we'll just move forward and continue to disagree about some things. There's virtually no evidence of any budding uprising by gray headed Baptists to incarcerate and force their religion on younger heathens.

No solution is needed. Our diversity and disagreements are a good thing. How can we ever hope to learn anything if we only surround ourselves with people who think exactly the same as we do?

Despite TV putting the world's problems in your face, America is getting nicer. You might have disagreements on Facebook, but they don't lead to black eyes and broken bones like back in the good old days. I don't think American will tear itself apart over the Kardashians, let alone religion.

I could name many threats to the well being of our nation.
Currently religious differences don’t rank very high among them.

Generally the more the citizens share in common the more tranquil their existence. Too much diversity at once is detrimental as new people with diverse customs and language take time to assimilate i.e. the melting pot effect.

It's when they don't assimilate or when they self segregate is when problems are likely to occur. Strong religious and/or cultural identity differences can lead to conflict, especially where incompatibilities in customs and laws exist.

Early Mormonism is an example of this as Mormons tended to exude an arrogance of "We are Gods elect. We live Gods laws which are above your (mans) laws and therefore we have found our higher purpose while you remain lost.”

From my point of view a bigger threat is a cadre of multinational money interests who operate behind the scenes and outside the laws to accomplish a hidden agenda i.e. state capture. Their multigenerational and have been operating to achieve their goals since long before you or I were born.

America isn't doomed because of religion.

Apathy is the thing that will tear it apart before any one religion will, or secular humanism.

A nation divided against itself cannot stand (Sam Houston.) It isn't religion that divides this country as much as partisan politics.

Each election for the past several cycles has been almost evenly divided down the middle between red and blue states. That they're decided so narrowly between sides indicates to me how fractious and divisive our country has become.

Never seen riots before around our national elections until recently. Deep divisions exist, but they aren't rooted in religious differences.

IMO: I think the outcome of the most recent election in the US has, ironically, made such an outcome unlikely. If any other Republic@n had won then the answer would have been yes, seeing how all the other candidates were driven first and foremost by their religious zeal. But everybody was blindsided by the disaster that unfolded. All the Conservative Christians painted themselves into a corner by declaring that the winner would be their champion. Then it turned out that his main motivator is self-aggrandizement, not furthering the Kingdom of God. So the Right has had to eat crow. They are in free fall as the worst of human nature expresses itself in the USA and their champion is totally unconcerned. They are starting to realize that the recent election was not a sure sigh of the End Times, and as a result maybe they need to back off a bit and start working with the rest of us to actually come up with real-life solutions that have nothing to do with one's religious tribe. So I think that the current state of affairs has served to put a damper on their absolute conviction that God has given them special dispensation to take over the world.

Sorry for getting p0litical, but in America for the last 50-60 years religion has made itself p0litical. When was the last time a prominent religious leader in the US has given a sermon about the importance of meditation as a way to find God? When was the last time any of them has tried to be a peace maker between political rivalries? When was the last time any of them has encouraged empathy for the poor, for God's sake? I have never in all my life (60+ years) heard a GC sermon about any obligation Mormons have to eliminate poverty. No, all their blather is about how special Mormons are and how that translates into a call to set up an alternate government that puts them in charge. Ask Steve Benson. His grandfather was one to those who set Mormonism on a course as a sworn enemy to the federal government because We are Better. And now we see how that all worked out.

Thnak you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2017 05:51AM by slskipper.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2017 05:59PM by steve benson.

Pretty ironic that religion that strives to bind people together are tearing society apart.

What I have heard is that america was founded as a deist-republic. It was fashionable during the enlightenment.

How many americans are deist today?

I don't think that a significant percentage of the population even knows what deism is; but if there were, I suspect that a lot of churchgoers, particularly Catholics I know, would nod and say, "Yeah, I could get behind that."

Me; I vacillate between agnostic deism (or deistic agnosticism?) and an outright atheism...depends on my mood and how you define "God". Either way, the question about whether God exists really doesn't matter to me.

No, religion isn't a threat to America, as others have pointed out in history.

Since there isn't any "destiny," of course we're not "doomed" to anything.

And of course there are solutions.

This kind of division is nothing new, by the way. One of the benefits of studying history is that you can recognize recurring patterns in human behavior, and in societal events -- because you've learned how nearly all of them happen over and over again in history.

Think for a moment about a certain period in England, when the country went from officially Catholic (with heavy persecution of anyone daring to believe otherwise), to starting their own state church (with heavy persecution of anyone daring to remain Catholic), and then swung back and forth between Catholicism, Anglicanism, Puritanism, etc. -- all accompanied by religious extremism and official state persecution of anyone who wouldn't toe whatever religion was in favor at the time.

Was that difficult? Of course.
Did it hurt lots of people? Certainly.
Did they get through it? Yep. Not always easily, but they did.

This too shall pass -- as long as we don't sit on our butts and let the extremists (on any "side") get their way. The "south," for instance...the older people will die. Whites don't "rule" it like they did in the past. Younger generations there are more secular, even the ones remaining christian. Time is on the side of greater "getting along," and the current blip of white christian nationalism is more like a dying gasp for power than a long-term trend.

So keep up the pressure, certainly. But also relax -- it'll be OK.

America is doomed to tear apart because all countries are doomed to eventually do so, particularly those that are large, diverse, and fractious. There is no model of a country that has never done eventually split apart at some point, and countless models of countries that have. Something invariably happens, and a country begins to disintegrate. It is far less likely to happen to a country of smaller size and with little diversity. The United States are open to a lot of problems because of both large regional diversities, and smaller differences between states. Not only is the South, for instance, far, far different from the Northeast, but Oregon far different from its neighbor Idaho, California even more so. And the fact that there are 50 states--many larger than European countries--that have mentalities far different than some of the others, should not necessarily be perceived as a strength.

Religion may not be the major catalyst; the major catalyst will be, and always has been, economic. Even the civil war in Rwanda was economics-based, and not tribal, as it appeared superficially. Religious differences can and might play a minor role, but the defining role will be always go to some sort of economic crisis or collapse. The economic crisis could be born of some other event, such as a natural disaster.

Amorality will doom America before religion does.

It seems to have lost its moral compass, from the highest levels of government, to the minions.

When the wealth is now concentrated in the top 1% of the population, while the middle has fallen out from the middle class.

It's no longer a republic by the people, for the people.

Whoever controls the wealth, controls America.

At first I was going to take issue with your immorality thing. I thought you were going where the LDS and other churches go with this thing, i.e., "the Roman Empire fell due to IMMORALITY!!" But in the context of a failing middle class, etc. (although I would not have listed it under the rubric of "immorality") is exactly how a nation could tear apart. Again, however, that is economically motivated.

Amoral differs from immoral in meaning and contextually.

Vocabulary.com distinguishes them as thus: "Both have to do with right and wrong, but amoral means having no sense of either, like a fish, but the evil immoral describes someone who knows the difference, doesn't care, and says "mwah ha ha" while twirling a mustache. If you are amoral, you're not a jerk, you just don't know that what you're doing is wrong."

Yeah, I read it as "immoral." sorry.

It isn't to ignore we have a problem with immorality in this country. Compared to the Victorian era, not sure which is better.

Our leaders are both amoral and immoral IMO. They go together like hand in glove. Some act like they're responsible w/a conscience, but then it makes me wonder if they're just better actors than the others are?

My rabbi commented right before Trump won the election last fall, and right before he left for good to Israel, that "countries elect the leaders they deserve."

If that's telling for America, we're in deep doodah.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2017 05:21PM by Amyjo.

I will take issue with the "amorality" comment.

We don't need a "moral compass," some artificially constructed "thing" (like a church) to TELL us where to point ourselves "morally." We need people who think, and reason, and decide what's "moral."

What was so "moral" about the US 100 years ago -- when the "moral compass" pointed to it being completely "moral" to segregate blacks, to put children to work in factories instead of going to school, to not allowing women to have jobs or get an education? There was nothing "moral" about any of that, yet that's what the country's "moral compass" pointed to, and most just followed along.

To hell with a "moral compass." Give me people who think instead of follow any day.

If there is to be any true danger of tearing us apart, it will more likely be due to isolated issues regarding a specific right, public policy, or moral issue.

On some college campuses and among certain political groups there is a growing movement to silence opposing viewpoints. Left unchecked, if individuals that embrace this attitude gain significant political power, it could be the seeds of civil war. We've seen politicians of all stripes forced to abandon public venues and town halls due to these individuals actively working to silence their speech rather than intelligently engage them with an opposing viewpoint. You can only use this tactic for so long before those that are silenced will begin to evaluate remedies to regain their freedoms.

Any freedom that is deprived via brute force or mob action may well cause a similar response to regain that right.

He's a Nazi with a capital "N" and a deluded one at that.

Everyone has the right to speak but people like David Duke, Richard Spencer, and Jared Taylor invite mass protest. If you are going to pay for the secure venue and extra security personnel they can scream the Fourteen Words and yell "Hail Victory" all night long for all I care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2017 11:52PM by anybody.

Tear apart? Oh, I don't think so.

I'm more inclined to think America will simply deflate, like a desultory soufflé. It may make a soft farting sound while doing so.

Fingers will point in umpteen directions, including toward religion, but religion will be only partly culpable. There's plenty of blame to go around. Allowing elites to amass unprecedented wealth and power, dependency on a car culture that divides families and communities, squandering trillions on unnecessary armaments that only benefit the military-industrial complex, a regressive taxation policy, creating de facto caste systems in education and healthcare, abetting class and racial conflict to insulate the rich and powerful, a two-party system that equates to Tweedledee and Tweedledum, corporate-controlled media that focuses on irrelevancies at the expense of exposing root causes to social problems.

Religion? Get in line.

Your post is the closest to what I was thinking regarding this subject. I do not think one can pinpoint to one issue as the root cause for a country's "tearing apart". Rather, there are several factors that lead a nation towards decline. We can look at history and see examples: Greece, Egypt, Rome, United Kingdom, etc. America is a relatively young nation and are probably at or near our apex. We believe that we are somehow a blessed nation and will continue indefinitely in our prosperity. This will likely not be the case. We are dealing with the same problems that will lead us towards a decline.

Because Americas always been diverse. Random radical Protestant colonies witchcraft came in with them apparently (or hear them talk)and Random Catholic strongholds generated Quakers Mormons within generations then came Est who knows what's next. Buddhism came in from the other coast magic developed came in from the Caribbean, cultural religions from indigenous populations both inland and on our islands- we are rocking with religion always have been. Catholicism was imported Protestantism was imported Hindu was imported Siek was imported Muslim was imported Buddhism was imported, but Mormonism was made in America with the hippies just a hundred years earlier. I think we'll be fine. this is America. For a one religion state sponsored official religion nation it probably blows their minds. But we'll be fine, woven with threads of many cultures we are woven through with a multi religious melieu

"Older, whiter, southern more rural America"

In reverse order:
The nation is becoming more urban. Utah is extreme, with over two thirds of its population in four counties and the remaining thirty percent or so spread over the other nineteen. There are similar population concentrations in other regions.

Lot of northeasterners and Midwesters moving to the Raleighs and Atlantas of the south.

"Whiter" reliably ticks down a fraction of a percent every year. The young and urban are generally fine with this.

"Older" will die off sooner than "younger", guaranteed.

TMSH and getbusyliving have it right. This subject deserves more discussion and exposure as there are many who still don't recognize the threat posed by the powerful and secretive multinationals.

They have no allegiance to any nation and in fact seek to divest nations of national sovereignty. Their goal is State Capture which if achieved will ensure their continued wealth and control over the affairs of humanity into perpetuity. They have contempt for the vision of the founders i.e. a government of by and for the people and have no confidence in your and my ability to govern our own affairs. They are bi-partisan and seek to control the agendas of both parties. They are a class of men who don't need a crystal ball as they leave nothing to chance and will resort to any criminal means to ensure their power,even starting wars at times.

Their primary weapons include control of information (disinformation and distraction from real issues), false flags and the control of money i.e. control of monitory policy, fiscal policy and markets. Also the usurpation of policy via think thanks, lobbyists and other means.

I could list many more methods of conquering and controlling. Lord Acton (1834-1902) was well aware of the nature of these powerful influences when he said “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” He also said “the issue that has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people vs. the banks.”

Here is a snapshot of some of their activities:

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=inalienable+definition&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=silent+weapons+for+quiet+wars+pdf&;*

This might be a better link:

http://www.stopthecrime.net/docs/SILENT%20WEAPONS%20for%20QUIET%20WARS.pdf

Looks like Felix is on to something here folks. The craziness going on the in the world has its roots in the economy and corrupt politics being bought of by multinationals. If you really want to understand money watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

Any thinking person who works their life away for money should know the monetary system. I you don't its like drinking water your whole life without understanding how its connected to rain and snow. I implore you to watch and consider this video. If wrapping your mind around Mormonism rocked your world. This is right up there.

Crazy economy = crazy people

The middle class has been taking it on the nose for decades. Stagnate wages, record high debt, record high student loans, shrinking unions. "Free trade" has gutted industry and decent jobs. Now we have a problem. By and large people DO NOT understand our monetary policy. Now people are pissed they feel the squeeze and feel uneasy about the future. Instead of learning WHY? They cling to ideologies to fix their problems. This is nothing more than a manifestation of tribalism. Shit is effed up, instead of asking why they group up to swing at perceived threats to their ideologies without taking into consideration the cause of the pain. Trump, Brexit, and far right movements in Europe are a manifestation of thing phenomena. Ask yourself WHY does neither the right or left ever give any attention to our monetary system?

Here's an analogy to make my point. What happens if you have a bunch of animals in a cage and feed them well? They will rarely fight. Now you trim down the supply of food to a bare minimum. Now the animals will fight tooth and nail for the scraps, if they are smart they will group up so the stronger will prevail. We are the animals who have been propagandized to never look at the captors. We are taught to keep infighting while being "legally" defrauded. Trump, Brexit, and far right movements in Europe, are a manifestation people showing they are unhappy with their captors but still unaware of who is really screwing them over.

You are correct about the money system thinking. The Revolutionary war was fought to free ourselves from the money interests (East India Trading Co. and Committee of 300). We declared victory but they never conceded defeat. They largly abandoned the old fashioned frontal assult (overt warfare) in favor of covert means (infiltration and influence i.e. the federal reserve act and much more) of acheiving their aims (expansion and control and ultimately world government).

Americans are over entertained and under informed and know little of the true history of this ongoing battle. Americans are in such persuit of the American Dream that they fail to preserve it to their posterity.

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free... it expects what never was and never will be." Thomas Jefferson

....welcome to the plantation !!!!..... ( abe did not abolish slavery, he just helped to make it more equal opportunity)

I think that the information society that creates our new found wealth as a society, will eventually save us. Secret societies have always existed. Shortly after the church installed large satellite dishes at every Stake Center, some church members started communicating for the first time en-mass via the internet, about how the temple death threats affected their psyche and their family life. These events were tied together, only because the expanded use of technology to maintain the balance.

John McCain recently said something about the new world order being shaken up recently. Well, who is this New World Order? Why was I not taught about this new world order in Elementry school? For years, many people snickered and saw New World Order believers as radical conspiracy theorists. Then George Bush Sr started talking about the new world order and a thousand points of light, like we should all know about it already. The other shoe has yet to drop on that topic.

People don't like their money (and thus their lives) being controlled by a secret society any more than they like having their church leaders threatening to cut their throats open from ear to ear. The various religions are just the vehicles that are used to assert control over the people. Countries don't get torn apart over religious beliefs. They get torn apart over unfair allocations of resources (money, food, medical care, etc...).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 08:07AM by azsteve.

I believe a greater threat to unity is the labeling of people and they way it separates and chokes off dialog. If we can label people, it seems, and put them into a neat little box it helps us avoid listening to what they actually have to say. I am old enough to remember a culture when the term liberal was not an insult nor a term for license but a legitimate perspective for looking at issues. Today, the term is thrown around like an expletive to disparage the one so labeled. Liberals, in turn, use terms like ultra conservative or rightist as part of a process to marginalize. That we have taken this labeling to an extreme is, to me, evidenced by what is happening in Congress and across the country today.

I think the founding fathers really did plan for the future. That's why smaller rural states get more representation than what their population equates in the electoral college.

It's our duty to preach politics and slowly convince people to live up to certain values. The diversity and minorities in the big cities over time when as they work hard tend to prosper, when this happens and they start owning property they will lean more to the right over time. And become conservative. We just all have to be patient

and the small states only got equal representation in the Senate.