I no longer believe in the church, so what does that leave me? I spent too long making arguments against any other Christian church to find them believable. Once again, what does that leave me? Has anyone else made the jump from Mormon to some other religion? Perhaps you can explain.

life is a bitch once that critical thinking gene kicks in.

That is one of the best observations I've ever read about "...their creeds are abominations."

How can TBM's complain that exmo's might become atheists when they themselves claim that only Joseph Smith had the God-given right to pull the sword from the stone...


Side note: the anti-spam code for this post was appropriately "WTF"--and the last two digits were "4F".....

Exactly right. I spent my entire life learning that all other religions are false, and why they are false. On the day you discover that this church is also a fake, it doesn't really leave much to fall back on.

That's what happened to me too. When I left the LDS Church, there was nowhere to go.

Mormonism.

Creating atheists since 1821.

What Mormonism did was to fuck up your concept of church. Mormonism taught you that the corporate structure of Mormonism was revealed from on high, and it's the only acceptable Christian organization. Mormonism loves pointing out other organizations' imperfections and historical low points while denying its own.

The Greek word, Ekklesia, basically means--a gathering of people. People sin, churches sin because they are human. Wherever there are people, there are going to be mistakes, imperfections, and stupidity.

If you do not believe in a religious system, such as Christianity, reject Christianity. However, if you do believe, don't let the Mormon enculturated "other churches are untrue" stand in the way of finding a group that of people that you like.

I've posted these before, but maybe it's time again. If you visit another church ask these questions--

1. Are all people welcome here?
2. Are all people invited to fully participate in the life of this church--including participating in Communion?
3. What role do women play in this church?
4. How will my gay family and friends be welcomed here?
5. Tell me about your church finances?
6. Please give me examples of how and when your church has made mistakes--how we're those mistakes addressed?

Now, try to answer these from a Mormon perspective and then tell me how the Mormon church is "true."

Big hugs, The Boner.

Thanks for the list. I have difficulty at this point with Christianity because it is at it's heart very exclusive. It started as a branch of the Jewish faith, which is also exclusive. Why does God have chosen people? Why even bother creating all the other people if they didn't matter? why does the Bible seem to emphasize authority?

There is a lot. I spent two years on a mission arguing many of these points with people of other Christian faiths. They were logical arguments that made sense based on what was provided in the Bible.

I think I am pretty much left without religion. This church destroys religion.

If you think Christianity is exclusive, then it's because you don't understand it.

One of the first edicts, if you will, was to go into all nations and spread the word to ALL mankind. One of the earliest disagreements, documented right in the Bible, was whether to restrict Christianity to Jews alone, and Jesus' disciples decided that everyone was welcome. God only has "chosen" people because He chooses ALL people.

The Bible isn't all about authority. Jesus routinely went against authority. He rejected the Pharises and others. He hung around with what were then the dregs of society, including women and children (whom he defended and included).

I'm gonna respectfully suggest you not base your opinions or decisions on what we'll-meaning but misinformed people have told you (Mormons, and others). Mo-ism definitely F's up people's understanding of Jesus and His teachings. Nobody has a right to stand in between you and God, regardless of their fancy titles, funny clothes, etc. Nobody!

The essence of Christianity is in the New Testament. Read it yourself to understand it.

Good call. I have not read it in quite some time, and not since waking up from Mormonism. I don't even know if I am supposed to pray to Jesus, or if he is the same as the father. I am starting from scratch here. Unfortunately I will not have much of an opportunity to check out different churches, as the only ones here I am not allowed to attend. I was told (by TSCC) that foreighners are forbidden to attend church with locals here in China. Maybe that was exclusive to the LDS church, I will have to learn more.

You don't necessarily have to go to church to know Christ (and in answer to the question below, Christians believe God and Christ to be one, so you can pray to either or both). You'll find Him in the New Testament. Perhaps you can find a mature Christian or Pastor to help you find the way, or some online resources. Meeting with other Christians is good (fellowshipping), but not required to learn. I'll be praying for you, and hope you find the peace and answers that you're looking for.

Oops, question above

I'm with Boner on this one. The Mormon Church sets us up with the wrong parameters for evaluating a church.

I guess this has become one of my pet peeves here, but I'll say it again. If we come out of the LDS Church thinking that we can find a church that is as "true," "inspired," and possessing of "authority" as the LDS Church was supposed to be then we are setting ourselves up for disappointment or another trip on the cult merry-go-round.

It's much more important to concentrate on whether you are in a healthy environment.

Yes, various expressions of Christianity have been exclusive. That is clear from the history, but not everyone attending churches today thinks that was a good thing.

But as a member of many churches you don't have to adopt that claim of exclusive truth or authority in order to belong. Most people at the church I attend would find exclusivity claims like that rather repugnant. We're much more interested in preserving and expanding the scope of our tradition's understanding and acceptance. We invite, but do not seek to convert.

Put more bluntly--if you are a Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan or atheist I don't believe you are going to hell or need saving from hellfire.

If one looks at religion as an evolving journey like other aspects of human existence rather than a set of non-voidable truths that were revealed in the beginning and must be adhered to no matter what, then it can be an enriching part of one's life. It's all in how one approaches it.

The first thing you realize is that all religions are false.

The second thing you realize is that it doesn't matter. I mean it kind of does if people do awful things for religious reasons, but they would have done awful things anyway.

Yes, why would you join another religion? Maybe God put you in Mormonism to cure you of religion for good.

With Mormonism, you get a bonus. You learn that widely revered leaders are not only not infallible (and unquestionable), but that they're often downright ignorant.

From my perspective the idea of a "one true church" is a strawman created by groups like the Mormon church. It is not an idea that really has any impact with Christian churches I am familiar with. The particular church I attend makes no claim to being "the only true church" but as is pointed out above believes in a universal church of believers made up of the faithful from all Christian denominations and not in one institutional entity.

Well the cult does have many organizational elements of the original church. That's the hook. Problem is that the cult is man made based on lies, greed, sex, lust for power and promoting a family business.

Well then, hats off to Joseph for making all of his dad's freakiest dreams come true.

There are over 7 billion true religions on Earth. More if cats could speak. I think you won't go wrong by following your heart. What are you going to trust, your mind?

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you won't go wrong by following your heart.
> What are you going to trust, your mind?

With all respect... Yes.

Want to share what those elements are?

I'd be careful about asking what's in your hot dog.

My focus is on having a direct relationship with the Lord without the cult as a middleman controlling what blessings I can access. In the cult, I was miserable. When I left and dealt with my anger, happiness surfaced. While I listen to TV evangelicals for their take on the Bible, I control the remote and can change the channel when their BS levels rise.

To answer your question... YES. You can find happiness in another church... however, stay away from organized religions (Catholic, Jehovah Witnesses) that seem to be self serving.

A good church talks about Jesus, not about themselves, their leaders, history, and such. The focus should always be on Christ.

I didn't join another religion, I joined another church.

Yes, the LDS church does teach that there are only two churches... the only correct church on the face of the planet (themselves), and the church of the devil (all other churches).

I can see your pain.

You can find happiness in other churches... just start going to them.

Attend as a visitor... hop around... learn... make new friends.

It's scary I know... but it is also fun, and there is nothing to be afraid of.

Oh.. and ignore the atheists... I did. They want you to be just like them... in fact, they want all posters to be just like them. Atheism is just another... religion.

I would love to attend some other churches, but I am currently living in China. There are some Christian churches around, I even heard them singing this morning as I was walking out to go to work. I guess they have rented a little store front for their church. I guess communism hasn't gotten rid of all of them. The only trouble is that I do t think I am allowed to attend their services as a foreigner (against the law).

The Mormon claim of "no true Christian" (except mormons):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

It's cult slight-of-hand to try to hide the ecscape hatches.

I found a place in Buddhism. I don't approach it as a religion, rather as a philosophy on life and a way to approach life.
There are plenty of "schools" of Buddhism that are "religions", but there are also some that aren't. I think I'm a better person because of it.

I have been attracted to Buddhism as well. There are temples here and there in this city. I have visited some, but they seem to be more along the lines of tourist attractions and places people go for luck. It is one of the few religions that doesn't seem to be exclusive. By that I mean they do not condemn anyone for not bein Buddhist.

I'm Christian, no particular affiliation

They did that for me in the 60s.

Once upon a time the priesthood lessons had teeth to them. There was priesthood manual on Ecclesiastical History, anither on the Great Apostasy and others of the same type.

We learned the history of other churches, how they were founded and where the splintered from.

The point was to use others churches being wrong to prove LDS right.

They used (gasp) secular references and often took quores from the different churches own published material.

Then came correlation and mind washing and dumbing things down.

Many of the our more experienced ladies may remember the "out if the best books" series from relief society.

I remember one of my brother visiting the Institute of Religion across from his Junior College, coming home and saying: "They had a class where they taught us about other religions, and then taught us about what was wrong with them."

He was amused.

Once I realized Mormonism was a crock, I realized their views about other religions were probably a crock too.

So, I wiped the slate clean and started from scratch reading the Bible, with the assumption the truth of it would be apparent.

I started visiting a few Christian congregations.

But, once I gained critical thinking skills adequate enough to see through Mormonism, it was impossible not to apply it to other areas of my life.

I was pretty disappointed to read the Bible as a thinking adult and see exactly what it actually said. I spent a considerable amount of time studying the origins of Christianity and how the Bible was written.

I found some of the Christian churches were socially attractive. However, they all basically said all kinds of ridiculous things as if they knew exactly what spin Jesus would put on any topic.
It was malarkey, and not because of anything Mormons did or taught.

Keep reading everything you can.

Check out Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. This short classic is everywhere (online, libraries). It discusses problems in the Bible. This confirmed that I was not the only one who saw major issues with the Bible.

Then I went on a quest to explore other religions. This led ultimately to a study of world mythology.

Read Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. That was the wake up call for me about how to assess claims and standards of evidence. Religion is not exempt from scrutiny.

I had a hard time turning off scientific thinking when I picked up a church book or entered a church. Faith and opinion are not the same as sound verification of facts.

If religions are not true, then it is not logical to desire to find a new one.

In Salt Lake City the Unitarian-Universalists consider LDS their
"farm team."

I think that most ex-Mormons who find another church find it in Unitarianism, the polar opposite of Mormonism. Everyone is welcome, you can profess whatever you want (Christianity, Buddhism, etc.), there are no special books to read or to quote, no points to argue, no dogmatic teachings, everything is transparent, and the only "doctrine"--such as it is--fits on a 3X5 card. They are high on ethical behavior, and have a well-trained clergy. So for a sense of community, fun, and progressive-minded friends, Unitarian Universalism may be for many here.

I love the UU in salt lake. Such good people.

I am not sure they have anything in my city.

It leaves you in a very good place.
The place where you eschew "belief," and start dealing in facts and evidence.

What that means to you is, of course, up to you.
It could mean not joining any religion ('cause none have facts or evidence to back up their claims).
It could mean being a part of some religious group that emphasizes service and community rather than blind "belief" (there are such groups, though too damn few of 'em).
It could mean something else.

Up to you to decide.

Isn't it interesting, though, how the same methods of "proof" (though they really weren't proofs, just arguments) that LDS,Inc. used to convince you that other churches weren't "true" also lead to the conclusion that LDS,Inc. isn't "true?"
How about that.

Just FYI, it's really not hard to find groups of good, honest, kind people to be a part of without the group having to be a religion. Not hard at all. And if it's hard in your area, *start such a group.* There are almost certainly others who'd like to be part of one. :)

In my experience, people can go from one religion to a second, but they never convert to a third.
When you find out that both can't be right, you realize that both could be wrong.

that was pretty good, well put

I think there are many religions who claim to be the only "true" one, including several Christian denominations, including the Pentecostals and the Assembly of God people, along with several others. For instance, you may have heard the old joke where a newcomer to heaven is being shown around by St. Peter, and when they get near a huge, elaborately-carved door, St. Peter whispers, "Now we have to take off our shoes and not make any noise when we go by this door." The newcomer, taking off his shoes, says "Why is that?" "This is where the Baptists are," explains St. Peter. "They think they're the only ones here, and we just enjoy humoring them."

There are Christian churches who believe/teach that unless you declare Jesus Christ to be your personal lord and savior, you are doomed to Hell. There are others who say that no, you don't have to declare that, but you must believe in the *teachings of Jesus,* and try to do those things, love thy neighbor, feed the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc., and THAT is what God wants, and if you do that, you're in.

Then there are the cults--JWs, Scientologists, Mormons, Moonies, etc...all of whom teach that THEIR way is the ONLY true way.

Then there are the Buddhists, who don't try to convert anybody, and welcome all. I think the Bahai's (spelling wrong, but I don't know how to fix it) are also very inclusive. They're cool. The Quakers (Friends) are also very welcoming and inclusive. So are the U-Us. I know about them the most because I am one (an atheist UU). We don't try to convert anybody, and we welcome all. In my own UU congregation, there is a Hindu family, a Wiccan lady, a Jewish family, a straight couple who have adopted six foster children of different races to become a mixed-race family of 8, several gays and lesbians, several transgender people (including two of my grandchildren), a Buddhist, some liberal Christians, plus a lot of humanists, agnostics, and atheists. None of us try to change or convert anybody else. We even had a young Mormon woman who had left the church after being born and baptized in it. Her husband was still LDS--and they were here so he could finish his PhD at the local university, and when he finished his degree, he got a job in surprise, surprise--SLC, and they moved back there. I try to keep in touch with her on Facebook, first because I like her very much, and secondly, because I will be interested to see if she can convince her hubby to join her in becoming an EX-Mormon. They have 2 small children, and as both their families are in SLC, I think she will have a very tough row to hoe. This makes me wonder if their marriage can last. She is very strong and very intelligent and even though she will now be up against not only her husband, but both families, I don't think she will go back to TSCC.

Tao works for me...All organized religions are cults.

I was able to go back to where I began. I NEVER believed the Mo doctrine that it was "the ONE true church". I do not claim the church I attend is perfect, but it beats TSCC hands down.

As I learned the LDS attacks on the other churches to be utterly false, I knew that it was TSCC that was the worst offender. As a minor example is the claim by TSCC that it is the ONLY church which can show the succession all the way back. Of course the RC and other churches DO have the doctrine of apostolic succession! TSCC is rare in that it is the worst offender in creating NEW scripture out of whole cloth! This includes not only the BoM and the BoA, the PoGP, the DandC but even the JS phony translation of the Bible! As for the "endowments" going back to Adam it is so utterly absurd as to be comic. The doctrine of temple garments going back is also absurd.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2017 06:38PM by rhgc.

Before I became LDS, I attended and studied numerous faiths and always found something lacking, or something I felt uncomfortable with. When I discovered Mormonism, I couldn't find anything lacking, and I felt it was the right course for me. If I were to leave, I wouldn't be able to find anything that would satisfy my deepest spiritual needs. I have many friends in other faiths, but as much as I love them I don't think I could join them in their membership.

So the Mormon church satisfies your deepest spiritual needs even though you know that it isn't true?

Interesting.

I believe my parents are the same. They are somehow able to adapt the church and themselves enough to make it work for them.

Their core beliefs hinge on being children of God and feeling God's love.

As for me, I feel that without the church and for all people. Perhaps that is why truthiness of the church and its claims matter, because it cannot provide anything good to me that I cannot otherwise find, thus the deficits and pluses and therefore net benefit matter.

There's no infinite benefit in the church, for me, and infinite benefit is the really the only thing that might possibly justify total cognitive dissonance.

I'm so relieved to not be living that way. Thinking is joyful for me.

It didn't even prove it was true. Didn't even try. Just kept saying it was. It never could prove anything. No way it could prove other's false.

The way I see it, many but not all churches are true. The mormon church fits in to the not-true category. I used to believe in three kinds of churches. The mormon church was at the top as the only true church. Below that, there were churches with men and women who were just doing their best to make the world a better place. Below that, there were cults. When I resigned from the mormon church, I erased that top level all-together and moved the mormon church down in to the cults category. So now, we only have churches with people who try to make the world a better place (with no special knowledge or special authority), and then cults. The mormons, the scientologists, and a lot of denominations with messed up and/or controlling beliefs are cults. To the degree that other churches are honest (and admit to what they don't know) and do their best to make the world a better place, those are the true churches.

I think that to evaluate all churches but the Mormon Church as being "false," one first has to accept as valid the premises claimed by the Mormon Church to be essential in determining what is a "true" Church.

One of the Mormons' major premises, I think, is that Jesus Christ set up the one Christian Church during his lifetime, with such things as priesthood authority, all sorts of specific church officers, etc., etc. And that any organization claiming to be "Church" that does not have exactly this structure that Jesus set up is a false claimant to the title of "Church."

There are contemporary scholars of the New Testament and early Christianity who would argue that this is a false premise about early Christianity. They would say that the historical Jesus did not set up that kind of "Christian Church," and that early Christianity had a lot of theological variety and varied organizational structures.

Only Mormons seem to have this concept of "the one true church". Apart from Catholics, other Christians might choose any variety of churches to attend, based on whether they like the pastor, the building, or the congregation. The little doctrinal differences don't mean that much to most of them.

The real problem is they suckered you into believing their arguments had merit.

What "nonny mouse" has said is only partially true. Christians can, indeed select any church they like and yes, I'm sure some do use the criteria you mention. However, no one who takes the Bible serious would use such criteria for choosing a church but rather, which congregation adheres most closely to the Word of God. Indeed, "little doctrinal differences don't mean that much" but the major ones most certainly do.

My comment is based on anecdotes I've heard from friends, co-workers, and church-goers in the time I've lived away from Utah, while attending a 1st Baptist church and Unitarian Universalist congregations. My most seriously conservative Christian friend has attended churches of several different denominations, and any doctrinal differences did not affect her choice, but rather the pastor and the community. The choice of a denomination is not purely social, as my comment might have sounded, but from what I've learned, the idea of "one true church" is just not a thing that happens outside of Mormon thought.

Fascinating to debate which fairy tale is true.

If you were to start churches of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, people would think you were nuts, but how is that any different than Christianity?

If there is a god, he/she/it is useless, so why bother. Millions of people in serious pain and no help given.

It is possible that our un inspired church taught us in inspired teachings about the nature of life, death, and what God is. I am afraid we will only know for sure when we die. Maybe that is how it should be? What if we knew everything? What if we knew absolutely that when we die we are simply born again into a new life? What if God is not what we think? What if he is simply a being of infinite love and compassion for humankind? The problem is that we don't know, and who can tell us? I thought I could believe the church and its leaders.

What's wrong with knowledge?
It sure beats the heck out of "faith," based on nothing but wishful thinking and fear.

You can "what if" all day long...and if you want to believe because it comforts you or gives you hope, that's your call.

But I would encourage you to invest in knowledge, not faith or belief. Anybody can have faith in or believe anything -- no matter how wacky, culty (mormonism), or far from reality. Some claim we "need" such beliefs, which I consider a crock. Knowledge is useful -- faith isn't. Knowledge lets us make rational decisions about our lives and what to do with them, faith denies reality and knowledge and makes us prone to accept the deep-sounding bullshit of con artists and those who wish to exploit us for their own purposes.

Humans have made up tens of thousands of "god" concepts. Not a one of them has a shred of evidence to back them up. Why believe such things then?

Good luck in your journey.

P.S. if you can say, where are you in China?

I don't mind saying. I am in a smaller city called Hefei. I was living in Beijing, but moved here last year. Better air, slower pace, I'm loving it.

Many Christian churches livestream and/or archive their sermons and/or complete worship services online. You can watch and learn about the different churches this way. I love it!