When I was on the afterlife insurance policy sales trip I had what I called a "Zelph Shelf."

This was a hidden place in my head where I would store all of the problems with kolobianism that I didn't have a good answer to, like Zelph.

I was hoping everyone would list their top 5 Zelph Shelf items. I'll start:

1. If all gods were once men, how did the first god become a god without the help of a god? or, how did that god get its power and why couldn't I do the same?

2. Why would the elements obey the command of Elohim simply because another alien told them they had authority? or, if the elements have the ability to choose to obey or not obey, wouldn't that make them intelligences? If they were compelled to obey Elohim because he had some authority, doesn't that make them slaves?

3. If we didn't need special handshakes/passwords to get into the CK the first time, why would we need them to get back in?

4. Where did lucifer get his priesthood(s)? If from elohim, isn't he just doing his job? If from another god, why does the other god's priesthood work in elohim's creation?

5. If intelligences don't have gender, then why do the gods purposefully create a disproportionate amount of female spirits to male sprits? Wouldn't it make more sense to create a 50/50 ratio? -Edit: if it is a 50/50 ratio, what's polygamy really all about?

I'm interested in what you all struggled with before you realized it was all make-believe...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 06:36PM by chulotc is snarky.

1. why would an omnipotent God let people suffer? Why did he ignore children dying and find car keys instead?

2. how could it be that the most important church on Earth is one that most humans have never even heard of in their lifetimes? If earthly life is a big test, how come most people never get to take it?

Then the shelf broke.

Heresy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. why would an omnipotent God let people suffer?
> Why did he ignore children dying and find car keys
> instead?

This one is easy: Because God made us mortal, he doesn't think death is such a bad thing. Just because humans don't like something doesn't mean it isn't part of God's plan. Cats hate going to the vet, but their human knows that it's good for them.


> 2. how could it be that the most important church
> on Earth is one that most humans have never even
> heard of in their lifetimes? If earthly life is a
> big test, how come most people never get to take
> it?
>

This one is big. If the LDS Church is so important, why is it so pathetically small? There are 1 billion Catholics and 13 million Mormons. More people believe in reincarnation than resurrection in the world.

LDS growth rates have stagnated to where it will never be any bigger in the world than it is right now.
> Then the shelf broke.

Males and females ARE created in a 50/50 ratio. Anyone who has told you otherwise is pulling your leg.

Mine:

1) Why would a loving and presumably sane deity create a place of eternal torment and torture? (I was Christian, not Mormon.)
2) Why would any being create an immortal soul and then give them 120 years or (usually) less to figure out which of the many religious options are right and then determine their eternal disposition based on that? (Why not just have people keep doing it over and over again until they get it right?)
3) Why can't God come up with a better system that doesn't involve so much suffering? (Just how smart IS this deity?)

I really like your number 5, btw

4 is just too deep a thought for me. I did wonder why the temple was so focused on the devil.

Here are some of mine:

1. Isn't Lucifer an essential part of this "plan"? If so, aren't all the Lucifers on all the planets just doing what is necessary to move it along? If that ist true, how can Lucifer possibly be evil, or punished? Wouldn't the whole thing be for naught if he decided to stop tempting Adam and Eve?

2. When I do a ceremony for someone else who lived a wicked life, on purpose, and most definitely would NOT have accepted the church in this life, am I not taking part in giving them a free pass? What about Alma's teaching that this life is our one moment, "our final test"!?"

3. If all humans are equal, why does woman promise to "hearken" (used to be obey) to Adam in the same way he obeys God? Why don't the men in the room turn to the women and make the same promise? - this one is easy, but the answer was disturbing.

4. Where is/are Heavenly Mother(s) in the temple? All the other big players are represented, even James, who never accomplished anything in the Bible. I came to the temple for the deep doctrine? Show me my mama, dangit!

5. Eternity + timelessness (I ranted about this earlier in my Hell thread). If there is timelessness, then everything is already done, decided. Period.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 06:33PM by rogertheshrubber.

Your number 1 used to make the best "celestial room whispering session" topic. I'd be like, "what if nobody wanted to play lucifer in the endowment video... would there be an endowment session?" And the other guys would be like, "nope."

And I'd say, "if Lucifer was REALLY evil don't you think the best thing he could do to thwart elohim's plan would be do to NOTHING?" And the other guys would be like, "yeah."

And I'd say, "so do you REALLY think Lucifer's evil?" and everybody would get pale-faced.

We might as well have been discussing whether Mace Windu or Yoda was more powerful. It would have been just as valid.

Yoda...

He is much older and wiser. Come on guys, this is an easy one.

If you think about it, most intergalactic wars come down to a one-on-one battle, so it doesn't matter how smart you are, you have to be able to perform in clutch situations.

Luke was no match for Vader in age or wisdom, but he somehow vanquished him with the saber. That was all that mattered.

I'm going with Windu.

Yoda was 900 years old when he died. And he's only 3 feet tall. 'Nuf said.

That everything Lucifer says is 100% in line with Mormon teachings. And THEY are the ones who combine "philosophies of men." JFC! The BoM is loaded with critiques of 19th century protestant doctrines, for F's sake.

I grew up on Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McKonkie, and Cleon Skousen, etc. For me, a 6000 year earth, a literal Noah's Flood, and Tower of Babel were not optional.

It seems too stupid to admit now, but I really did think when I got around to figuring out the truth about those things, they would be true. It took till fairly late in life for me to take the time to investigate.

Once I found that only complete idiots believe those things, I started reading both sides of all the Church issues. Most of the issues went right to the shelf. (at least a hundred) Finally the shelf broke.

I remember the exact point in time,...where I was,... what I was reading,... how it felt. I absolutely knew in that instant, without doubt. It is all a pile of B.S.! I have never doubted since. Once you have really seen it, you can't un see it.

1. young earth vs 4.5 billion year old earth

2. if god got everything started then what started god?

3. if i can learn the secret names and handshakes on the internet why do i need to go to the temple?

4. if the prophet can speak as a man, how can we know anything they say is inspired?

5. if the d&c says the word of wisdom comes not by way of commandment why do they make it a requirement for baptism?

The Zelph Shelf is good. I wish I had thought of it.

...but if you should experience tithing withdrawals I have paypal :)

I also like how a couple people have used the phrase "the shelf broke" which is a very clever way of saying we realized how ridiculous kolobianism is.

1. Modern day prophets never had anything new to say. Except telling people to obey asinine rules.

2. The "glory of god" was "intelligence" but most Mormons and Mormon leadership were incredibly ignorant people.

3. How could you become god by submitting completely to god's will?

4. Tithing vs. "priestcraft" in the BoM.

5. Why would god hide evidence of his church?

If someone leads a righteous life but forgets the handshakes then they don't get into the CK?
Or if an evil person knows the handshake they can trick God and get in? The handshake and names make no sense. And God needs paperwork to keep track of who people are sealed to? An all knowing all powerful god needs paperwork, handshakes and stupid secret names? It'a hard for me to understand a god that is so hung up on technicalities. It is so ridiculous.

That always bothered me along with the blacks and the priesthood, polygamy,who made god, and actually a lot of stuff like all of the far fetched bible and BoM stories like the ark, talking donkeys, etc. pretty much everything about the religion was put on the shelf. None of it makes sense.

"pretty much everything about the religion was put on the shelf"

can i get an amen? Amen..

As I put the teachings of the church on the shelf one by one I was able to finally put Joe Smith on the shelf and I understood that I had been had. I was at work when I realized the truth and I said "I don't believe this shit". For a brief moment I felt like I had committed the unpardonable sin.
I can't put my finger on any one thing except for the final realization that it was all false. I hope that I haven't strayed from the topic.

Which god's rules should a prudent space traveler obey, if traveling from the dominion of one god to the region of influence of another god? For example, it's just possible that some gods would allow, perhaps require, the drinking of coffee or wine, as a holy sacrament. At the same time this god might prohibit polygamy, the use of secret hand-clasps, and the wearing of special underwear -- all very Mormon activities. What would a good Mormon from Planet Earth (or Kolob) do in this case?

yeah, exactly! And n-o-b-o-d-y would touch those questions with a 10-foot pole!

I mean, this is important stuff here. They're telling us we're going to have bodies, which means we'll be stuck in 4 dimensions forever..

Did it ever occur to anyone that we might just want to do a little traveling around the cosmos? Maybe see if some other gods are doing things a little differently than oh-so-wise elohim? He already admitted that he's just doing what was done before him. Doesn't anybody have any imagination?

Are there evil gods out there who gave Lucifer his priesthoods? Was Lucifer a double-agent? If I go to that god's sphere of creation will he tell me things that would convince me that elohim's really the evil one?

Inquiring minds wanted to know until the shelf broke.

How appropriate: the Zelph shelf. Yup, I had one, till too many things were shelved on it & it crashed.

1. If all 'worthy' males hold the priesthood, where are all the stories about raising people from the dead? If they really could do that, trust me: those stories would be spreading like wildfire.

2. Why don't the modern prophets prophesy? or revelate? Or see visions?

3. First polygamy was a commandment, then it wasn't. Did God lie?

4. 'All the thinking has been done for you' - never could wrap my mind around that one.

We were so delusional that we would hope that THIS general conference would be THE ONE with the big message we were hoping for but knowing there would be nada.

I have to think back 10 years so at the time the shelf included the following:

1 - Where's the physical proof for the BOM? Cities, people, artifacts, etc.

2 - Where's the current day prophecy?

3 - The temple changes. Didn't go through the temple, but we were working through to getting to the temple prep classes, so we started researching.

4 - Why aren't the people in the wards generally 'nice'? These are the most judgmental, narcissistic, nose-in-the-air people I've ever been around. Did I mention self-righteous? I grew up Baptist/Pentecostal/other protestant depending and the Mo's hold the self-righteous title all to themselves and 2nd place is way behind.

5 - Where is the support and charity for the people that truly need it? Not just church people. Why does charity always need recognition?

#3 was the tipping point and 4&5 were added weights that crushed the shelf and threw everything on the floor.

I hear the "why would god let people suffer stuff all the time"
as a reason for not believing in him quite a bit here. I guess I just view it differently than many people here. OT a bit.

One thing that I never got was why god is such a bad parent that only 0.0001% of his kids become as good as he is and have the stuff he has? I mean I think a good parent should have a better batting average than that...

On the other hand, I have "different beliefs" now and I believe everyone can ALWAYS progress, given enough time and help.

Peace.

1. When, in the history of everything we know, has an entire race of people just changed color?

2. As endless as space seems, it still is not. If there has been an endless line of gods, some of them do not have planets.

1) Why don't prophets prophesy? When was the last time an LDS prophet said anything useful?

2) If homosexuality is such a big deal, why didn't JS or Jesus say anything about it? You will find nothing about it in the BofM, the D&C, PGP or the 5 Gospels.

3) How did Nephi lop off a guy's head, put on his blood-drenched clothes, and tricked the guy's servant into carrying heavy metals plates to the edge of town before he realized that it wasn't the guy he'd worked for years for. Why then would he run off with the murderous theif who had killed his master and stolen his property?

4) How did the Nephites-Lamanites go from a small family to thousands of people in a couple generations?

5) Why would God create billions of people and then only expect a handful to be saved? If the worth of one soul is great, then why are billions of souls wasted?

6) Why is Mormon eternity just an extension of this life, and why is it so centered on reproduction?

No matter how you cut it, the numbers never added up. Not even close.

I presented this question to my dad, and I he could tell me was to have faith and that it would all be made right in the millenium.

Disclaimer: these numbers are wrong - all skewed toward TBM beliefs. The real disproportionality is much larger.

Lets say there have been 20 Billion people since Adam.

Of these, only a few thousand had the "fullness of the gospel" in Jesus' time before the world disappeared. In the latter-days, there have been 20 million mormons, MAX.

Only half of the members of the church have anything to do with the church at all (called "inactive" by TBMs. They usually call themselves anything but mormons). This has been true since the pioneer times.

down to 10 million who could be saved

Of self-identified mormons, the church has said that only 1 in 5 have a current temple recommend. Since temple worship is essential for salvation, I cannot assume anyone who dies with an expired recommend gets to see the CK.

down to 2 million who could be saved

To assume that every temple-goer is sealed in eternal marriage and faithful in everything else in life strains credulity to the breaking point, but since we are giving the lds narrative the benefit of the doubt, lets just use that number.

2 million have a chance at the CK (without having everything important in life done for them vicariously)

Out of 20 billion humans who have lived.

2,000,000
----------
20,000,000,000

.01%

That is the percentage of God's precious children that he has saved so far. One in 10,000 children gets saved.

The other 18 billion are either damned or "need their work done."

Wow.

Now, lets be a TAD more realistic and admit there have likely been around 100 billion humans.

Adjusting one more assumption to make it realistic, lets say only half of temple-goers are faithful.

God has now saved .001%

Most realistically, the "restored truth" has now made a difference for 1 in 100,000 people.

So, we could pack one of the largest stadiums in the world with soccer fans, and god would have achieved the "immortality and eternal life" of ONE person.

My shelf period lasted about one year, and consisted entirely of the temple.

While hoping to learn a mystery of life and progression I instead joined a death cult, that appeared to mean it, repeating several times, and in what specific grisly manner I would die.

My own mother (not having been herself) told me I had a demon when I told her why I left. Her uncle told her it was true, "but we don’t do that anymore".

Now, if I had a shelf it would be that "we don't do that anymore". What is church doctrine? Will Hallie Berry be a slave because she is darker than me? Will Larry Bird be exalted because he is whiter than all of us?

"I don’t know that we teach that."

Who can believe in something that has no form or permanence, it's like believing in a cloud. Now a pirate ship, now a bunny, no no! It's a polished turd, with stripes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2011 01:04PM by roflmao.