My happiest and most enduring relationships have not involved marriage. My marriages were short-lived, compared to each of my non-married lovers. Temple marriage was totally ineffective to benefit us in any way. Like almost everything else in life today, marriage is bunk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

You mean a human institution that has been around for millennia that is found in nearly ever culture on the face of the planet? Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others or societies in general.

MTJohnson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You mean a human institution that has been around
> for millennia that is found in nearly ever culture
> on the face of the planet? Just because it didn't
> work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for
> others or societies in general.

Define, 'work', please.

OP, I think you mean, Marriage is Puh.

ha ha ha...

carameldreams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Define, 'work', please.

No offense, but you must be mentally challenged to ask such a question. Work, of course, means ...

♥ Providing companionship.
♥ To provide for the common good and defense.
♥ A gathering and focusing of wealth.
♥ A stable relationship to raise children.
♥ To teach children life skills, morality, gender rolls, etc.
♥ Create the strong social unit of a family, which means strong communities, which, in turn, means strong nations.
♥ And the rest.

As marriages and families continue to disintegrate, so does the western world.

It can be overrated especially if you're in a bad marriage.

It's the good marriages that stand the test of time that lends credence to marriage as an institution.

I'm like you though. My marriages were not the most enduring relationships I had.

The two men who might have been lifetime companions both died way too young. One in particular I was given a dream the night before we met we were a newlywed couple. He was gone in less than two years from then.

Both men I knew we had known each other in previous lifetimes - the deja vu was present with each person. Neither was Mormon. One was Roman Catholic, the other who I dreamt of prior to our meeting was Presbyterian turned agnostic from college when he became a wildlife biologist who made his living as a nuclear engineer.

I dreamt of his dying in the months before he died. Later I had a dream we were married in heaven - following his death, riding a white horse (learning later of the symbolic meaning for white horse means marriage.)

I'm not a student of reincarnation, but wonder if it's how we'll meet again in the eternities?

Both men died less than one year apart from each other. It's a weight I've had to live with my entire life.

The only other person I had the deja vu impression strongly felt was a dear girlfriend of mine who we met in high school. We were like soul sisters. She died at 48. Again, way too young as she was in the prime of her lifetime when she got breast cancer. She was the only one of the three who was LDS.

My other longest enduring relationship the man is also deceased I believe, since he hasn't called in a couple of years. He was older than me by a couple decades, and last I heard was living in assisted living due to Alzheimer's. He was a secular Jew. He was a pot head for as long as I knew him. I believe that contributed to his getting dementia. Neither of his parents suffered from it. His father created the Living Will, and co-founded Amnesty International. He lived well into his 80's, and was working right up until he died.

You had known both men in previous lifetimes?

You've never experienced deja vu?

Déjà vu, from French, literally "already seen", is the phenomenon of having the strong sensation that an event or experience currently being experienced has already been experienced in the past.

AmyJo:

I think you and Spiritist should seriously going into the psychic business together.

Spiritist is more into the practice for its own sake.

My experiences are personal and not something I've considered developing into a profession, let alone a hobby.

Lily Dale, New York is a town of psychic mediums. You cannot live there unless you are one. It's near my home. When I've visited it has its charm, but isn't something I wish to dabble in.

I like not knowing the future. What I've received in my life has been mostly to help my family or myself gain a deeper spirituality and sometimes warnings especially with my children. There were times I had warnings about my dad when he was alive for his health. I've received warnings too and protection by spiritual forces at various times in my life. I am thankful for them, but they weren't something I sought out when they happened. It has been proof to me we aren't alone in the universe nor are our lives without purpose.

If we've lived before, then I suspect we will live again. That isn't Christian necessarily. It does fit sort of in a Mormon construct, although Mormonism does not believe in reincarnation - but that we lived before this life, and are eternal beings.

I wouldn't have considered the possibility of reincarnation were it not for the experiences I've had with my close friends, who are now deceased that we knew each other before this life, and that we will meet again.

Judaism believes in the possibility of reincarnation. It doesn't pretend to have all the answers, unlike Mormonism. That's something I've come to appreciate about Judaism.

I am much too busy with 'other' things and have plenty of money, to get another job. Although, I wouldn't mind helping others. However, I have seen my help in those close to me and I have techniques to help those I don't know or not close so that will do for now. I have an ego and that gets in the way sometime.

My TBM wife did not like my 'past life' experiences very much at all.

I told her in a past life she was my mom, my youngest son was my dad, and I eventually married one of my current granddaughters. She was MAD especially when I called her mummy!

We were in another life, with other 'bodies' ----- it wasn't incest or anything bad at all, it's a 'reincarnation' fact to believers.

Soul groups, incarnate together, and for experience change roles, genders, ethnicity, etc. etc.

I guess you could call us an 'eternal family' but we can change groups for 'experiences' sometimes or to advance ----- whatever that means.

As far as 'marriage' --- it's definitely not eternal. We plan who will marry in advance of coming and with the, help of your spirit guides, that many do not recognize (the help or spirit guide), the key things (marriage/relationships, career, family, etc.) in life we planned to accomplish we 'normally' do accomplish. That means we may have planned to experience 'failed marriages/relationships', short lives, 'crimes', etc. ----- no problem we are helped to do that too!

It's tough to understand the 'eternal' perspective when 'human' ----- no doubt about that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2017 01:06AM by spiritist.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've never experienced deja vu?
>
> Déjà vu, from French, literally "already seen",
> is the phenomenon of having the strong sensation
> that an event or experience currently being
> experienced has already been experienced in the
> past.

In the pre-existence?

You sound like a 1-800 psychic.

Typical and normal useage of words and ideas.

What kind of neighborhood or people are you around that this is unusual to you, that you feel the need to comment on it
Or even disparage it?

Google " the science behind psychic phenomena " in Times magazine
It's an interview with a Harvard professor about their old book.

I think connecting in ways that are memorable is possibly metaphysical psychic not just physical... and a fortunate plus making some relationships lifetime events However long they last

Children are bunk beds.

:)

EXMO MGTOW!

In defense of Son of Laban, I don't think our current cultural norms of marriage are all that effective. I'd like to see a more comment sense culture--especially in Mormonism.

Marriage, IMO, ought to be a legal contract between two individuals promoting the long-term emotional, companionable, and financial well-being of both. Temple marriage promotes unhealthy expectations for perfectionism and romance and that unsustainable for many couples.

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EXMO MGTOW!
>
> In defense of Son of Laban, I don't think our
> current cultural norms of marriage are all that
> effective. I'd like to see a more comment sense
> culture--especially in Mormonism.
>
> Marriage, IMO, ought to be a legal contract
> between two individuals promoting the long-term
> emotional, companionable, and financial well-being
> of both. Temple marriage promotes unhealthy
> expectations for perfectionism and romance and
> that unsustainable for many couples.

- - - -

I am speechless.

That's funny because I almost posted what I really think about marriage--it should be good for five years--subject to another five year renewal, dependent upon both parties.

You mean it isn't?

I won't ever do it again. I believe it is my mormon upbringing that made it impossible for me. I tend to give up all my power to men if I put myself in a position of vulnerability, which for me is marriage.

My first wedding was the kind just about every young woman dreams of - gorgeous white dress, beautiful flowers, music, oodles of friends and family, and a groom so handsome in his Navy dress blues that he took my breath away.

In time, his viciousness nearly took my sanity away, too.

I eventually created a new life for myself, which included doing time as a Mormon. I had no intention of dating again, let alone marrying, but I met this guy, divorced, with full custody of his 3 kids. We had a very small wedding in the RS room, but it has lasted for 25 years, and I'm more in love every day.

I chucked the Mormon church, but the guy I found there is definitely a keeper.

When you are young marriage is the epitome of true love. Promises,promises. Sunshine, lollipops and rainbows.

When you are a little older marriage is an endurance test--like keeping the faith. So many things you now HAVE to do as part of the bargain.

When you want freedom-- Marriage is a ball and chain.

When you want to be yourself-- you find marriage is unwelcome compromise.

When you don't want to be Mormon anymore, well . . .

There is a reason that the best romantic stories are about the courtship, the pursuit. The stories about the married couples are all about the issues. They found out quickly what they never suspected was in the future. George? Martha?

In the end, marriage is a legal maneuver. That is all.

Having no legal reason that you have to be together means that when you are it is just because you want to be together. In that moment. In that time. Just because it feels good. Because, when you are old all that mattered was the companionship, the laughs, the shared life that means so much as you wish you had done something else.

Marriage is a way to get your spouse's life insurance and social security when they die. So, we need it.

Lucky are those out there who are the exception to prove this rule.

My tenth anniversary will be later this month. I've been happier in my marriage, with only a couple of really low times in terms of our relationship, than I ever imagined I would be.

That, scmd, is a great blessing.

Happy anniversary! :)

Along with Amyjo, that's wonderful! Here's to more wonderful times ahead for both of you (and Amyjo, too).

Tankoo. :)

Thanks, Amyjo and Boner. I knew I struck gold when I found her. My childhood nanny emailed me to tell me that the daughter of her friends, a Catholic on a student athlete scholarship to the Provo Zoo, was running in the canyon on Sunday mornings and asked me, since there was no chance I would be at sacrament meeting either, to hang out there to keep the wolves away. Once I saw her I very nearly became one of the wolves, but she liked me. I waited until she turned 18 to ask her out, and the rest is history.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2017 06:37AM by scmd.

Gatorman, MichaelC, and Ron, I'm envious. I really hope Jillian and I live long enough to be together for 40 years or longer. The almost ten years we've been together has slipped by so fast that sometimes it feels more like ten weeks. We'll still have the occasional rough patch -- I've heard that raising adolescents can be hard on a marriage -- but there's no one else I'd rather get through it with. and who knows? Maybe our children will be the rare angelic adolescents.

Mine didn't reach their terrible teens until their early 20's.

Buckle up, long ride ahead.

For a reference guide, when you need one, watch Steve Martin's and Diane Keeton's "Parenthood" I and II.

We've been married for 48 1/2 years. It has been a ride with both ups and downs, but it is a journey upon with I've been accompanied by my best friend. I wouldn't have missed this trip for anything.

Knocked off 41 years this past January. Have beaten Georgia in Jacksonville 28 of them...

Gatorman
Always the romantic upper deck Gator Bowl



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2017 09:12PM by gatorman.

My family has had some solid marriages. I think it helps that my family members don't rush into things.

It's certainly not for everyone -- which is one more reason Mormonism is bunk.

To me marriage seems like a trap. I have to side with my generation (millenial) on this one and say that I just really dont want that kind of obligation to something (love) that really can be so fleeting.

If I stay with someone for 10 years straight, Ill consider proposing to him. I guess Im looking at marriage in 2026.

I know that it can fail. I know plenty of folks who probably shouldn't have gotten married to each other and some who just "lost that lovin' feelin'" after 30 or 40 years. I got lucky and then we worked hard to make ours successful so I would respectfully disagree with your statement.

Many point out theirs is a good marriage as if that proves it makes a difference. If 20% of married people are happy, then marriage caused their happiness? Can't cherry pick the data.

Marriage is a fantasy, like any other religion. Promise to love someone, and voila, nothing can go wrong, right? At least until the power struggles begin. Which is what its really about - trying to get benefits for least cost.

Which is why we should put the agreement in writing - number of kids, required salaries, frequency of sex, household chore expectations, weight restrictions, etc, etc. But nobody wants that because they expect to get the better of their partner, and don't want any demands placed on them.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many point out theirs is a good marriage as if
> that proves it makes a difference. If 20% of
> married people are happy, then marriage caused
> their happiness? Can't cherry pick the data.
>
Yep. It's statistically valid to only that person who assumes it's 100% for everyone else.

I don't know if 'marriage is bunk' but it is often about bank, or lack thereof.

Power struggles - totally. And as many have experienced, allowing oneself to be controlled is inevitable unhappiness.

Emerson: '...imitation is suicide'. Institutions should be regularly and rigorously questioned/evaluated/revamped.

Institutions should be routinely burned to the ground.

After having survived a horrible first marriage, I realized that the only reason to commit matrimony again is because you WANT to.

I have - and will always have - the means to support myself, so I am not financially dependent.

If I didn't already have a BFF (even though she passed away two years ago), could my DH be next in line? Definitely. Probably the only passion that we don't share is swimming. But then, in my youth, I was a SoCal beach bunny. We love spending time together, which is REALLY important when you are retired.

We aren't happy because we're married. We're married because we're happy.

We are just pointing out that the sweeping generalization made by the OP, based on his own experience, doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Posted by Amyjo. Quote: "I wouldn't have considered the possibility of reincarnation were it not for the experiences I've had with my close friends, who are now deceased that we knew each other before this life, and that we will meet again."

P: IMO, Amyjo, your guideline does not (necessarily) indicate reincarnation (as you stated and appear to believe). Instead, it could imply that a spiritual body exists before it is clothed in a physically body (when one's spirit form of being is physically born on earth).

Amyjo: "If we've lived before,then I suspect we will live again."

P: Sounds reasonable to me.

Amyjo: "I wouldn't have considered the possibility of reincarnation were it not for the experiences I've had with my close friends, who are now deceased that we knew each other before this life, and that we will meet again."

P: Again, Amyjo, this does not have to be due to a so-called reincarnation. Instead, it can be one's spirit-form self, changing from being clothed with a physical body and leaving this physical self behind upon death, to return back again in the spirit form from which they began (albeit now educated and refined). (Besides, think, If we are all reincarnated, then how come the population increases all the time?)

IMO, one cannot experience evil in heaven while in a spirit form (because no evil can exist in heaven). Enter, therefore, the process of being able to gain a physical body, to gain experience which proves the difference between good and evil (which each of us has experienced).

The spirit children in heaven are provided the blessing of being able to gain a physical body, with which they can learn the meaning of pain, evil, and yes, goodness and joy.

That, in my opinion, is why spirit entities are sent to earth: To learn good from evil, and thereby, the necessity of rejecting and destroying evil. (Evil, IMO, represents injustice--which is the cause of so much pain on earth.)

Amyjo: "Judaism believes in the possibility of reincarnation."

P: Some do, and some don't. Some believe that death is the end, period (even as is the belief of many atheists, and even some Christians).

My father-in-law (born of a Christian mother), wasn't himself a Christian, and didn't believe in a here-after, but believed that death was the end. However (it may interest you to know), after his death he came to me a couple of times (in my mind's vision), to let me know he was happy where he was.

He even appeared to my husband (who was a non-believer in such things). My husband said he saw his father just sitting in the chair next to his, but neither saying a word to each other. They just enjoyed each-others' company for several minutes.

Best wishes, Amyjo.

P.

Thanks, PollyDee. Those are some new ideas for me to process and mull over.

Thanks for sharing them.

I had signs following my parents deaths. Each one, dad, step-mom, mom and step-dad.

It wasn't something I sought out, they just happened. But I look at them as gifts in time from each of my parents to me.

Stop blaming marriage for your bad choices.

I think it depends entirely on the individual; the problem is the tremendous pressure that society these days puts on everyone to get married, and the many factors that cause people to rush into it.

Personally I never wanted to get married. Mainly because I really cannot see myself spending the rest of my life with one person, but also because I don't agree with the idea that a relationship needs to be formalized.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2017 06:07AM by oneinbillions.

Marriage is definitely over-rated. Neighbors of mine have been together for decades, and have never married.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned raising children. I thought that was the primary reason to get married. Societal stability and all of that.

Both of my parents were married, but not to each other. Because this doesn't fit into the "societal stability" of marriage, I was placed for adoption. This did not make me stable. It made me sad and made me lose my family.

Marriage is a box we try like hell to put everyone into. I have to question why do we do this and does religion have anything to do with the real reason.

If a religion needs people and their money, is that why they push marriage?

If you can harness a man's resources by yoking him to a wife and children, does that make him more apt to give his money to a religion?

tankeryanker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both of my parents were married, but not to each
> other. Because this doesn't fit into the "societal
> stability" of marriage, I was placed for adoption.
> This did not make me stable. It made me sad and
> made me lose my family.

I'm sorry but you lost me here. Probably perfectly clear to everyone else but I'm confused.

All I was saying is I think the ideal situation for raising kids is to have their parents be legally married to each other and have everyone living under the same roof together. I understand the ideal isn't always possible. I also understand there are many exceptions where things are working out great without the classic 'Leave It To Beaver' thing going on.

In what way did I lose you?

My parents had an affair. Its not rocket science.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2017 05:02PM by tankeryanker.

Alright Internet Stranger... take it easy.

So your parents had an affair and because of 'societal stability' they couldn't keep you around? Too embarrassing or something? And evidently your adopted family turned out to not be so great either?

Look, that's horrible. And I'm very sorry. Nobody should have to through something like that.

bohica Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alright Internet Stranger... take it easy.
>
> So your parents had an affair and because of
> 'societal stability' they couldn't keep you
> around? Too embarrassing or something? And
> evidently your adopted family turned out to not be
> so great either?
>
> Look, that's horrible. And I'm very sorry.
> Nobody should have to through something like that.

Not embarrassing, it was against the law. Both of my parents could have been sued with adultery and lose their children. My mother would have had zero funds as there was no alimony or child support even if she could convince the courts she wasn't unfit.

What adoptive parents have to do with anything I don't know. Adoptive parents are not going to replace family anymore that prosthetics replace limbs.

Social stability is not real. Its an illusion. Even today if people have affairs, they tend to divorce and move on and have stepfamilies and such. Marriage does not create social stability.

You could have unmarried people create the same stability (or lack there of)

Mormons see "marriage" as only polygamy-inspired temple nonsense, and have a "one thing must work for everyone" attitude.

Many other christians see "marriage" as only the "traditional" one man, one woman, man works, woman stays home and raises kids, and "one thing must work for everyone."

Me...married once, it's lasted 25 years and is great.
That might not be the case for other people.
I'm all for whatever works for each individual.
Want to get married? Enjoy.
Don't want to? Enjoy.
Got in one and it's not working? Get out, and enjoy.
Screw "tradition." Go with what works for you. Just don't get all arrogant and claim that what works (or doesn't work) for you is the same for everyone else.

1) Where/when did you live that adultery had such dire consequences??

2) Many people are adopted as babies and raised in very good and loving homes. Happens all the time.

3) If you want to believe that societal stability is an illusion, you're entitled to your POV. I'm not going to argue with you.

bohica Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) Where/when did you live that adultery had such
> dire consequences??
>
> 2) Many people are adopted as babies and raised in
> very good and loving homes. Happens all the time.
>
>
> 3) If you want to believe that societal stability
> is an illusion, you're entitled to your POV. I'm
> not going to argue with you.
Good ole USA in the 60's
Adoption needs to end. Want to really learn about adoption? Did you know that the Mormons were some of the biggest baby brokers out there? Yep, the still own or run Adoption.com. Slowed their role when they would have to allow gays to adopt. Now they say that it is okay for their members to keep their children instead of pressuring them to give their kid up.
Great adoptive parents means nill.

http://adultadopteesupport.org/wanttoadopt.html

Agreed, there is no point. Marriage does not provide much of anything.

I lost a child to LDSSS mid-70's. Not only to a closed adoption, but the LDS church literally erased the birth families for all time. A social worker who helped me to locate my birth son in 2005 told me the Mormon adoptees and birth parents were her #1 referrals due to the high degree of difficulty the church makes it for the adoptees to seek out their families - and vice verse.

I learned it first hand. They are draconian, including to brainwashing the adoptive parents to do their bidding (ie, erase the birth family.)

When I found my birth son he had no knowledge of his medical history, his ancestry, ethnicity, familial talents, quirks, temperament or even looks. He'd been treated as a second class citizen in his adoptive family for much of his life.

And yet once I found him his adoptive mother flipped out, forbidding him to have any further contact with me. She was following the Mormon protocol.

She doesn't care what was best for him, just her selfish ends. He became messed up following his mission. Went A-wall, got into drugs and alcohol, and he and her burned their bridges. Until I found him. Now she's threatened him with annihilation if he has anything further to do with us, or she'll disinherit him.

He hasn't been allowed to meet his half-siblings, not just me. She doesn't care, because to her we don't exist.

I loath the Mormon church for the damage they've caused him and my family.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2017 08:18AM by Amyjo.

I think Mormonism approaches marriage backwards. To the church, marriage is the goal and you go about finding someone to marry. But I think the goal is to develop and experience close relationships, perhaps finding a person you want to be with the rest of your life. If you find such a person, then marriage is just one of your options.

The biggest problem with LDS marriage is the highly distorted culture around sexuality. What I learned in TSCC, intentional or not, is that marriage is a license for sex. The #1 reason to get married is because it's the only way you can get laid.

Call me a hippie, but that seems pretty stupid. You have to marry one person for the rest of your life before learning to navigate intimate relationships? You combine that with a sexually repressive environment, and you're asking for trouble. And they get plenty. Making sex into a fetish is a recipe for disaster.

Having said that, I love being married. It's awesome no matter how crazy the DW is. I've had some doosies. It's not who you love, it's how you love. True love is something you give yourself, through a partner.

Religious laws pertaining to sex might have been different if there had been birth control back in the day. I think that is why they push marriage before sex. Still don't know why they push marriage though.

Might be like I said early that it is a way to harness the money of a man.

What I find interesting is the range from terrible to great. My marriage has been both, and survived as a good one. I feel the main reason is we bring up the dissatisfactions and seek to resolve with the overriding theme of mutual respect, reasonable expectations, and the big one... admitting when wrong. This has worked for us over 27 years.