Billy Graham's daughter Anne says trans people in bathrooms are making God send terrorist attacks:


http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/13/pastor-anne-graham-god-let-911-happen-because-of-transgender-people-in-bathrooms/

"During her appearance on right-wing pundit Steve Deace’s radio show, she claimed that God abandoned us because of transgender rights. Later she told Deace that the US is under the judgment of God in part because “we embrace of the theory of evolution,” which started “this downward spiral away from God.”

Lotz said: “What I see in the nation of America right now, just the chaos on every level.”

“There is silliness, there is craziness, there’s the most illogical rulings. The one in North Carolina on HB2, which is to protect our children in bathrooms and locker rooms, has become something where the justice department is suing us for something that’s just common sense.”

“To me, it’s evidence that God has backed away.”

She continued to say that she believes that God allowed these terror attacks and that if people repent and pray that God would protect them.

“In our nation, one of the things we pray for is that some of this craziness would settle down… [but] our nation seems to be shaking its fist in God’s face, we’re abandoning God as a nation.”

“What happens then is God abandons us and backs away, he takes his favor and blessing away from us.”

“[If we repent] I think he would begin to reveal the plots of terrorists before they are carried out, even the weather patterns he can control and protect us from violent storms.”

“I think that’s why God allows bad things to happen. I think that’d be why he would allow 9/11 to happen, or the dreadful attack in San Bernardino. To show us we need him.”

Now I’m no expert on religion, but I would think a higher power would be angrier about conservatives crapping on poor people, encouraging unjust wars, and worshipping money."

You can listen to her rants here:

http://www.liberalmountain.com/us-news/pastor-bill-grahams-daughter-says-god-allows-terror-attacks-because-of-transgenders-details

and gays cause hurricanes.

I wonder how he feels about how his children turned out.

So fundamentalist. So judgemental.

Isaiah 55:8 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways saith the Lord..." (KJV).

Why do people think they can speak for God? Sure, we can try and interpret scripture and often miss the mark on that as well as disagreeing with each other about our ideas in many areas. But it's fairly clear that the Bible says (to its adherents) to avoid judging each other and that God's ways are different from ours. Loosely, I take that to mean that we don't know what's up. Especially in someone else's life. And when it comes to God's plan - or whatever you want to call the unfolding of life.

I have rarely heard anything that sounds so ridiculous as marrying up terrorists and bathrooms. Making God to be as pitifully and particularly picayune as some of his purported followers.

What happened to the concept that we are all made in God's image? Where does it say that only applies to a narrow group of humans who think they have the inside scoop on the mind of God?

The inexcusable, offensive, judgemental, traumatic and just plain wrong prejudice against LGBTQ people is among the top five reasons I can't fit into the Christian mould that has been presented to me (true enough, I haven't tried all denoms or groups but I sure have looked into a lot of them).

Of all the named sins in the scriptures, why, why, why do so many Christians hyper-focus on the homosexuality/gender issues? I just do not get it. Mote meet beam. Gnat meet camel. Judgementalism meet love.

Love. One. Another.

One of the two greatest commandments.

For something so simple, all too many believers make it overly complicated.

And wrong.

Hate speech meet these obsessed bathroom monitors.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2017 07:07PM by Nightingale.

if I were a believer, I would tend to feel that people like her spouting such ridiculous notions, hatred, and bigotry, and ignorance may be closer to the reason that, as she says, "he takes his favor and blessing away from us". What crap! I agree with what Nightingale posted :)

cinda: You reminded me I also wanted to say that it implies, at least, that the intolerant one is setting themselves up as better than. Better than those they judge.

Which scripture says *that's* OK?

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cinda: You reminded me I also wanted to say that
> it implies, at least, that the intolerant one is
> setting themselves up as better than. Better than
> those they judge.
>
> Which scripture says *that's* OK?


Luke 18:7
"Now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?"

Hi hie. I don't get how that scripture says humans are the judges?

Believers think they're the "elect."
And that if they cry to god, he'll get justice for them -- against the people they despise (that they've judged to be despicable).

hie: I've never heard that interpretation before. Please see my reply below on this.

The scripture that stands out to me is "Judge not...".

So that is how I go about things. Partly that's my natural approach anyway but the scripture back-up, for me, works well.

As for being the elect etc, again, I'm not familiar with that particular interpretation.

I'd disagree about holding every denomination or every Christian even to one absolute interpretation. That is what I used to look for when I first started going to church. It made sense to me that there should be only one set of doctrines, to be interpreted in a specific and uniform manner.

That is what got me into all the trouble of bouncing around so many denoms.

It has taken me a long time to come to understand, and even longer to accept, that even within denoms the adherents are not held to one tight interpretation. Many scriptures are not read as absolute or literal.

That is my experience anyway. And yes, it took me a long time to get used to that.

In the more fundamentalist approach (and I include Mormonism here, again in my experience) the concepts are this way or that way and mostly black/white, no shading.

I think that way of looking at things is hard to shake (in many things, not just scriptural interpretation) and I see it here with many exmos. Unconsciously many still hold onto Mormon ideas and approaches, especially when it comes to ideas about what people of other faiths believe.

That is not a criticism, just an observation. I include myself in the crowd who has subconscious leftovers from previous religious ideas.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The scripture that stands out to me is "Judge
> not...".

No wonder it 'stands out to (you)'! You've made yourself judge, jury, executioner.

> So that is how I go about things. Partly that's my
> natural approach anyway but the scripture back-up,
> for me, works well.

Of course, it 'works well' because you fancy yourself correct and superior. And you can't be bothered to familiarize yourself with an 'interpretation' of scripture which differs from Nightingale Natural. Why even care? You have it all figured out.

Away we go:

"Why do people think they can speak for God?"

Why do you judge them for their thinking? Why do you judge speaking for God? You do it, so you have much in common.

"But it's fairly clear that the Bible says (to its adherents) to avoid judging each other"

So what do you care to judge those who are not 'adherents' (whatever that means)? How is it you judge who is an 'adherent' to the Bible?

"we don't know what's up. Especially in someone else's life."

Really? You judge that 'we' don't know what's up? How do you know? Especially as you presume to judge other's lives as we see throughout your posts.

I have no such fantasies that I don't judge, btw. But since you say you are a natural at refraining from judging (except when you judge), let's continue:

"I have rarely heard anything that sounds so ridiculous"

What?? You're judging something as 'ridiculous'?? How can you know to judge that? What happened to Nightingale Natural who lives and lets live?

"Making God to be as pitifully and particularly picayune as some of his purported followers."

Whoa. I hope these people, whom you judge as simply lip service 'followers' and as pitiful don't meet you in person! Judge, jury, executioner. And now you decide who is a true follower of God - good judgement.

"Where does it say that only applies to a narrow group of humans who think they have the inside scoop on the mind of God?"

Well, I learned that from you! You are qualified to judge the mind of God as you've already told us who is a 'purported follower', what is 'ridiculous' from them, and how they wrongly assign to God traits such as 'pitiful'.

"The inexcusable, offensive, judgemental, traumatic and just plain wrong prejudice"

Wow. So you know to judge others' beliefs as 'inexcusable'? You can judge another's beliefs as 'traumatic'? To whom?

Further, you can call another's scripture supported beliefs, 'wrong'? WRONG? You judge another as WRONG?

"For something so simple, all too many believers make it overly complicated."

Like you? Because hypocrisy complicates things.

"And wrong."

Here we go again. Pot meet kettle. Judging others as 'wrong'.

"Judgementalism meet love."

Sounds like an opportunity for you. You've got the first part down pat. Wonder if you'll ever arrive at love? Course, it's the 'love' by your definition so probably not at all what could be experienced as loving by those you call, 'wrong', ridiculous', etc, etc.

It doesn't matter what you believe. Your language demonstrates in spades that you are judgmental, the same thing you decry in others.

For all your visits to 'denoms', you seem very unfamiliar with the canon of scripture. That might help you to understand how to live consistently with what you say you value.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2017 12:02AM by carameldreams.

I probably would have taken a different approach than the above, but...a valid point was made.

The Jesus stories have him doing the same thing...telling you not to judge in one place (which may not really be the case anyway, see below*), then calling people snakes, a "brood of vipers," and more. Now, you might argue that he's "god incarnate," and allowed to judge, but what kind of example is it to say "don't judge," then turn around and do just what you said not to do?

* the verse(s) in question is:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Of course "interpretation" varies...
But it seems like Jesus isn't saying "don't judge."
He's saying that however you judge others, the same standard will be used to judge you.
Which is kinda the point of the post above :)

hie, re judging:

Yes. I would say the explanation within Christianity *is* that Jesus is God. God who is Judge.

So he is telling humans not to judge. But he gets to judge as he's the one who makes up the rules. :)

The point about calling people vipers is that he can see their heart and so his judgement is different from the way humans judge each other (often in error).

And yes, he is saying don't do it but knows we will so he also says the way you judge others is the same way that will be used in judging you. IOW (the way I take it, and yeah, fair disclosure, I (obviously) do not have a formal Master's degree in worldwide theology) as ye sow, so shall ye reap. Or something like that.

What I forgot to say in my replies below is that yet again I see how some (many) Christians seem to get so very angry and judgemental when it comes to LGBTQ folks and issues. Yet again, let me say how much I DO NOT UNDERSTAND the zealotry that accompanies their fixation on this. There are a lot of other "sins" listed in the canon, to be sure. Why not give equal time to denouncing all of them with the same zeal?

In my experience (again, I keep having to say that) if one is not 100% in lockstep with the supposed scriptural injunctions on that anger erupts and judgement pronounced. End of story.

I have often thought of finding a more mainstream 'mainstream' denomination.

But then I think nah. Had enough. Thankyouverymuch.

A few points:

I said: "I have rarely heard anything that sounds so ridiculous..."

Note I said "anything". As in an idea. I did not call people ridiculous, as you indicate.

I don't understand your judgement of me as "executioner".

You seem to query the meaning of the term "adherents". It simply refers to "a supporter of a cause", "a member of a group". That is how I used the word and what I meant by it - a neutral reference. Where do I "judge" who is an adherent. All it means is what I said above, a member or supporter of a group, any group. If you belong to a group you are an adherent. There is no judgement there or criticism.

As for "purported followers", again, there is no judgement there. Actually, I was just using a different word ("followers") to avoid saying "adherents" again. The "purported" part, admittedly, is likely obscure. What I was thinking when I wrote that was that some may disagree that people with certain ideas are "followers", depending on one's interpretation of the designation "followers". IOW, I guess, I meant that some would consider others to be in error; therefore, not true followers. That is based on my own experience of not being considered a proper member if not baptized or being somehow suspect if not accepting every single teaching in a certain way.

You say: "You judge another as WRONG?" The excerpt from my post that you reference here was directed at an idea, not a person (you refer to "another"; I was speaking about the attitude). I get to say that I disagree with an idea (in this case prejudice) and that is neutral in regards to a person who has that attitude (I think the context is clear in my post. If not, I regret that).

I didn't say anything about "lip service followers".

Re your remark about me "judging something as traumatic", I was thinking of the topic in the opening post and the people who are traumatized by being spurned and shunned and worse due to a biological fact in their lives that makes them different (trans) and/or people who are LGB. I am not "judging" that they are traumatized. I have only to read about their challenging experiences to know that how they are treated in society causes trauma.

Fancying myself as "correct and superior" actually makes me laugh. It's too bad if that is how I have come across to you but I'm not going to apologize for it, or feel bad about it, because it's not intended and I know that I am actually the opposite of that. And it's not just myself who assesses that to be true.

You say "you can call another's scripture supported beliefs, 'wrong'? WRONG? You judge another as WRONG?"

Again, the intent (which I think is fairly clear) is that the idea/interpretation is wrong, in my view, and YES, it is a valid position to have a difference of opinion.

You say: "...they wrongly assign to God traits such as 'pitiful'." I think you have misunderstood me here. I did not say this. My meaning is likely more clear if you consider the entire sentence or even paragraph.

You come across as antagonistic. I am not "judging" that that is the case, just stating how it feels. Whether you intended it that way I don't know. I couldn't understand it at first as there are many discussions here about religion, obviously, and they can very often be conducted without personal animosity.

But after going through your comments piecemeal like this, I get it now. (Duh. These things take me a while). You refer to "the canon of scripture" and "scripture supported beliefs".

So, putting on my Sherlock deerstalker I'm concluding you are a religious person, likely Christian - not that I want to make bad assumptions or put words in your mouth. But going on that premise, let me say that your post is so very reminiscent to me of oh-so-many "denoms" I have attended (or more accurately, the people, not the denominations themselves) where hostility seems the go-to position towards anyone who doesn't immediately fall into line, whatever the particular line may be. The most obvious first example, of course, is the Mormon Church where questions are severely discouraged and it seems a person is immediately suspect for the mere fact of having a question to ask, and asking it.

But, weirdly, I have experienced the exact same phenomenon, tone, feeling, in other Christian churches that also seem to be suspicious of anyone with a question to ask. Maybe not at first, when they are describing their beliefs. But deeper questions, yeah, not so popular. Again, I repeat ad infinitum at RfM, IN MY EXPERIENCE.

That has been one of the most abiding experiences I have had in whichever denomination I have visited. I have yet to actually understand it. I have concluded, rightly or wrongly, that it must be easier to be in and stay if one is born to it than it is for a non-churched person to come to believe and join and fit in as an adult. Unless one wants to suspend disbelief (as you do when reading a novel or watching a movie, for instance). If seeming contradiction niggles at you or if you just like doctrinal analysis and like to understand stuff with no criticism or harm intended, that would seem to be a problem in a lot of instances.

It seems to also bug you that I shorten 'denomination' to 'denom'. Again, it's just a way for me to try and avoid repeating the same words over and/or to shorten up a bit (always a challenge when discussing religion).

So, anyway, thanks (NOT) for reminding me of the thing I have disliked the most about church, all churches in my life to date. The tone, the anger, the - yes - judgement regarding asking questions, not immediately toeing the line, not buying in 100% right away. I won't bother explaining that in depth as, again in my experience, it seems hard for religious people to understand from outsiders.

And the other thing I've never understood, and may never, is why believers feel they have to get so righteously indignant on God's behalf.

It's hard to feel the love.

If you think this is also too judgemental, you know what? For once, I. Just. Do. Not. Care.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2017 09:59PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Which scripture says *that's* OK?

Many. Are you genuinely unfamiliar with the canonized text? I can't imagine you need a citation list?

It may be a case of how it is read/interpreted.

As is the case most of the time.

Which creates so much of the difficulty.

I said" it implies, at least, that the intolerant one is setting themselves up as better than. Better than
those they judge.

> "Which scripture says *that's* OK?"

carameldreams replies:

"Many. Are you genuinely unfamiliar with the canonized text? I can't imagine you need a citation list?"

Many scriptures say it's OK to feel that one is better than others and to judge them?

If some Christians seriously think this, that would explain everything.

Absolutely everything.

She hates America and its' freedom as much as the terrorists hate America. Trans people didn't carry out the attacks of 9/11. Religious fundamentalists just like herself carried out the attack. I think her rhetoric is far more dangerous than a trans person just trying to get through their day without being physically attacked.

This is the kind of obnoxious shit Pat Robertson says all the time. "9/11 happened cause of gay's" etc. It gets old.

It's funny, because while I'm not really a Billy Graham fan, he is much more compassionate than his daughter is, at least that's what it sounds like. I'm sure he is no fan of transgendered people or homosexuality and I'm sure he's extremely conservative, but my understanding is that he in general preaches a "love one another" type of philosophy.


There are much worse evangelists than Billy Graham. I don't know if that's saying much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2017 09:16PM by midwestanon.

Fundie evangelical christian god is funny. Maybe 3-4 times a century, he smiteth the heathen in California with a mighty quake, which sends the faithful into paroxysms of righteous joy; the wicked are earning their just reward.

But he does his best work among his own bible-believin' flock. Each and every year, he sends his tornadoes into god-fearing Oklahoma, sowing death and destruction in their wake. Divine punishment? Of course not, for they belieeeeve in Je-sus-ah; god's ways are mysterious, praise his holy name-ah.

And he slams his hurricanes every year into the coastal South, the Gulf States and the Atlantic coast. Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, the Carolinas, the object of God's wrath? Never! The bah-ble is the inerrant word of god-ah!

And he sends plagues of obesity and diabetes onto those same southern states, showing that true believers will accept just about anything from their sweet god.

So the fundies wait for their rapture, and wait, and wait, all the while looking for a disaster to strike the godless Left Coast, to convince themselves of god's justice and make themselves feel better.


[This post is meant to be read as an exercise in sarcasm, in case it's not immediately clear.]

Someone very dear to me is a trans-person, and when I first realized it, I found the concept shocking. But this was a person I was already very fond of, and I had to make the choice: is the closeness between us REALLY worth giving up, just because of a gender issue?

It took me a while to be comfortable with it, but now I can be around trans-people who obviously aren't passing well, and not get uptight about it.

As long as there are stalls in the restrooms, I don't care if a trans-woman uses the restroom when I do.

BIlly Graham was a decent sort although I don't believe in his religion but his kids have gone batshit crazy.

So I've been gay my entire life. Just didn't realize what it was at first. (I was raised in the Mormon bubble).
I guess all this shit is my fault. LOL
How can this woman not realize she is doing exactly what she is preaching against? Every day it becomes more clear to me that
it's true, "You can't fix stupid".

Yep, God was on America's side during the genocide against the
Native Americans. And he loved us during those centuries of
slavery. But, treating transgender people decently is just too
much for Him.