I'm new to this forum. I've read some of the conversations here from time to time over the last few years when I was feeling sad or frustrated, but I've always felt a little apprehensive about posting, and I'm a bit nervous doing so now.

However, I feel like I'm at a crossroads, and I would really like some insights from others who may have been down a similar road. I stopped going to church more than a decade ago, and I don't regret doing so. However, I do regret the effect it has had on my wife. I really feel like she is an amazing person, and I do love her very much. I started indulging my doubts about the church not too long after we got married. At the time, I had no intention of actually leaving the church, I just felt like my doubts were consuming me and I needed to address them head on. I really thought that it was an honest assessment of my feelings and would just lead me right back to the church. Well, obviously it didn't; quite the opposite. I now feel that the church does far more harm than good, and as one would expect, this has created a lot of tension in our marriage. I don't hide any of this from my wife. I've tried to be very open and honest with her.

Nonetheless, I also don't feel like this is fair to my wife. It's not what she signed up for when we got married and it has been very hard on her.

I've refused to let my children be forced into the church as well. That isn't to say that I prevent them from going or dictate them in some way, just that I make it very clear to them that they have a choice, and I openly discuss with them my reasons for not going. So far, my oldest has followed dad's path and she really doesn't want anything to do with the church. The middle child is wavering as well. Seeing the children make these decisions has also, understandably, been very hard on my wife. Knowing what I believed when I was in the church, I know how I would have felt, and it pains me greatly to think about what it is like for her to see this happening.

Again, my wife is one of the best, most kind hearted people I know, and she has quietly put up with me for the last 13 years. However, during the last couple of years, I have seen occasions where I feel that her true feeling have come through in moments of anger towards me. Some of it has me really concerned. On two separate occasions now, one just last night, she has, in tears, uttered the words "Why didn't you tell me before we got married??". Which, seems to me to indicate that she wishes she could have known that I had all of these doubts, so that she could have made a different choice about our marriage, and now she just feels trapped.

Of course, if I could go back in time, I would grant her that wish. At the time, I really felt that having doubts about the church was just normal (even she has admitted to having them on occasion). I never had any intention what-so-ever that I was going to leave the church after we got married. Quite the opposite. I saw her as a strong faithful member, and I thought it would only help me with my doubts.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the long backstory. I just feel like a terrible person in general right now, and I really don't know what to do about my marriage. She says she doesn't want a divorce, and I obviously don't either. However, When she describes her reasons for staying, it sounds more like Stockholm syndrome than a healthy, loving marriage, and I don't want her to feel trapped in our marriage. Sometimes I really feel like she would be better off without me, and I think I should just rip off the Band-Aid so that she can find someone who will actually make her happy.

Has anyone else experienced something like this? I'm really at a loss....

in lds, when you marry, you marry the church - not each other.

The trouble is that there are no guarantees in life -- no guarantee that if she had married someone else that they would have remained in the church -- no guarantee that if you divorce now she will find a righteous priesthood holder -- no guarantee that she would be happier with someone else.

This is life...Perhaps you could discuss this and decide if you really love each other and want the marriage to move forward or not. I'd hate to see you make that decision for her and vice versa.

knew when you first married.

1. You did not know that you would eventually have to disavow the church in order to maintain your personal integrity.

2. She did not realize that she was actually more married to the structure, culture, social aspects of the church that she is/was to you. You became part of her view and place in the Mormon universe. You were a stepping stone on her way to happy eternal times with Jesus and Elohim and all that heavenly hype.

3. Keep talking about this predicament in respect and in slow motion and eventually, you two may work things out? Some couples do and some don't.

This is one reason many of us exmos despise TSCC. It bullies its way right in between our personal relationships with spouses, children, parents etc.

You shouldn't feel guilty for being the victim. It's not you, it's them. Every LDS marriage is a ticking time bomb. When a partner finds out the church is all a huge lie, they can't live that lie. So, look at it this way: They did this to your wife. You could only act in accordance with who you are.

But let's face it, your wife doesn't love who you are because the church put that part of her to sleep like a leach injecting numbing venom. Every week she gets a booster shot. As a confirmation, no, you're not crazy. It really is the way it looks. You didn't put her in that bubble.

And besides, if she wasn't supposed to marry you, why didn't the Holy Ghost warn her? Either the HG was right about you or she broke her HG. Not your fault.

Be honest with her.

If you both bought a house that was sold as perfect and it had flaws you discovered later, would she be defending the house because it was sold as perfect and you made her aware that it wasn't?

Would she want to continue living in delusion? Would she want you to be honest with her?

If you were to ask her if she had to pick you or the church, which would she choose? If she doesn't love you more, there is your answer.

Mormons often set up women so they are dependent financially because they don't have careers and often have lots of kids. Is she trapped? Is she with you because of support for kids only? We see often the woman does not have the education to see through her brainwashing, plus she is emotionally and socially attached.

Do you love her enough to make a compromise of some sort?

Can you make some kind of agreement that she read a book with you to discuss so she can see your views if you agree to support her going to church?

The next thing to consider is the kids. How many and what ages? Would it be more damaging to wait until they are older or not? Financially, it can be a disaster trying to support them, her, and yourself in a new life. Teach them critical thinking skills and hopefully they will catch on.

Does she even know what would "make her happy" really? Are Mormon men just robots who are supposed to be interchangeable?
Does she want an individual or a McMormon? Does she really think being a divorced woman with kids is going to land her a future GA?

You are not alone. I was lucky in who I married. However, knowing what I know now, I would not have married based on who was an RM who could take me to the temple (dumb!).

I hope you can find out what she really wants. You sound unusually reasonable in your attempts to make her happy. It's not your fault they sold you a faulty house. She doesn't realize it, but she should be proud that she married someone who saw through it and had the spine to speak up about it.

I appreciate your comments, and everybody's comments, it's nice to feel support like this. I live in Utah county and sometimes I feel like I'm on my own! It's great to have a resource like this!

If you don't mind my asking and the question isn't too personal, are you lucky in who you married because your spouse also left the church or because you are have a spouse that is still in the church but still loves you for who you are and accepts you?

I ask because the selfish side of me is often left thinking that this would all be so much easier if I could "help her understand the truth". My own parents were in a similar situation to mine, where my father left the church. However, I still was forced to go to church. Their marriage worked, and they are still together, yet sometimes it seemed to me that they just avoided the subject and neither of them ever really seemed particularly happy. And now, history is repeating itself.

Now that I'm in the same shoes, I decided I wanted to do things differently. I truly do love my wife, and I wanted to try and help her. I've confronted her about the church several times. I now realize that I'm unlikely to ever change her mind, and I've realized that I love her anyway and I just need to be more respectful of her wishes. However, I look at her and she often seems sad, and I can't help but feel like I'm causing that anguish. I certainly don't feel like the man she should be proud of. I feel like a jerk.

Anyway, I realize that these are all issues that I need to work out with my wife. I've been hiding away in the basement since yesterday because I've been too scared to deal with it. I guess maybe I really just needed exactly what you all have given me so generously, support. I needed to feel like I'm not the only one in the world dealing with this. Thank you all so much for indulging me!!

My situation was a bit unusual.

My husband knew for years that the church was a crock. He was always too busy (a professional) to accept highest church callings and somehow I bought it. I considered the women in Relief Society to be sort of dumb, but I figured the church was true. I didn't enjoy hanging around making bunnies out of socks.

Meanwhile, my husband encouraged me to read and take an anthropology class. The only things he really pointed out to me were instances when women were treated as second class citizens. He expressed his discomfort about me not having the priesthood, needing a male middleman to reach God, and making an oath in the temple (back then) to obey him, while he took an oath to obey God and not me. I was in a major with few girls at BYU, so this began to resonate with me. I always hated the unfairness of polygamy.

So I continued to study. One day, I told him I had something to tell him: I didn't believe the church was actually true. His response: What took you so long!

He had waited over 10 years for me to catch on. He said he loved me more than the church so if the church was important to me, he would have played along for my sake. This is upsetting in hindsight.

I only knew him 3 months before I married him. That was sort of stupid. I would be mortified if my daughter had done that. OTOH, we evolved together.

So, to answer your question, I was lucky because 1) he didn't believe, and 2) he didn't require me to believer or not.


Every situation is different. It's hard to know at the time what the best decisions are. You only live once. Be true to yourself. Good luck!

Your husband sounds like an absolutely incredible person! Thank you for sharing, it's inspiring.

I was a TBM convert when I moved to the city where I live now. I was divorced, with one son, and truly never expected to marry again, as my first marriage had been absolute Hell with an abuser.

I met a guy at church who was divorced, like me, (I would find out later that the bishop set this up, telling DH that "there's this new lady in the ward. She's divorced, like you, and she speaks Spanish like you, too.")

This guy was sweet, decent, intelligent, and as advertised, Spanish-speaking. I had walled off my heart to anything of the male persuasion, because I had been so badly hurt before, so I was VERY reserved, but we went on several dates (all by the book, Mormon-wise) and I found that we clicked on many levels.

I had been an exchange student in Mexico; he had served a mission in Central America. So we were both bi-cultural, and could easily converse in either language. This was a central part of who we both were; speaking Spanish was job-related for both of us. He taught Spanish in school, I was a certified bilingual in my Government job.

He was bright, funny, and unlike my ex, decent to the core. We were both very cautious, having been eviscerated by previous divorces. We dated for over a year before getting married. We finally married (in the RS room. I had no problem with lying to get a TR, but he did.)

About a decade later, I had developed some issues with the church and the way it did things, but of course, there is never anybody you can really TALK to about this kind of stuff.

Then I found RfM. (Eric K., I owe you SO much!!) Here were other people, voicing the same doubts and questions as I had. And there were ANSWERS. And I learned how to resign from the church. I did so after about 6 months on this board.

DH was devastated at first. Over time, we attended other churches and he was exposed to other viewpoints. He still remains a believer, but he has not been active for over a decade.

When I inherited some family money in 2006, he was still working and urged me to indulge in my lifetime dream of visiting Europe. I didn't want to go by myself, but he pointed out that if I did, I could visit twice as many places on the budget I had. That trip remains one of the greatest experiences of my life.

I would learn later that while I was gone, the slimy snakes in the church barraged my DH with visits, urging him to come back.

He attended one meeting, and told me later, "I couldn't believe how drab and lackluster it was. After listening to professionally-trained clergy in some of the churches we have been to, it was a let-down to listen to ordinary civilians just rambling."

He still believes in "the Gospel" as a concept, reads the Bible and maybe the BoM sometimes, and I'm sure he prays daily. But he has been disillusioned by the church as a functional entity.

I was sick one Easter, sometime after that. He went to church. He came back, spiritually malnourished. He told me, "We are supposed to be celebrating the Resurrection of Christ today. But there wasn't ONE WORD about it. There was some rambling about how lucky we are to have a modern-day prophet, and the revelations of Joseph Smith, but NOTHING about Jesus."

As far as I know, he has never gone back. He maintains his private spiritual practice, and is a devout believer, but he does not need the intervention of the church.

There are many stories on this board just like your situation. It's a difficult one, and one that doesn't have a template for everyone to follow. Each person is different.

Some couples grow to dislike each other but stay together for the church. Like was said above, in the Mormon church you marry the church not your spouse.

Some couples realize they love each other and decide to stay together and work around the issues. The church puts unreasonable demands and makes the "non-believer" the bad guy. It's part of the indoctrination. Make the non-believer feel guilty and the believer think they are superior. Your taking away her eternal family! Don't fall for it. Be a good husband and father. Ask your wife if she thinks God will punish you/her for being a good person but just not attending the cult services? You still know the secret handshakes! It's all good.

Your okay, your wife is okay. I hope you can work out things together. Good luck.

I agree with everyone else - you are both blaming both the victims. She is reacting from her emotions, and it's not really her "fault," either. To judge that in her brainwashed mind, that she wishes she were promised a perfect life-after-death - I don't even know how to graph that one out.

If she brings it up as if you are to blame, I would gently remind her that it is neither of your fault(s) that you were both born into what you now know to be a farce.

Reaffirm your deep devotion to her, not her role in the church, and that you are willing to let faith/religion be a non-violable boundary issue if she is, but that you will not be berated for your faith, or lack thereof. It is as much a respect for freedom of religion for you as it is for her.

Your children deserve to learn from both of their parents.

Be well.

I didn't suffer from marriage regrets, but I do remember thinking (around marriage age), that I hoped I would find someone with a stronger (church) testimony than I had, to help me along.

As it turned out, I was the stronger of the two of us regarding this matter..yet, look where it got me in the middle of our marriage...me the doubter, and my husband the 'stronger'.

Also, I remember once--in my mid-marriage age--looking around the congregation as to who I might marry then, if it were possible--and I found no-one even close.

But, ya know, you get your 'smarts' along the way of life, not all at once. In the mean time, you get along as best you can.

Sorry for your troubles now--you deserve better (don't we all?)

Best Wishes...
P

The fact that you and your wife are communicating is a positive sign.

I really sympathize with you. When I was dating, I met Mormon and non Mormon women. I knew I would always feel unhappy trying to satisfy a woman who had religious expectations of me. A mormon woman's social circle and status revolves very much around her husband's place in the church.

My wife and I don't always see eye to eye but she essentially has zero expectations around my religious commitments. This has been a very happy experience for me.

I personally think there is no shame in leaving a marriage that can no longer be happy because of changed expectations. What comes as a red flag to me, is when you said you might want to divorce her as a favor to her. People in general can decide for themselves what's best for them.

There are also a lot of stories of spouses that both leave the church, but years apart. Be open to the possibility of that being your story too.

Best of luck. I wish you happiness.

Middle age can also present as challenging...neither you nor your spouse are the same people you were as hopeful bright eyed youngsters bravely gazing into what must surely be a happy future filled with hopes and requited dreams...the prophet said so after all...then mental pause will take you off at the knees again as the sunset looms...if you survive these evolvings youll be one of a few that does...wishes circumstance hormones health all change...its no wonder a change in theology is just another brick in a wall that might fall...i have no advice except stay with the ship till it lands or sinks...as long as you can tolerate each other...life can be just about tolerance...i and several of my buddies have proved it...as one person suggested a week ago...all those pondering divorce should attend a singles ward for a couple months...you know...shop those replacements...that might be a huge dose of reality..i have it on fair authority that men have far better prospects for renewed matrimonial bliss than thirty something women with kiddies and no job skills...sometimes a jolt of reality brings some semblance of reconciliation back to the marriage table..the devil you know might be better than the one you dont..perfection doesnt exist ever...even if tommy said so

This^^^^^

Being married means moving from some kind of fantasy about the two of you as one to something much more realistic.

Frankly, stuff happens in life. You say your wife seems unhappy. Well, life is not the picnic we expect it to be when we're young and idealistic newlyweds.

You may think you've hurt her due to your non-belief and perhaps you have. But both of you need to look realistically at your lives and realize no one gets everything.

She has a loving and devoted husband who truly wants her to be happy and fulfilled. That makes her very fortunate and she should understand and appreciate that.

I'm amazed at Mormon women's expectations for a perfect life to which they think they're entitled. But stuff happens.

I have a niece who married an RM in the temple. This was her Cinderella story! But it has not worked out happily. He turned out to be only a so so provider who spends all his free time playing video games. She works to support the three children they set about having quickly after the wedding. The first child was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes about age 8. Not two years later, the middle child was diagnosed with the same disease. Their financial situation is precarious tho they fortunately have health insurance. He's still active in the church as is she. But when I see her she seems, understandably, very sad and stressed.

I have a friend with three children. Her highly educated and well employed husband married her in the temple after completing his mission. He remained faithful to her and to the church and was a good father and provider. At age 45 he took a gun, drove into the desert west of Salt Lake and blew his brains out.

I have another friend whose 19 year old son died a year ago in his sleep. It turned out he had an undetected heart problem. She and her husband are devastated. They are together but many couples devolve into blaming and heartache and divorce after losing a child.

Things happen in life -- unemployment, illness, poverty, death, loss of testimony.

I was diagnosed five years ago with very early stage breast cancer. After surgery I was declared cured by the best cancer treatment hospital in the U.S. (many would also say the best in the world). Three years later, with only a 1% chance of this happening, I had a recurrence making me Stage 3C (next stage is 4 and fatal). I've been through 20 rounds of strong chemo and five weeks of daily radiation. I'm now on a drug that makes me fatigued much of the time. I still work full time. Dh has been there every step of the way. And I could not have gotten through everything without him. But when we met in high school and married while in college neither of us ever imagined that life-threatening cancer was in our future.

The point of all of this Debbie Downer stuff -- don't assume your loss of faith has made your wife sad. She may be experiencing general disillusionment with life. It happens to all of us.

She may also benefit from a dose of reality. Many things happen in life. A spouse's loss of testimony is one, but lots of other disappointments happen as well. Your wife is fortunate in many ways. She needs a wake up call to appreciate that.

I just want to give you a great big hug, Anontoday. That was so heartfelt and beautiful and poignant and everything. Such is real life. Mormonism doesn't talk about these things or prepare people to deal with it because it doesn't jibe with prosperity gospel's ideals that God's love and favor follows naturally with goodness. I've known very good people who can't seem to catch a break and bad people who skate through life enjoying hurting others. Fair is a four letter word that starts with F.

Wow, that really puts things into perspective doesn't it! Thank you for sharing your story. I admire your strength and I wish you the best in your fight and hope that all goes well for you!!

It came to a head in my marriage.

I told her I was willing to get a divorce instead of being around so much BS and bad feelings. There was no way I could sit in church listening to lies.

I now recreate hard on Sundays and not a word is ever said ---- she valued our marriage and family more than the church but still is a TBM with whatever testimony that she will never tell me.

She never turns down vacations over Sunday though ----- which we are on right now.

before I realized I had to get out of the church.
I could feel the same way about them.
They could be furious at me for deceiving them.
But, they understand what a force the church has on a person.
Sadly, the spouse is harder to convince.

But, do you want your children to end up in the same dilemma?
That's why I had to get out. For my children.

People need to live their own lives, even married couples. Your wife has every right to remain Mormon, but you have every right to decide what you believe or don't believe. I think that both of you need to accept and respect the right of the other person to their beliefs.

Stop hoping for her to wake up to the lies of Mormonism. If it happens, it happens because she wants it. She will also have to accept that you have the right to live your life according to your own beliefs. Neither of you has the right to control the other. Only mutual respect and acceptance is going to solve this problem.

If you're able to see the church is a scam, you should also appreciate the scam of marriage.

There is no such thing as unconditional love. We each married each other because we wanted something, whether it was money or sex or kids or status or whatever. Not much had to do with the person themselves.

My wife wouldn't have married me if I was a janitor. I probably wouldn't have married her if she looked different. Pretty shallow, but reality.

She once threatened me with divorce, so I told her, fine, but I'm not leaving. You can go after we sit the kids down and you explain to them why you're blowing up the family. She somehow decided we could work it out.

So after 34 years, the fantasy is over. We are together mostly for practical reasons. And the grass isn't greener on the other side. Funny that when you accept reality, and have lower expectations, things get better.

I would forget discussions about the church, but sit down and ask her why she married you. Ask if she would have married you if you weren't a faithful Mormon. Then explain how she actually married you to boost her image in the church, and to gain acceptance from family and church members. Most important to her is her status.

These things are done subconsciously, and time for her to get them foremost in her mind.

The other option, since women are supposedly the property of their husbands (as I've read here) is simply command her to quit the church. Report back on that.

There are some excellent responses here.

To the OP, I would also post to the www.newordermormon dot net forum because there are so many people in the same situation. You will find some great help there too.

Just because she has expressed some disappointment that things are not how she anticipated is not enough reason to decide to help her out by leaving. My DH sometimes thinks that way---that unless he is perfectly meeting some expectations--what he imagines are mine, or some standard in his head that I don't even know about, that his recourse is to leave.

This terrifies me. Yes, of course there are some disappointments; the flow of life doesn't turn out how we day-dreamed it would before we started. That's life.

Every person and situation is unique, of course, but maybe, just maybe, she is sharing with her beloved how she feels at that moment---and this is not necessarily a call for drastic action in response. Being able to be honest about how I feel without being afraid it is going to precipitate being abandoned would be really nice for me. Maybe for her too. Maybe this is an opportunity for increased intimacy in that one could share their real feelings, be listened to, discuss with concern for each others' well-being---deepening the love. The kicker in this scenario could be the church's doctrines---but maybe, just maybe, the love and shared life would be strong enough, and trust in God's goodness also strong enough, to lead through this rough patch to a deeper, lovelier marriage and family life.

I hope so.

Tell her that you would like to regain your testimony if possible, that the CES letter encapsulates your reasons for doubt, and ask her to read it and see if she can explain why these facts are irrelevant to the truth of Mormonism.

yodaman Wrote:
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> Nonetheless, I also don't feel like this is fair
> to my wife. It's not what she signed up for when
> we got married and it has been very hard on her.

I beg to differ.
She "signed up" to love, honor, and cherish YOU.
For better or worse. In sickness/health. Richer/poorer.
Church or no church.

It's YOU she signed up to be with. Whatever you are.

The only thing getting her to value the church more than YOU is the church. Notice the circularity of that?

I'm not discounting how hard this is. I know it is, especially on her. She's getting conflicting messages -- she obviously loves you and your kids, and wants to remain a family. Yet the church is telling her she isn't a family unless all of the family is faithful, church-going, tithe-paying.

Is there a way you can gently remind her of her actual marriage vows? Where she promised to be with YOU no matter what YOU are?
I don't know if that will allow her to see how the church is manipulating her out of a wonderful family to which she should be loyal, but it's worth a shot.

A bishop convinced my mother some 43 years ago that unless she could "reactivate" my dad, she should divorce him (after 15+ years with no real problems other than him not going to church and 3 kids), and find herself a "worthy" priesthood holder. She tried to get dad back. He wouldn't go. So she did what he said, and divorced him. Stupidest reason to break up a family EVER.

Best.

Thanks for the advice. I'll admit that I still haven't talked with her. I kind of lost my window of opportunity for the moment as we had family show up and they are currently staying with us. So, I've just been sort of miserable, putting on a happy face for everyone and feeling like I just want to crawl into a corner. I couldn't sleep at all last night and so I went into work early this morning so I can get away from it all.

I also just found out that my wife has been forcing my daughter to sit down and have scripture reading time, against her will. I don't know why it is that my wife won't talk to me about things like this. I'm okay with her teaching our children about her beliefs, I don't think that is an unreasonable thing to do, I just don't want her force feeding her this stuff against her will. It seems so disrespectful to my daughter's choices.

My daughter is a pretty awesome kid though and has had a great attitude about it. We like to watch mystery science theater together, and she told me that she has just been pretending she is listening to a bad B movie and coming up with her own punch lines in her head. That kind of made my day!

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your parents, that bishop just sounds like a terrible person for suggesting such a thing. Isn't the church supposed to be about bringing families together? Funny how it seems that it more often has the opposite affect.

I like your perspective on the marriage vows. I think that deep down inside my wife does see it that way, but all of the church stuff about being together forever, and only getting to the celestial kingdom with a husband just clouds her judgement. She feels like she's losing her kids, even though they aren't going anywhere and they love her. Sigh......

I really do just feel sick inside right now. Having the chance to talk about this here really has been helpful though, and I really appreciate the time that everyone has given in writing all of these wonderful comments and suggestions!

yodaman Wrote:
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> ...they aren't going anywhere and they
> love her.

Yep. Remind her of that.

With you may the force be! :)

yodaman Wrote:
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> She feels like she's losing her kids,
> even though they aren't going anywhere and they
> love her. Sigh......

That's a big deal. Countless times I've listened to mothers in Relief Society crying, carrying on about their 'lost' children. How they are inactive (nowdays, 'less active'). The 'heartache' and 'please pray for them to return to the church'.

Not saying your wife is in that place but I really hate that crap. I always thought if the child could hear the mother talking about them that way, then what? No relationship. Glorified gossip all the damn time in RS.

It's terrible to saddle children with the parents' beliefs. It's awful to feel conditionally accepted based on allegiance with parental beliefs.

But your kids will know there is a choice. They may feel divided, they may hate all this bullshit that they feel in their solar plexus as mom and dad are on opposite ends. If the church didn't require body, mind and soul, it would be different.

I hope your kids have the smarts to avoid temple marriage. I think kids who grow up seeing and feeling the discord (between their parents) often reject the religion. When your wife has scripture studies with your daughter, the implied message is that you aren't in line with who you should be. That sucks big time but it's part of the tragedy called mormonism.

Other religions don't punish you if you marry somebody who doesn't share your beliefs. Other religions don't make marriage to another member a requirement.

My wife recently told me she has been thinking and wondering if she wants to wait til the next life to have the blessings of being married to a worthy priesthood holder, which hurts. But then she seems to switch to trying to keep me from leaving. I am happy to stay if she really wants me for who I am, but if she really wishes she had something else, I want to part ways. I don't know, and maybe she doesn't either. Sometimes she talks about having to square her shoulders and accept the burden of keeping her covenant even if the other party (me) didn't. Sometimes she seems to love me for who I am.

Mormonism: Destroyer of lives. At best a slog through a self-imposed dark and dreary world of shame and guilt.

I'm out DW is in. Half kids in half out with me for two years. DW is unbelievably accepting of where I and our kids that are out are at. Being on this forum helped me understand that I should not take anything for-granted and much insight and support was gleaned. Honestly I am at times befuddled at how supportive DW is but is still able to remain in. I mean all the messages are that our marriage is less without me in.

So what am I saying. I think laying out in plain language where you perceive things are at and that you are scared of what it might mean to your marriage going forward.

Ugh. Damn cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2017 07:58PM by mannaz.

I am a nevermo but I echo what dagny has said. I believe it incredibly sad that tscc interferes and has so much control over marriage between two individuals, which can be difficult enough without the interference of tscc.

I, personally, believe it's a travesty. It can be particularly difficult when the couple is young, even without the interference of a 'church', if you can call LDS, Inc. a church. It is a billion+ dollar corporation, masquerading as such. A criminal enterprise , in my opinion. Best of luck to you and your wife :)

So many posts here. You are both victims of the church here. Of course you love each other. I used to feel that way as a TBM. I felt like I had forced my wife into my LDS way of living. She got baptized, but very quickly saw through the church's lovely facade. It took me a while, but I came around. I am not saying she will leave the church, but I think your discussion with her should be along these lines. If the church is true then there is no way you would be punished or withheld any blessing by a loving God because your spouse does not believe. there is no reason to get a divorce if you love each other.

Second that slayermegatron. My spouse also converted for me , took me through the temple and quickly saw through it. That there was something so astonishing about the journey that makes a connecting both baffles and amazes me. He too waited for me to awaken to the church dream but let me. Allowed me choice and my own time to if I would awaken and how. He kept saying:" ------, are you sure, are you sure," as I shared shards of the idealized dream with him as it was breaking facts hung on the fabric ripping Rents in it threads torn formerly woven in a church curriculum propaganda tapestry that still clung to me (at least parts of me), him kneeling beside my desk while I ruffled through papers on the desk then my hands in his hair as he knelt his arms around my waist. Whys does it have to be this way? So many core skills attributes of personality groomed and grown lds yet pulled by paradoxes like fragile wings on a strong wind. What a waste ! both he and I were facing unfathomable deidealized church dreamer awakening , his arms around my waist.

He thinks the wings my wings are very strong "they are independent of any church ideology"

Pepsi coffee meh at least it's not whiskey in the mirning



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2017 11:01AM by paintinginthewin.

"If the church is true then there is no way you would be punished or withheld any blessing by a loving God because your spouse does not believe." You put this well slayermegatron. I need to emphasize this.

The problem is there are women and children who give talks and cry about the joy of having a worthy priesthood holder to give them a blessing, or the opposite--how terrible it is not to have a worthy priesthood holder to give them a blessing.

I attend church with my wife. One day a boy gave a long tearful talk about having appendicitis on his vacation and how he didn't have a worthy priesthood holder to give him a blessing. If he had a non-member, less active, or otherwise unworthy father, that must have hurt. I can also imagine how it made the women feel who don't yet have in their possesion such a worth priesthood holder.

You poor man! You are blaming yourself too much. You did nothing wrong. You are maturing with the years, growing, learning new things, just living your life. You are a man of integrity. Most important, you are a hero! You saved your children from an evil cult! Their marriages will probably be better than yours. Their lives will be happier than yours.

My children resigned with me, and we are closer, and happier that I ever imagined we could be! Living without that constant black cloud of peer-pressure, Mormons forcing me to believe lies, Mormons blaming me for being a divorced single working mother (I had to support my children!), Mormons making me feel bad about myself, Mormons physically and mentally abusing my children--I could put time and energy and money towards building a happy life for us!

Why, why, why do I know of many--in fact most--couples of different religions who are very happily married? Most Christian couples I know have changed churches several times, when they move away from their church, if they decide they like another pastor better, if they want to go to the church most of their friends attend, if a different church has a better youth program, or if one of the two of them stops believing in church--for a hundred different reasons. Never, is religion an issue with these people.

IMO, religion becomes an issue in a marriage, if one of the pair is in a CULT.

Somehow, you need to back up, and get a more detached perspective, and decide that Mormonism is unimportant. My liberal GA relative used to tell married couples, "Religion should not be an issue in a marriage." That's good advice. Agree to disagree. I admire you so much for not throwing your children under the bus, to try to appease your wife's Mormon habit.

I was once in your wife's position, when my husband became inactive. I was very unhappy. After about a year, I realized what was making me unhappy. I was being marginalized in the ward, because my husband was "an inactive." I went everywhere alone. I went to all the weddings and funerals with two divorced women in the ward (we actually had fun) and we were ridiculed and called "The Three Musketeers.' Several married men in our ward hit on me. I felt demeaned. Of course, I was not included in any of the couples activities. I didn't go to "Temple Night" in LA, followed by dinner and a broadway show. My husband was treated like dirt, and that was upsetting to witness. Throughout, he was honest about his beliefs, and he vowed to not give them one more minute of his time, not one more dime of his money. That was the quickest way for me to see how Mormons react to being told "No." My TBM in-laws blamed me for everything, even though I was the one taking our kids to church, and having three callings.

My husband made weekends, and Sundays so much fun, that we wished that we could be with him, instead of being criticized and blamed and taught conflicting "facts" about JS and his wacky ideas. I was constantly being asked for money.

There is such a thing as unconditional love! You are giving it to your lucky wife. She will never find love like that in her Mormon ward.

Stop criticizing her, and start offering her MORE. There are so many other fun and uplifting things for you to do with your children, as a family. Do them all! If your wife is in her right mind, she will choose to be with you and your children, instead of alone, sitting by herself, for three hours. Relax--the nasty Mormons will push her out, and you won't have to do anything, except comfort her, and help her discover real Truths.

Mormon women marry for image. They do not know how to love. That requires independent thought. The church thinks for them. She will not be any happier with another man. Help her see and find you. Send her somewhere alone for a while. A beach. A mountain. Tell her to stay off the phone. Just be and ponder. Ask her to look at you from 35,000 feet away. See you as a husband, friend and father. Tell her to come back to all that you are or choose a fork in the road. A risk, but life is best lived transparently. Do the same yourself.

The church was more important to my ex than me. Hard. Looking back and today I'm glad. I have found my 'soul mate.'

Once you have children, your marriage should be largely about how to bring them up happy and secure. If your wife is unhappy about the spiritual status of her marriage, and her afterlife, surely she can deal with this after the kids are old enough to deal with a divorce. When they are young and need both parents to be providing them with security and love, it would be inexcusable for her (or you) to break up the family for reasons pertaining to status in the church, or in the next life.

Mind you, I am a nevermo, so no doubt I am underestimating the pressures she must feel. I have young children, however, and I know how important it is to keep a family together even the parents do not see eye to eye, or if they don't still have the old 'lovin' feeling' any more.

It is possible for you to salvage your marriage and even have hope that your spouse will see the truth. Unfortunately, it is very, very hard and takes a lot of love and determination on your part.

You seem to love your wife a lot, so consider this:

The love you and your wife share is stronger than Mormonism. People might argue over this, saying you marry the church, rod of iron, etc, etc, but we all still are driven by instinct and judge people by their actions.

The cult has taught your wife that an apostate will lose the Holy Spirit and degenerate, loving to sin, being unfaithful, etc. This is where your opportunity begins, your new mission: to prove the church untrue BY YOUR ACTIONS. Your new attitude is FAMILY FIRST. This is completely against the true orientation of the Mormon Church, which is the CHURCH FIRST.

I promise you, no mother can resist a husband who says his new priority is her and the kids.

Whenever you would have gone to quorum meetings, clean the ward, execute your calling, meet with the bishop--instead, plan something with the family or her. Take her to dinner, have a family game night with a new game you bought.

Have Family Home Evening with alternating leadership. She can lead one from the manual and the next week you will lead a "getting to know you better" or a family fun night. You get the idea.

Go every other Sunday or as much as you can stand, with your wife to church meetings. On the alternate Sundays, she goes with you to a picnic, or the beach, or some other activity. It may take a while to get to a 1:1 ration on this, but this is important: make sure to tell your wife that you are going because you want to sit by her as your companion because you don't want those Relief society bitches feeling sorry for her. You want to make sure they know she has a man by her side out of love, not duty.

The kids will want to do your activities every time. You make sure they understand they must respect (use that exact word) their mother's beliefs and honor her by attending church on alternate weeks. You back her up that she gets to take them on her weekend.

Keep in mind that this is what would happen in a divorce anyway so why not do it now at whatever proportion she is comfortable with and save the marriage.

How do you maintain your own authenticity while attending Mormon services? You are doing this for a greater good--you are saving a family, as in, FAMILIES ARE FOREVER.

You agree with your wife that her paying tithing on half your income (regardless of who works) is fine with you. But not on your half. You are going to use your half to fund family activities and dates with her. This reflects your beliefs and you ask for her respect equally for your beliefs, lack of belief, transition or whatever.

If you feel your children must go to a church, go to the nearest Unitarian church which teaches tolerance. Your marriage will only survive if you, through your actions, show yourself as a worthy person who accepts your wife, even though she believes in a cult.

You really can't expect tolerance from her unless you give it TO her first.

If she worries about your salvation, just answer that Jesus sees into a man's heart and he will find that you love your family. You are hoping that is enough.


Best of luck. Remember that others have pulled this off and you can too.


Kathleen

It's NOT either of your faults that she married someone who would eventually stop believing in the church, and she needs to realize this too. If there's anyone to blame its the church. The church is the one who is being dishonest here and the church is the one who pressures young people to get married asap. Had the church been honest and upfront with its members, Mormon couples would not be in this situation.

Also, even if you are no longer a believer, it has no bearing on your wife's "salvation." She needs to realize this too. You both can live happily in a mixed-faith marriage. Even according to Mormon doctrine man is not responsible for other people's "sins." In other words, just because YOU are not living the church's path to "eternal happiness" does not mean your wife can't. She can still go to the celestial kingdom, even if she is married to a non-believer. God knows she married with the right intentions. God is not going to deny her happiness in the Celestial Kingdom because of her husband. If she is worried about not having a husband in heaven, then same thing. God is not going to punish her without a husband in heaven because of her earthly husband's disaffection. Like Mormons love to say, it will all be sorted out in the hereafter. I'm sure God will bless her with an "eternal companion" in heaven if she is faithful in this life.

Establish together what you love and share in your life together, don't underestimate this life you have built.
Love her unconditionally, even though she loves the church. She has been taught to believe she has no security without the church. Love, love, love her.

It appears that your wife is holding a grudge.

Once your visitors depart, I would give her a nice, extended opportunity to vent her feelings about you not attending church, along with how she is treated at church having an inactive spouse. You can ask guiding questions to help her explore her feelings in depth.

After she has an opportunity to do that, I would tell her that given her decision to stay in the marriage, she will need to find a way to make peace with your inactivity since it is not fair to you to keep bringing it up.

How your children are being raised is (to my way of thinking,) a separate issue. I might ask your wife what she hopes your eldest daughter will gain through the scripture reading activities. Indoctrination in Mormonism? Instruction in morality? Once you ascertain what her goal is, ask, how will she know that she has been successful? Once you have more information, you can make a better decision about how to address the issue.

I come from a mixed-faith family. My mom was Catholic and my father was raised Episcopalian. They jointly made the decision to marry in the Catholic church and raise my brother and myself as Catholics. My dad attended church with us as a family, but never converted.

When my dad was going through a serious illness, we stopped attending church. Later, after he died, I told my mom that I no longer considered myself Catholic and that I was even questioning Christianity as a whole (my brother came to the same conclusions I did, and now considers himself to be agnostic.) I would say that it took her about a year to adjust to that. Interestingly, she grew increasingly detached from the Catholic church in subsequent years, and never again became a regular church-goer. She always maintained her spirituality, however, and as I lived with her in her old age I could often hear her saying her prayers just before bedtime.

People change. The less devout may become more devout and vice versa. I would tell your wife that the Mormon church is not going anywhere, and that your eldest daughter can make the decision to go back at any point (or go to some other church,) but that it is unlikely to happen if it is shoved down her throat. Spirituality is like a flower that must be gently nurtured; it will die under a crushing weight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2017 07:57AM by summer.