I didn't want to hijack the Female Garment thread...so started a new topic.

CL2 had posted something about being told to marry someone who I presume was admittedly gay. I, and probably others, am genuinely curious:
- Did church leaders really encourage sisters to marry gay priesthood holders? What was the rationale (appearances? or that it would turn them straight?)
- How were you or any female expected to reconcile in your minds that you were marrying someone to "fix" them...and that if it didn't work, you'd be stuck with them for eternity?
- At a young age of 18-21 did church leaders think the females were just too naive to know the difference and repercussions?


The thread was - http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1973230,1973569#msg-1973569

Today we say "Turn them away from the Dark Side".

I know many gay men who married women in the temple while I was at BYU. They were encouraged by Mormon leaders to do so. I heard one of them say just before the ceremony to himself in a whisper, "I know I can do this. I know I can do this . . ."

I was just sick for the girls. They had no idea what they were getting into. They were just trusting the leaders of the one true church like lambs to the slaughter.

The leaders of the one true church were taking the easy way out of a sticky situation. Don't forget these were not trained clergy. These were your dentists and auto insurance reps and mechanics who were following a handbook. Still, I hold them responsible. They would have had to have been brain dead not to know how many of these now married gay men were in trouble for getting some male companionship on the side, and how miserable the women were as they pretended to stoically endure Heavenly Father's will.

CL2 is a prime example of this irresponsible and reprehensible behavior of the Mormons leaders and her story is important. Since these leaders lacked any inspiration, revelation or empathy, they followed the part of a small minded society who maintained it was a mental illness and could be overcome. SWK swore it could be overcome in his malicious book.

These straight Mormon Leaders were cocksure that once these gay guys got a taste of the "real thing" that they would begin craving female flesh as much as they did. Their inspiration was coming from their dicks in other words.

Naive? Sheltered, indoctrinated, Mormon girls didn't have a chance of understanding what they were getting into. Also, they were in love and looking for a way for everything to work out. Innocent victims. Hopeful, trusting. Brainwashed, indoctrinated, innocent victims.

Anyway, that's what I think after having watched so much of it all my life.

One this is pretty sure though. No bishop ever recommended his own daughter marry one of the gay guys.

So they could learn how to decorate better? ;)

"These straight Mormon Leaders were cocksure that once these gay guys got a taste of the "real thing" that they would begin craving female flesh as much as they did. Their inspiration was coming from their dicks in other words." from Done & Done.

I'm getting pretty old these days, but they are still doing this. Ask is it nonsequiter (spelling). He was just told to marry a female in the past few years by, at the very least, his mission president and his bishop. Then there is old Josh Weed and his wife.

Not everyone knew their future husbands were gay. I did. I used to hate the fact I knew. Now I'm glad I did. I have talked to many ex-wives of gays. There is actually a small group that was started by Carol Lynn Pearson's daughter, but they don't really talk much anymore. They do have a group on fb.

I was told that my boyfriend was damned if he didn't change. It wasn't even a matter of just controlling it, he had to CHANGE to straight. I was 25. I wasn't 19. Back then, the only thing most of us knew about someone gay is that they lived in San Francisco. I never thought they were mormons. I was a very devout little mormon girl. I didn't have a lot of mormon guys who asked me out, but I could date any nonmormon I wanted to date. I worked at Thiokol (in Utah) and there were a lot of nonmormons. I felt guilty for dating nonmormons until my extreme TBM neighbor told me it was okay. So, finally, a mormon seemed interested.

We got married for many reasons. One of them was to get the assholes out of our lives. I had been suicidal for 18 months and the bishop told me I must have PMS. Well, I wonder what could have caused my suicidality? I wanted to save him. I did. He saved me, too.

We've been through a lot, but are now best friends and share the home together. A lot of my story is on RfM. I don't have a biography story, though. Most of the time I'm at peace with it all. He needed me. He put me through hell, but we are okay. We have a set of twins who are 31 years old (boy/girl). I'll be 60 in 2 months and he just turned 60. He has a boyfriend. I have a boyfriend who is the first nonmormon I ever dated when I was age 20. My boyfriend and I have been 'together' for 12 years.

This board allowed me to realize who created the hell my life had been--the leaders.

If you ever think the lds church is changing its stance on gays, don't ever believe it. I never have. I got to deal with them all those years ago. I was the sacrificial lamb, as were my children AND MY EX. We all were. I have a cousin who is gay who just got married to a woman for the second time.

P.S. My ex can't decorate if his life depended on it. He is unable to even dress himself in a halfway fashionable manner. BUT he can keep a car running for years and years and years to the point that you'll do anything to get rid of it. He put on the metal roof, he fixes everything around the house. He would prefer to dress from clothes from the DI, but his boyfriends (past and present) and I make sure he is dressed nice. Not perfect, but nice. He "was" a blonde, blue-eyed guy when I met him. Everyone loves him (almost). The women in the neighborhood were thrilled when he left me, especially the ones from the singles ward and the divorcees in the ward. The singles ward girls still want him and invite him to dinner, but he never goes. And if I don't say so myself, I was HOT. He'll even tell you that. His gay friends couldn't figure out how he got me. Not so hot anymore, but I was then. I had to put that in as so many people like to believe that only the women who can't catch a husband will marry someone gay. Nope, he was damn lucky to have me and he knows it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2017 04:43PM by cl2.

Wow CL2! That explains a lot. I can't believe it is still going on....well OK, I can.

I agree, cl2, your story is important and needs to keep being shared.

I have a nephew who married in the temple a few days ago. I'm pretty darn sure he's gay.

I know what you mean. The leaders hope that more children will be produced for their own offspring to feed upon.

One size fits all in mormonism -- and that's size large.

cl2 knew going into her marriage that her guy was gay and she was supposed to save him. Horrible situation she was handed.

Most of us didn't know. I got engaged to my steady boyfriend in college. Weeks before the wedding, he decided he HAD to serve a mission. This was in the 60's when it wasn't as heavy handed on the young men to go. While he was gone, he convinced himself that he could do the marriage to a woman thing. He wanted the family, the church leadership, the standing in the community, and, frankly, he really tried to stuff the gay way down deep. Of course, I knew NOTHING....until it exploded out of him 22 years, four children (and a tenured professorship at BYU) later. We spent a year dissecting our whole history together going back to high school. He told me I saved his life of possibly dying of AIDS.

We were able to mend our relationship after divorce. We both left the church. As he told me since he had first met me, I was always his best friend. Sadly, he ended up dying of AIDS at age 66.

I often wonder if and when I should post on these types of threads. I'm always worried about outing myself.

Anyway, I'm one of the gay guys who married, in the temple no less, to a woman out of fear for my eternal soul. That sounds funny now, but it was no laughing matter for me at the time.

I was born in the church. I grew up as a complete TBM. By High School I had read the BOM, all of the standard words really, several times and was the person who answered all the questions in seminary, and classes. My testimony was strong.

There was a problem though. I knew I was different than those around me. I wasn't interested in girls like the other guys were, I wanted to hang out and have fun with them, but had no interest in dating them. Watching the guys play basketball with their shirts off, now that was interesting.

I knew this was "wrong" or at least that it was considered wrong by the church. I don't know if it was Packer's Little Factory talk or what first clued me in, but I knew not to mention my ... differences... to anyone, so I made sure that I never gave any sign to anyone that I felt the way that I did and hoped that these feelings would go away... It's over twenty years later, they haven't.

So, what was a TBM who was raised by highly conservative parents supposed to do? basically, become extremely depressed, constantly worried that someone would receive revelation that something was wrong with me. As far as I know, no one knew. I played the little believer well. Keep in mind too that this was the 80's/90's and my parents controlled everything I saw, heard and did. I had a very sheltered life. I did not understand the term "gay" to be anything other than a pejorative meaning something like "a weak man". Homosexual wasn't in my vocabulary and I had no idea that in other places people considered my feelings to be "normal" and were fighting for them to be accepted in a wider audience. Ellen hadn't even come out yet. I had little to no understanding of what was happening to me, except that it was "wrong" and that I should keep it hidden. The thought that two men could date, kiss or even have sex never crossed my mind, it was such a foreign idea that it never occurred to me.

The guilt was driving me crazy. I felt like I was lying to my parents, the Bishop (I blatantly lied in interviews for fear of reprisal, I barely knew what masturbation meant, so was terrified of the question) and that, worst of all, I was lying to God. The night before a youth Temple trip, I realized that my Mom was still up (I later realized that she was ironing her temple clothing). I told her that I was scared and needed to ask her about something. I told her that I liked seeing men in their underwear in magazines. It was the closest I could come to saying that I was attracted to guys and not girls. She told me that it was a phase and that I shouldn't worry and that I should go back to bed. It was never mentioned again... Well mom, it's 20+ years later, that "phase" still hasn't passed yet.

I don't really blame my parents, they are a product of their religion. OK, I do blame them somewhat, if they had been more open, maybe things would have been different for me.

So, After high school, there was a year of college. I didn't move out of my parents house, so they still controlled everything and I went to institute, so unfortunately, I didn't get any real chances to explore things... Then it was a mission, during which I had crushes on several of my companions but never, ever hinted anything of the kind.

On coming home, I did move out of the house, but the church had it's claws in me pretty deep by that point. If anyone wonders about the true purpose of Missionary work, it's not the converts, it's to make missionaries reliant on the church for everything. It worked on me, the church was pretty much my life, more than ever before.

What do returned missionaries do? They get married. This was a problem for me. I didn't know if I could do it, but temple marriage is required for the highest level in the celestial kingdom. Also, if I didn't, and I ended up acting on my feelings, I would be condemned for eternity. I was terrified and depressed and didn't know what to do.

The internet was just starting to be a "thing" around that time. I finally learned what "homosexual" was and that I was one, but I remained in denial about it because well, I also learned more about what the church thought about homosexuals and, being a TBM, thought that it had to be true. Part of me was "evil" and I just had to deny that part of me. This was my "trial" and I just had to deal with it. I still had never spoken to anyone about it. That late night "question" to my mom was the closest I had ever come to "coming out". The church taught that "same sex attraction" was a choice, that I had to get over it and one of the best ways was to get married to a woman. Yes, the church was actively teaching that at the time. While I never asked anyone directly, it was out on the internet enough to know all to well what the church thought.

Anyway, there were articles online from people who were like my who did get married, they talked about how great it was, sure there were problems from time to time, but in general, these people made it sound like it worked out for them. They even had kids and it sounded like it worked out well. I was young and naive, so I believed it. I did not, however go searching for a date. It turns out one went searching for me.

My wife to be asked me out on a date. I went, because she seemed nice and I thought it could be fun. We hit it off immediately. We soon became best friends and were inseparable. We had a lot of common interests and similar life goals. We hung out almost every night. Being young mormons, we were engaged in a short period of time and terrifyingly, we were married quickly as well.

For years I struggled with if I had done the right thing or not. We have a happy marriage, we are best friends. It's not perfect, while we have a very close relationship, I'm not physically attracted to her at all. We've made things work. When I left the church I was finally able to come to terms with what happened to me, who I was and what that all meant. I still go through very depressive phases.

All that being said, I wouldn't recommend to anyone who is gay to get married in a straight marriage. I do love my wife and I have never cheated on her, I made this choice and it's one that I can live with. But, it's a choice I shouldn't have had to have made. I wonder all the time how my life could have been if things had been different. I should have been able to be with someone who loved me, for how I am completely. I shouldn't have to hide a portion of who I am, potentially for the rest of my life.

For years, I was horribly depressed, suicidal even, I still do not know how I survived that. The guilt and the pressure from the church was horrendous. And while we've made things work, I'm leaving a lot out in the name of anonymity to explain why things work for us and what we've had to do to make it work. It can be horribly depressing and I can very much relate to the men and women in these relationships who have found themselves unable to go on with life.

I look forward to the day that people are simply accepted for who they are and are no longer judged for who they chose to love and are loved by. Maybe someday that will be the case, I fear that we still have a long way to go.

My ex (and obviously gemini's) were very devout. He did cheat. He cheated a lot. I would have stayed just because. I knew I wouldn't deal well if he left me. I didn't.

But we worked through it, just like gemini and her husband did.

I believe it is criminal what they have done to gays and their families. Your parents could not have known how to handle it either back in the 1980s. We got married in 1984.

We were all "abused." I believe everyone has to make their own choices in this situation. It isn't for me to tell you to leave your wife (I never would) or for your wife to leave you. You guys get to decide. Not anyone else.

Oh, just like you and your wife, gemini and her husband, my ex and I are best friends. He was rather unbearable to live with years ago. He said to me once that when your mind is so messed up because of what you are dealing with, you want your environment to be in control. We get along much better as friends, like we always should have been. Some days I have some regrets. Most days I just don't worry about it anymore.

Of all things, I saw the other guy I was "dating" at the time my ex proposed to me. He finally decided he better marry me or I'd marry this other guy. I have only seen him twice in about 30 years and I saw him the other day. You can't help but wonder what might have been.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2017 09:37PM by cl2.

Speaking from my own experience as a convert in the early 60's: I saw young, very naive LDS girls that thought that getting married in the temple and having children was what they were commanded to do. Many, I'm sure, never suspected their fiance might be gay. (We would have said homosexual in the 50's/60' among the people I knew.) Not a clue. They thought they were loved and doing what they needed to do to follow the commandments of Heavenly Father and raise a righteous family. They had been sealed for time and all eternity in the temple and convinced the Celestial Kingdom after death would be their reward. And as such, even if he might be gay, getting married would cure the sin. Besides, they had children. He couldn't be gay. Also, those were days when many subjects were not openly discussed.
That kind of thinking was what I observed in those times. (Much has changed since!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2017 09:39PM by SusieQ#1.

my boyfriend was gay, I transferred jobs and I sat right by a guy that everyone told me was gay. He was about 20 years older than I am, had children close to my age. I was in such a bad place mentally and emotionally and I certainly didn't want to believe here was another gay guy, but sure enough, he is. He's still my friend. He suffered greatly over cheating on his wife as he had. He was a very sad person and people said he was hard to get to know. He and I became very, very good friends.

He's still around, about 79 years old or older, still married with 5 kids. My ex used to see him at the local areas gays would meet up.

My dad told me that one of my favorite teachers in home economics, that her husband was gay. They stuck it out.

There is a lot of suffering out there over this issue. Oh my, how can I forget, my neighbor was gay. Such a nice, nice man. He's still alive, but doesn't live next door to my parents' house anymore, but his son and his wife do. They help take care of my disabled brother who lives there alone. Anyway, this guy had 7 kids. His wife died 30 years ago. One of their sons is gay and he has been with his partner for a long, long time. My sister dated both he and his partner. We didn't realize what the problem was until after my experience. They both have worked at BYU, but are now retired.

"I should have been able to be with someone who loved me, for how I am completely"

This is what is so sad about this situation. No only should you have been able to live that experience, so should your wife.

Tragic all around.

It was considered good for the MEN, and, in the minds of the LDS leaders, the very definition of the word "good" equated with "what was good for the men." (It did not matter that anything might have been of questionable benefit to women.) There was a chance in the minds of the leaders that marriage to women might have made the gay or on-the-fence men straight. The LDS leaders weren't particularly concerned about what was good for the women and what might have been the outcome had the "marry them and they'll go straight" plan backfired.

Well Im a gay man. After my mission, and during my mission when I first came out, I was counselled to date women and marry a woman. A stake president, my mission president, two bishops and my own father all gave me the same "priesthood advice" Which was to spend more time with girls and eventually choose one.

Well, I laughed at them all because I spend almost all my time with women! I have all sisters and female cousins and grew up with plenty of aunts. In school I befriended the girls very easily.
They all seemed to think girls made me shy. Uh no, I love women Im just not sexually inclined toward them and I can never be romantic towards one. Which is possibly why girls tend to get along with me, I have no ulterior motives. But if we have similar interests we can laugh all day..

They thought maybe I would become straight if I just met the right gal. They didn't know or didn't realize that my only romantic/sexual interest since puberty was always men, only men. And no amount of pushing and prodding would change my predisposition

This was in 2013, so yeah I doubt things have changed regardless of the recent claim mormons don't counsel homosexuals to marry the opposite gender. They do, they simply do it privately and behind closed doors and then they just claim otherwise.

My own patriarchal blessing suggests Ill find a woman to marry. Even God got me wrong apparently. You'd think God would know I was gay. Or at least know not to pretend otherwise.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2017 10:14PM by nonsequiter.

I hoped you'd see this thread.

Like Done & Done said, they thought if gay men just had a chance at having sex with a woman, they'd never go back, AS THESE MEN only thought with their dicks and that is exactly it.

My job was to experiment. My ex was assigned to French kiss me and not tell me. I was told we could experiment as long as we didn't have intercourse and we could go to the temple. I wouldn't. I kept telling the bishop it was wrong and he kept telling me we had to make sure he could be turned on by a woman. It was a royal mind F. I don't know if I should type out the word. I was suicidal or I just wanted to cease to exist. They were going against all I had ever been taught and I was dealing with "was he a monster or was he a good person." I'd hear his voice and know he was a good person.

They really truly think that gays will change if only they can have sex with women because they themselves only think in terms of how they feel about women.

I actually think some leaders are envious of all the sex gays can have without getting a woman pregnant.

What they did to us was horrible. I married my ex to survive, to get those bastards out of my life as they were destroying me.

I was just in Garden City last weekend and I tried to find the address of the first bishop we dealt with over this issue, but I still can't find his address. I was never going to tell him how I felt until his wife started butting into our business two years ago and we've not been in that ward for 33 years. It's like, "What business is it of her's?" I want to tell him. I want him to know what he did to us.

What the actual F is wrong with that bishop and his wife? Just when I think your story can't get any more strange and difficult. I'm so sorry you're still dealing with those people.

It would be nice if the bishop would actually listen to you. However, TBMs don't take responsibility. In their eyes it is always your fault or just part of Heavenly Father's plan for you. TBMs are cowards. And the bishop's wife is a sanctimonious hypocritical gossipy (insert the correct word here--you know what it is) to butt in that way and make it her business.

In the Miracle of Forgiveness in the chapter "Crime Against Nature," SWK assures that we can change from being gay. He says it is " curable and forgivable with effort." So the Bishop's wife is just going to say you didn't put enough effort in. Don't cast your pearls before swine.

To quote SWK: “After consideration of the evil aspects, the ugliness and prevalence of the evil of homosexuality, the glorious thing to remember is that it is curable and forgivable. The Lord has promised that all sins can be forgiven except certain ones enu- merated, and this evil was not among those named. Thus it is forgivable if totally abandoned and if the repentance is sincere and absolute. Certainly it can be overcome, for there are numerous happy people who were once in its clutches and who have since completely transformed their lives.”

I knew by the time I read SWK's words that the supposed “evil of homosexuality” wasn’t curable—not for me, not for anybody. This diatribe on God’s behalf is so full of ignorance I was reading with my jaw on the floor.


SWK goes on: “Therefore, to those who say that this or any other evil is incurable, I respond: how can you say the door can not be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done.”

Well, CL2, you, me, and a lot of other people know what those words mean. I was bruised and bloody from knocking. There was nearly blood streaming out my eyes and ears from the emotional trauma and the bloodcurdling efforts I made. I laid on the floor screaming at times. By the time my father handed me the book I knew what poison it was. But, bishops are still handing it out. Many still believe SWK. I doubt your old bishop and his wife will ever get it. I hope they do. I really hope they do.

I tell people that I did bloody my hands on that door and I knocked that damn door down.

I can actually say that when I found out he is gay I knew deep down that there was no changing him, that he would always be gay. They told me that if he didn't CHANGE, he was damned. I couldn't handle that.

Yes, it always comes back to being my fault. She stopped by my ex's "office" and talked to his workers and tried to get info. She made some statement about cl2 wasn't happy with the amount of alimony. I'm like, "Alimony????" I never asked for any alimony. It wasn't even a topic of conversation EVER, so they've all just made up their stories. Oh, his workers didn't give her any info. I know both of them. Both are NOT mormon. They thought it was horrible. My "ex" said that next time she stops by to tell her the truth. They know everything.

It will always be my fault. All the women think they can still change him. One of the girls who never married from the singles ward even said to someone that "If cl2 would just let him go and get on with her life." I told that person "did you tell her I have a boyfriend?" My boyfriend even says he sees people look at us shocked when we are around town. I tend to not look around.

I knew several young, Gay Mormon men back in the 70's and 80's. The ones who had talked with the local bishop (who was a very nice guy, all in all --- tried to be kind --- but was poisoned by TSCC's virulent stupidity, himself). He told the Gay guys that it was fine to be Gay. They did not need to feel shame. All that they needed to do was to marry a woman and have children. Even if they stayed Gay, they were fine, as long as they never acted on it, stayed married to a woman, and raised their kids to be Mormons.

I also knew a very wonderful young woman who dated one of the Gay guys. She was shattered when she eventually found out that the man with whom she had fallen in love was never going to be able to be with her as fully as she had dreamed. I remember her pain, and then her anger so clearly. It was heartbreaking.

And Mormon leaders still want the same thing --- or else they want the Gays to just live their whole lives as celibate sacrifices to the Mormon church's demands. (And other churches do the same thing. Not all, but far too many. As far as that goes, back in the 70's, well-educated, liberal, university-trained psychologists and psychiatrists were also doing their own version of the same awful stupidity. Telling Gay clients to date women, and that they could learn to be heterosexual with the right therapy. Many have learned what a tragedy that was, but not all.)

Because in tscc women don't matter. The only purpose of women in the church is to serve men and have and raise their children. If a gay man is a priesthood holder, he must be rehabilitated, so get him to marry a woman. The impact on her is irrelevant to the geriatric men in charge. Lesbians, on the other hand, are roundly ignored (because: sentence 1). Probably preferable to the BS that gay men go through.

How can you say that? Everyone knows that Mormon women are on pedestals and so important they don't even need the priesthood because they have the super power of being mothers. Besides, men don't even get to have veils to pull over their faces in the temple like the women. Mormon women get all the good stuff. :)

There is a couple down the street from me (good friends) who just got divorced. The woman married the man to 'fix' him like the scenario above. He went through conversion therapy back in the day. He is finally deciding to live as his true self as a gay man. She is finally able to go find a heterosexual man. Too bad it took 25+ years to come to this conclusion!

My childhood friend got married in the temple when she was only 18. It's been 20 years and they are still married, but I am almost positive (without having any proof) that her husband is gay. I don't see them very often, but every time I do I think it's so obvious! How does nobody know?!?!? Or maybe they do and it's a big secret. It makes me wonder if it was known back then and they were counseled to marry each other to fix him...just like many of the stories here. I might never know.

According to the 2007 manual "God Loveth His Children" (an ironic title considering the content), "In some circumstances a person defers marriage because he or she is not presently attracted to a member of the opposite gender. While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life. However, the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life. As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children."

You can still find the manual online listed under Melchezidek Priesthood administrative materials and Relief Society administrative materials. Terrible. I'm so glad I left the church at the same time I came out as a lesbian.

The (morMon) "church" doesn't care about the people. No.

It's about IT'S OWN appearances... and the WAVES of tithing [it surfs on].

M@t