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Posted by: SonOfLaban ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:13AM

Should obviously decrepit coots who were once valiant be ushered out, giving more presentable specimens the opportunity to win friends and influence suckers?

What will happen when there are 8 or 9 Brethren on oxygen, or snoozing, slobbering, babbling or otherwise acting their ages whilst flanking the Rameumptum?

What should the only true church do with a tradition far from the intellect of God...the policy that says the old farts should serve until past-functionality?

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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:24AM

the same thing they do with old seventies--retire as emeritus. Quite expensive, but they don't care about that anyway.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:41AM

What worthwhile purpose do they serve anyway?

The church is actually run by faceless bureaucrats therefore the quorum of wheezing old geezers are just window dressing.

And rather unattractive window dressing at that.

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:48AM

This is to become increasingly relevant as we learn to keep people alive for longer and longer.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:56AM

In the past apostles have resigned and not because of old age.

The myth of god takes em when he wants them is relatively new.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 10:26AM

The best apostle is a useless apostle. You don't need any positive change messing up the church's slow decline.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 10:53AM

Soylent Green

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 11:11AM


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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 01:25AM

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Soylent Green


If that's done to Monson or his successors, it could replace the bread at sacrament.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 01:25AM by adoylelb.

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Posted by: Lurker 1 ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 01:03PM

Just because an old apostle is "always an apostle" doesn't mean he has to be part of the quorum. By keeping non-functioning apostles as part of the quorum or part of the first presidency or even as the prophet just makes a strong statement that 12 apostles are not necessary, a first presidency of three apostles is not necessary, or that even a prophet is not necessary for the church to function. It is a shame. If the organization was run correctly with vibrant, inspired leaders, it could be a great force for good.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 01:09AM

Choot 'em!

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 01:27AM

First approach:

Ring around the rosie,
No one called and chosey,
Ash can, ash can.
You all fall down.
_____


Second approach:

The theoretical method for removing old Mormon apostles/prophets has been explained one way in the officially-published version of Mormon Church succession protocol but is actually something quite different in practice. The do-as-we-say-not-as-we-do approach was better in terms of being more realistic, but has never been consistently implemented due to personal power-mongering among the Twelve in their fight to ascend.

Historian D. Michael Quinn explains--using my enfeebled Church president grandfather Ezra Taft Benson as an example. He notes that First Presidency counselors Thomas S. Monson and Gordon B. Hinckley secretly conspired to angle themselves into the position of operating as the de facto Mormon Church president, in clear violation of official Mormon Church governing procedure:

"By May 1989 . . . counselors [Hinckley and Monson] felt it necessary to execute legal documents giving them Ezra Taft Benson's 'power of attorney [which] shall not be affected by his "disability" or "incompetence.'"

"However, Benson was already affected by that 'disability.'

"Despite a notarized statement by the First Presidency's secretary, President Benson did not sign those documents himself. A signature machine produced Benson's identical signatures on these legal documents.

"Without public acknowledgment, this machine-signed document formally ended an official provision for dissolving the First Presidency that had been in print for ninety years. Since 1899 the book 'Articles of Faith,' 'Written By Appointment; and Published By the Church,' had specified that the 'First Presidency is disorganized through the death or disability of the President.'

"However, this 1989 document specified that the counselors would not dissolve the First Presidency or surrender their powers despite the fact of the church president's 'disability' or 'incompetence.'

"The current apostles have supported this policy, even though the officially published 'Articles of Faith' continues to specify that when there is 'disability of the President, the directing authority in [church] government reverts at once to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles." (D. Michael Quinn, "The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books], pp. 58-59; fn 243-245, p. 432)


The “Salt Lake Tribune” affirmed the story through its own investigative reporting efforts:

"In the years before his death President Benson suffered from poor health, suffering from blood clots in the brain, strokes, and heart attacks. During this time, Benson almost never appeared in public, and First Counselor Gordon B. Hinckley took on many of Benson's official duties, as he had done as Second Counselor in Kimball's last years.

"Joining Hinckley in this task was Thomas S. Monson, and the two of them received legal power of attorney to act in Benson's behalf in LDS corporate affairs. Important ecclesiastical and family documents continued to be signed in Benson's name, with the aid of a signature machine.

"There was some controversy as to whether Benson's actual mental health during this time was accurately portrayed by the Church. According to Church spokesman Don LeFevre, Hinckley and Monson reviewed major Church decisions with Benson in his home, where he was attended by a staff of nurses.

"However, according to Benson's grandson Steve Benson, who later became a vocal, anti-Mormon critic of the Church that he quit, the elder Benson by about 1993 was living in a sweatsuit, fed by others, and incapable of recognizing others or speaking coherently.

"Steve Benson stated that in a private meeting with apostle Dallin H. Oaks, Oaks explained to the younger Benson that the apostles rotated in pairs each week to visit the elder Benson at the apartment socially, but that Benson was incapable of conducting official business. . . .

"The fact that President Benson's counselors did not have a great deal of confidence in his ability to function became evident when documents filed with the state of Utah were examined by the 'Salt Lake Tribune':

"'Documents on file with the state of Utah are strong evidence that the parent corporation of the Mormon Church no longer is being directed by its president, Ezra Taft Benson.

"'It is the first time since the corporation was founded 70 years ago that anyone other than the Church president has obtained total authority over Utah's most powerful corporation.

"'The documents, at the Utah Department of Commerce, were signed with a machine that duplicates the signature of 94 year-old President Benson. They were filed six months before President Benson . . . made his last public speech.

"'Church leaders said this week the filings and the use of a signature machine were routine, and done with President Benson's approval.... Today, the corporation owns all Church assets--including a multi-billion dollar portfolio of financial and property holdings. . . .

"'Entitled "Certificates of Authority' and dated May 23, 1989, the documents say Presidents Hinckley and Monson can keep those complete powers--even if President Benson becomes disabled or is determined by a court to be incompetent. . . . the Church made no announcement of the change. It has continued to portray President Benson as the ultimate power behind Church affairs. . . .

"'Fran Fish, notary public administrator for the state Department of Commerce, said signatures written by machine are legal . . . .

"'Still, Ms. Fish . . . said use of a signature machine on state corporate filings 'is certainly out of the norm.'. . . Steve Benson . . . has said that his aging grandfather no longer possesses the mental faculties to handle Church affairs.

"'"The Church has misrepresented the condition of President Benson and stated flatly that his role as prophet has in no way been impeded," Steve Benson said this week. "My grandfather has become a storefront mannequin while the business of the store is conducted behind closed doors."

"'He said a signature machine has replaced his grandfather's hand on all personal and family correspondence.”Evidently," Steve Benson said, "the signature machine had not been programmed to sign, 'Grandpa.'"'"('Salt Lake Tribune,' 15 August 1993)"

(To view the actual signature machine-created signature of Ezra Taft Benson on the incorporation documents mentioned above, see "Hinckley Monson and Ezra Taft Benson's Signature Machine," by "cricket" [Steven Clark], 30 December 2006, http://www.salamandersociety.com/legal/; see also, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, "Mormon Inquisition?: LDS Leaders Move to Repress Rebellion," under "Non-Functional Prophets," in "Salt Lake City Messenger," No. 85, November 1993, http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no85.htm)


The journalism trade magazine, “Editor & Publisher” also reported on the backroom power transfer:

"[Steve] Benson's views seemingly were verified by an article in the Salt Lake Tribune, Salt Lake City. A reporter at the paper sifted some eye-popping information from Utah's corporation records. The published report said the corporation that manages the Church effected in 1989 a transfer of power from Ezra Taft Benson to his two counselors, Gordon Hinckley and Thomas Monson. That was done the same year that his grandfather last was seen in public, Benson said.

"'This is what's so ironic,' he said.’The Church leaders and members are saying, 'Steve, where's your faith? Don't you have faith God could raise Ezra Taft Benson to speak and lead the church?' But in secret the leaders of the church had amended the faith that God would do that. . . . They put their faith not in God but in the lawyers who transacted the papers and who actually assured the transfer of power to them.'" (Walt Jayroe, "Drawing the Line on Religion," in "Editor & Publisher," 1994, at: http://www.lds-mormon.com/benson1.shtml)


Further reporting:

"[Mormon] Church leaders acknowledge[d] that during the past four years Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson have held absolute control, legally, of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Though a signature machine was used to append Benson's signature to documents transferring control from Benson to Hinckley and Monson, the two certificates of authority filed in May, 1989, were declared legal (in 'Salt Lake Tribune,' 15 August 1993, p. C 1)." (Timothy Oliver, Rick Branch, and James Walker, "Historical Events, Notable Doctrines: Mormonism Overview," in "Watchman Expositor," vol. 13, #4, 1996)


Hinckley, plain and simple, lied to Mormon Church members in General Conference about the extent and severity of ETB's rapidly failing health. Notice how, in this Mormon Church account of a Hinckley October 1992 General Conference talk, he mentioned nothing about ETB's deteriorating and debilitating mental condition indeed, he spoke only of his weak physical state, thereby misleadingly implying that ETB was still mentally functional--which was not the case at all. (If ETB had, in fact, been regarded as being mentally functional enough to make adminstraive decisions as Mormon Church president, there would have been no need for a surreptious power hand-over by signature machine to Hinckley and Monson):

“President Gordon B. Hinckley's account of a dramatic experience aboard a jetliner as it approached the airport set the tone for his Sunday morning address.

“President Hinckley, first counselor in the First Presidency, was returning from a regional conference when the captain announced that there was an emergency and asked passengers to obey crew members' instructions. An off-duty pilot, recognizing President Hinckley, told him, 'The primary control system has failed, but I think we are going to be all right. They have managed to get the landing gear down and the flaps down.'

"'Strangely, I felt no fear,' President Hinckley recalled. 'I knew that a redundancy system had been built into the plane to handle just such an emergency, and that the crew had been well-trained.'

“The congregation laughed when he said, 'I also knew that the effectiveness of that redundancy system would be known in a minute or two when the rubber hit the runway.'

“The aircraft landed without mishap. 'The crew were appropriately applauded, and some of us expressed to the Lord our gratitude,' President Hinckley related.

"'I have reflected on this experience in terms of the Church of which we are members.'

“Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, but the earthly head is the prophet, he explained, adding that while President Ezra Taft Benson holds all the keys of the priesthood, he has reached an age that places limitations on his PHYSICAL activities [emphasis added], as have prophets in the past.

"'Some people, evidently not knowing the system, worry that because of the president's age, the Church faces a crisis. They seem not to realize that there is a backup system. In the very nature of this system, there is always on board a trained crew, if I may so speak of them. They have been thoroughly schooled in Church procedures. More importantly, they also hold the keys of the eternal priesthood of God.'

“Each of the 15 men ordained as apostles holds the keys of the priesthood, but only the president has the right to exercise them in their fullness, President Hinckley explained.

“'We who serve as counselors recognize and know the parameters of our authority and our responsibility. Our only desire is to assist and help our leader with the tremendous burdens of his office. The Church is growing large, with more than 8 million members now. . . . The responsibilities are many and varied.

"'But I can say that regardless of the circumstances, the work goes forward in an orderly and wonderful way. As it was during the time when President Kimball was ill, we have moved without hesitation where there is well-established policy. Where there is no firmly established policy, we have talked with the president and received his approval before taking action. Let it never be said that there has been any disposition to assume authority or to do anything or say anything or teach anything which might be at variance with the wishes of him who has been put in his place by the Lord.'

“Quoting D&C 107:23-24, President Hinckley said the Council of the Twelve Apostles form a quorum equal in power and authority to the First Presidency, but they are always under the direction of the First Presidency.

“President Hinckley contrasted the work of the Lord with the process of electing government officials: 'No member of the Church in his right mind would think of applying for ecclesiastical office.' Rather, he said, Church officers are called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority.

“He expressed confidence that all General Authorities confess to the Lord their weaknesses and plead for strength and wisdom.

“He said the Brethren pray together and periodically partake of the sacrament together, and from various backgrounds and experiences, discuss problems and ways to improve and strengthen the work.

"'At the outset of these discussions, there may be various points of view. But before the discussion is ended, there is total unanimity, else no action is taken. The Lord Himself has declared that such unity is an absolute necessity.'

“He affirmed that the General Authorities would never lead the Church astray because the Lord Jesus Christ has the power to remove any found remiss in his duty or teaching that which is not in harmony with His divine will.

"'I say for each and all of us that we have no personal agenda. We have only the Lord's agenda. There are those who criticize when we issue a statement of counsel or warning. Please know that our pleadings are not motivated by any selfish desire. Please know that our warnings are not without substance and reason. Please know that the decisions to speak out on various matters are not reached without deliberation, discussion and prayer. Please know that our only ambition is to help each of you with your problems, your struggles, your families, your lives.'"

(“Built-in 'Backup' System Keeps Church on Course,” Gordon B. Hinckley, sermon at LDS General Conference,” as reported in “Church News,” 10 October 1992; subsequently published on the official LDS Church website as "The Church Is on Course," and posted on the website in selectively edited form with much of the above wording eliminated, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/10/the-church-is-on-course?lang=eng)


Hinckley continued the same deceptive theme throughout the same Conference, having kicked off the Saturday session with the same misdirect:

“My brethren and sisters, President Benson ordinarily would speak to us in the opening session of the conference and extend his warm welcome. We regret that he is not with us. He would wish to be here, and we wish that he were here. It is becoming increasingly hard for him to get out. His age makes public appearances difficult. He is now in his ninety-fourth year. It is not easy for him to do what he once did with such vigor and enthusiasm. His strong and vibrant voice has stirred all of us in times past. His eloquence in expounding the gospel and his tremendous testimony of this work, persuasive in its tone and cogency, have lifted all who have heard him. We miss him and pray that the Lord will comfort him and bless him that he may enjoy much of happiness for the remainder of his life.

“His burdens became much heavier when his beloved companion, Sister Flora Amussen Benson, passed away on August 14. They had been married for nearly sixty-six years. They have been an example to the entire Church. He now feels the terrible loneliness that comes to a man with the death of a gifted and beautiful wife, the mother of his children, his great support and comfort.

“Our hearts reach out to him in sympathy and love. We pray that the Lord will comfort him and sustain him and bring gladness into his heart while he yet remains with us as the prophet of God.

“He has asked that we go forward with the conference. We do so with his encouragement and with a prayer in our hearts that we will be blessed of the Lord—all who speak—that there may be a great spiritual outpouring among the Saints who will meet in many places and under a great variety of circumstances.”

(“Sin Will Not Prevail,” Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1992 General Conference, Salt Lake City, Utah, reprinted in “Ensign,” November 1992, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/10/sin-will-not-prevail?lang=eng)


My grandfather was not actually functioning as Mormon Church president in his last years slumped on the throne. He was merely a prop, not a prophet. When they felt it necessary to keep him stage-managed for PR purposes but to, in the meantime, run the Church from behind the curtain, that's when Hinckley and Monson seized power by means of the secret autopen playbook--then let ETB die, having effectively pushed him aside in order for the Mormon Church to go about its business.

This is how the Mormon Church effectively gets rid of its old leaders. Praise the Cult and pass on following the rules.



Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 02:36AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Historischer ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 02:25AM

Great information about the 30-year Hinckley conspiracy to gain absolute control of the church, which he couldn't quite pull off for various reasons.

I don't want to be vindictive, but it seems fitting that Monson should be forced to play the interminable role of functioning prophet, since he and Hinckley wanted the power so badly at one time. And now he's just a shell of the arrogant MBA who thought he could run a generational church using bottom-line business techniques.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 02:35AM

I've gone back and folded in some details about its elimination or alteration of parts of Hinckley's text:

(“Built-in 'Backup' System Keeps Church on Course,” Gordon B. Hinckley, sermon at LDS General Conference,” as reported in “Church News,” 10 October 1992; subsequently published on the official LDS Church website as "The Church Is on Course," in selectively different form from the "Church News" version, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/10/the-church-is-on-course?lang=eng)


Here's an example:

-As initially reported in the “Church News,” October 1992:

"Some people, evidently not knowing the system, worry that because of the president's age, the Church faces a crisis. They seem not to realize that there is a backup system. In the very nature of this system, there is always on board a trained crew, if I may so speak of them. They have been thoroughly schooled in Church procedures. More importantly, they also hold the keys of the eternal priesthood of God."


-As it appeared in the “Ensign,” November 1992:

“Some people, evidently not knowing the system, worry that because of the President’s age, the Church faces a crisis. They seem not to realize that there is a backup system. In the very nature of this system, there is always on board a trained crew, if I may so speak of them. They have been thoroughly schooled in Church procedures. More importantly, they also hold the keys of the eternal priesthood of God. They, too, have been put in place by the Lord."



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 03:24AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Historischer ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 02:48AM

Good catch. That's the stuff of which future narrative histories are made. Something big was going on, and even you may not have known half of it.

Things like that must have really stood out to you as you made up your mind to leave. And then my brother sent me a newspaper clipping about your resignation. Little did he know that I would Google your name, just for the heck of it, fourteen years later...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 03:13AM

I suppose one could call it post-utterance, tweaked-up modern-day revelation.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 03:27AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Historischer ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 04:21AM

Sure, that's very insightful. That's pretty much their definition of revelation these days.

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