The Catholic Church (usually) has an 'open door' policy that allows Catholics, or anyone else, to come inside the chapel at "off" hours (meaning no sermon mtgs. going on), in order for people to enter their buildings to worship or pray, or pay to have candles lit for them.

In stark contrast, the LDS church locks its door tight on "off" hours (unless one has a key to get into the bldg, such as using the genealogy library rm.).
----
Speaking of which...

I live near Los Angeles, where the Catholics have a (relatively) grand new building. A Catholic friend of mine (at my request) took me to see and inspect this new edifice.

I so enjoyed our self-guided tour, but she was through almost before we began.

One thing that took me by surprise was that, in the basement (which was very well lighted by faked windows), in a very small space that just fit an open displayed casket, was the mummy of a Catholic saint (a woman). When I asked about this display, a proprietor told me 'how lucky they were to have her for awhile'. (What!? they send this mummified saint around on tours?)

In contrast, as far as I know, Mormons don't put their departed, preserved, saints on display. (However, remember the Indian displayed in the SLC museum on Temple Square? Yes, this is true--but not a LDS. At least several decades ago, when I saw it.

Another point of interest in the Catholic Cathedral was a big vat at the back of the congregation seating, that contained olive oil. (It took me awhile to figure out what the liquid was in that vat.) (My clueless friend had no idea, and no interest in it.)
---

Along one side of the inside of this Catholic chapel, hung canvas-like 'pictures', which were about 7ft tall. The figures painted on these hangings (I finally figured out) were Jesus' Apostles. (A funny note: I asked my naive friend how the artists knew what these men looked like. She pondered this grave question for a couple of minutes, and then said "I don't know".)

There was a plaza between the building we went into, and a store in which people could shop for Catholic items. This store (as far as I remember), only had a couple of items to sale. 1) Bottles of wine--lots of bottles of wine; 2) crucifixes; and 3) The strung-together beads which represent what Catholics believe, and which many use often to remind them of their holy sacraments.

This interesting building was just off a busy L.A. freeway, so there was no peace and quiet in the plaza in which to ponder holy matters.

pollythinks Wrote:
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> In contrast, as far as I know, Mormons don't put
> their departed, preserved, saints on display.

I don't think Mormons HAVE saints, in a Catholic sense. A "saint" in Catholicism (so far as I am aware) is someone who, when alive as well as after their death, was so extremely "close" to God that the person was able to perform "miracles" (of healing, etc.) which are considered "proof" that that particular person was a "saint." Those individual instances of "miracles" are (to my knowledge) investigated by Catholic authorities at length and, if found to be true, may then be submitted as the evidence required for subsequent canonization as saints. The process is lengthy and involved, and (in my opinion) is definitely not fail-safe. (As is illustrated by the fairly recent canonization of Father Junipero Serra, who was (during his lifetime), and in my opinion, on the extreme other end of the "sainthood" and sinner scale in how he "treated" his fellow human beings when he was alive. To countless humans who became involuntarily under his control, he was most definitely no saint, and his enormous real life authority over these lives was most definitely pernicious, and I am being charitable in my words here.)

> Another point of interest in the Catholic
> Cathedral was a big vat at the back of the
> congregation seating, that contained olive oil.
> (It took me awhile to figure out what the liquid
> was in that vat.) (My clueless friend had no idea,
> and no interest in it.)

I've been in a lot of Catholic churches throughout my life (native-born Angelino here), and I have never seen or noticed anything like this), though it could be something that only applies to cathedrals. Do you know what the olive oil is used for, and why the vat of oil is located at the back of the sanctuary?

> 3) The strung-together beads which
> represent what Catholics believe, and which many
> use often to remind them of their holy
> sacraments.

If you are talking about rosaries, they are "counting beads" placed in groups, at specific intervals, on a chain of some kind (think: Buddhist or Hindu prayer beads, which are analogous) to count the various prayers in the rosary: So many "Our Father's" (the Lord's prayer)...so many Hail Mary's...and there is another prayer that I cannot remember the name of (it has been a long time since I heard a rosary being prayed---either in person, or on the radio)...

...but there is a specific sequence of different prayers which, after all have been recited, are "one rosary." Many people (at least where I used to live) try to recite one rosary a day (which is why this was an actual radio program which was broadcast daily, so people could pray the rosary with others, and there was no need for the assistance of a bead rosary for counting purposes). (Many people were able to say the rosary while they were driving home each day after work, so this kind of radio program was immensely practical in automobile-centered places like Southern California. I don't know if a "rosary hour" was on other stations throughout North America, but it would have made perfect sense wherever there were a large number of Catholics, and whether people were driving, or were on buses or commuter train, or were home preparing the evening meal.)

Further thought: The purpose of the radio "rosary hour" could easily have been connected to the visitation of Mary to the children in Portugal, which (during the Cold War here in the United States) became immensely important to Catholics because the word was that if every Catholic prayed the rosary daily, Mary (the mother of Jesus) would prevent the Communists from taking over the United States (a very real fear at the time; this is why kids growing up were taught to "duck and cover" as a part of their educations).

For whatever reason: there was a period of time in the United States when Catholics (as a whole) were very involved in (ideally) saying the rosary daily, in order to protect themselves, their families, and the entire country from potentially catastrophic harm that could be unleashed at any (potential) moment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2017 06:11PM by Tevai.

I'm guessing about the oil in a cathedral is that it could be for ordaining new clergy, as new priests are anointed during the ceremony. Also, one thing the Catholic church does have in common with Mormonism is anointing someone who is sick. It's possible that priests and chaplains of hospitals get their oil from that vat. I'd assume that the oil in the vat is blessed at the same time the holy water used for baptisms is blessed, so those using the oil don't have to bless it again.

I'm not Catholic myself, but I'm just guessing at this point with the vat of oil. My dad was from a Catholic family, so I have some basic understandings of that church.

"Along one side of the inside of this Catholic chapel, hung canvas-like 'pictures', which were about 7ft tall. The figures painted on these hangings (I finally figured out) were Jesus' Apostles. (A funny note: I asked my naive friend how the artists knew what these men looked like. She pondered this grave question for a couple of minutes, and then said "I don't know".)"

The artist who created these tapestries spoke to our art class. The "bodies and clothing" are generic. Many of the faces are of his friends and family members. I recognized one as a current art teacher at our community college.

Consecrated (blessed) oil. Used to cross oneself with when entering the sanctuary. They also use holy water for this.

Saints don't perform miracles. Catholic prays to saint to intercede on their behalf with God to get latter to perform miracle. This is the BIG beef the Prots have with Catholicism as they don't think anyone should come between them and God.

The "mummified" saint was a relic. Cats think stuff to look at helps develop and sustain their belief. So they love having relics (bibles, cloaks, rocks, bones, chalices, shrouds, whatever,) that they can look at to remind them of the saint (whose pure live they aspire to emulate) when they pray.

You don't "pay" to have a candle lit. Just go in and light it yourself. If you want to leave a donation to pay to buy more candles (or support the church,) you can.

Cats leave the churches open so people in crisis can go in any time of the day to get religious sustenance and help them continue toiling through their miserable existence (if applicable.)

Rosary. Paryers are Our Father, Hail Mary, Hail Holy Queen and that one about father and son and holy spirit, as it was in the beginning...(can't remember the name of it.) Think of praying the rosary as similar to meditating. It's just meditating with a repetitive word pattern you recite.

Cats love drinking and do not limit their libations to wine.

I am no longer Cat.

The money is for the candle.It is less than buying your own so they are barely breaking even.No one enforces it anyway. Bodies of saints are common in Europe, less so here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2017 10:49PM by bona dea.

The Catholic Church has a paid ministry and they don't tie your salvation to acceptance of endless callings. They invite their members to serve whenever they want. The cult demands it's members serve always.

There are differences, but also similarities--
1. Both have a top-down hierarchy.
2. Popes and prophets generally last until they die.
3. Both need "the church" to include a called priesthood to administer sacred rites in official capacity.
4. Although the Catholic faith doesn't generally excommunicate now, historically excommunication was used to control people and leaders.

In the above posts, it was noted that some Catholic churches, especially cathedrals, contain relics. As a non-Catholic, some of it seems bizarre. For example, I do not understand why the head of St. Catherine of Sienna is displayed in the cathedral.

However, I've learned to ask questions about things I don't understand about Catholicism. My Catholic friends and priests are always willing to explain why something happens in a ritual (bells ringing during the Eucharist), why relics are important, what dogma or doctrine teaches, etc. I've never had a Catholic friend, or priest, purposely mislead me about points of doctrine or worship practices. And, there is nothing secret about the mass, ritual, or doctrine.

What I like most about Catholicism is that I'm always treated as an honored guest by friends and clergy when I attend mass, visit a cathedral, etc. I've met several Utah Catholic bishops and found them to be warm and gracious men.

On my part, as a non-Catholic, I will walk up to the alter during communion and cross my arms indicating that I desire a blessing, rather than elements, out of respect for my Catholic friends.

The Protestant Boner.

I can't speak definitively for the Roman Catholics, but the use of holy water and consecrated oil is nearly identical in the Episcopal Church. I have never seen a "vat" of oil anywhere here in the US or Europe. Our tradition is to have the diocesan Bishop bless a cruet of oil during the Easter season that is used during the following year. We keep it in an aumbry, a cabinet that also contains blessed hosts (wafers) and wine that has been reserved blessed Communion elements may be used by Deacons and specially trained laity to take the Eucharist to the ill or shut ins

The oil is used during baptism when the person receives thesign of the cross in oil (oil of chrism) and considered to be " marked as Christ's own forever". The oil may be used by a priest to confer a blessing, especially for the ill or before death or immediately after and is called Holy Unction. We recognize saints, but more in light of recognizing those who led exemplary lives. For example, King Kamemeha is listed as suCh.

Nole Girl

Like Gatorman, looking forward to the CWS

You're correct, Anglicans/Episcopalians were the most conservative during the Reformation. This means that many parts are identical to Catholicism--the 7 Sacraments, church art, holy orders, clerical vestments, and the importance of the historic episcopate (bishop). These all come to mind.

My Episcopal friends tell me that they are the "via media" or "middle road" between Catholicism and Protestantism.

In the United States, everyone is welcome to partake of the Eucharist at Episcopal worship, if desired. This is probably true for other world-wide members of the Anglican Communion.

I have attended small Episcopal worship services where I've been asked to drink the remaining communion wine as it had been consecrated. In the event that all the wine cannot be drunk, there is a special place in the sacristy where the wine can be poured directly into the ground. None of this is secret or hidden. If asked, a member of the clergy will explain why consecrated elements are not thrown away.

It should be noted that Episcopalians and Lutherans both believe in "real presence" in the bread and wine. We do not toss the extras away.

Mormons, and other Protestant groups do not believe in real presence, but that the Eucharist (Mormonism--The Sacrament) is done as a commandment in MEMORY of Christ (a memorial). In these communities, bread, water, or grape juice may be discarded if not needed. The Boner



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2017 11:45PM by BYU Boner.

Did a lot of reading about Catholic sacraments and rituals on my way out of the church, and I'm 99% certain that the "vat" of oil must have been something else. Just as a fire hazard, it would not be allowed (Catholic churches these days usually have electric "candles" for this reason. Holy water is placed in a stoup (shallow container at hand level with a sponge) for blessing oneself, and sometimes there is an urn with a spigot for parishioners to fill there own holy water bottles. Chrism oil is kept in small stoppered containers, and is used only by the clergy.

Not familiar with a vat of olive oil. Are you sure it wasn't a baptismal font? Older churches have small dispensers of "holy water", traditionally used for "blessing oneself" on entry - sign of cross made after dipping a couple fingers in the font -- really just a way of preparing yourself to be contemplative and respectful upon entering the space.

Consecrated oil would be kept in a small cruet as someone else mentioned.

Anyway, unlike Mormon Temples most Catholic churches are relatively open and all are welcome to visit at least during daytime hours. Some consideration is given to security in many being closed overnight.

The open door policy -- historically yes, to offer a spiritual refuge at all times. But the last time I wanted to see the interior of a local Catholic church, it was closed and locked, so IDK.

Relics -- as CateS explained, Catholics love relics. I have never heard of an American CC with the body of a saint. That sounds more old-school Europe to me.

Saints -- are considered to be models for Catholic faith. No more, no less.

The big vat of oil -- no clue. I've never heard of that before.

Pictures of the Apostles -- I wouldn't consider this to be unusual.

The wine for sale -- my best guess is that the wine might be made by friars to support a monastery. I can't imagine why it would be sold otherwise, although Catholics have no objection to alcohol.

Rosaries -- as was explained above, they are essentially prayer beads. Catholics count off prayers on the rosary. As such, the prayers have a meditative effect. Rosaries can be quite pretty. They don't have to even be taken out, sometimes Catholics will use a rosary that is in their pocket.

On the oil. I agree with what the others have said. I've never seen a vat of consecrated oil.

Generally (every time I've ever seen) Cats us holy water with which to bless themselves upon entering/exiting.

I think they bless with oil during the baptism, pretty sure they use it during confirmations. I would lay money they use it during holy orders.

I know they bless with ashes on Ash Wednesday.

On the candles, I think the language will vary in the different churches buy you aren't paying to light a candle.

Yes, some Catholic Churches are locked at night. Because of possibility of vandalism. Traditionally, not the case.

Yes, there will be some sort of bowl with holy water (water that has been blessed) at the entryway to every Catholic church or cathedral. Catholics will take some of the holy water on their fingers and make the sign of the cross over their bodies. They will also genuflect toward the altar as they enter the church.

When I was confirmed, the local bishop visited our church. It was a big deal. He marked a cross on my forehead in oil as he gave me my "confirmation name." This is not unlike Mormonism's new name, only you get to pick it out. It should be the name of a saint. Mine is Catherine. Most likely the oil is used during the sacrament of holy orders as well.

Yes, the cross on your forehead is made with ashes on Ash Wednesday.

The money box near the candles is more of a donation box to cover the cost of the candle. It is voluntary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2017 07:19AM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The open door policy -- historically yes, to offer
> a spiritual refuge at all times. But the last time
> I wanted to see the interior of a local Catholic
> church, it was closed and locked, so IDK.
>
>
>

If the door was lock, dollar to donuts they have experience vandalism. Catholic churches are usually unlock, unless there is reason to lock them. In my former parish, it was unlocked during the day, including the restrooms. When vandals started smearing feces in the bathrooms, the bathrooms were locked, though the church itself remains open.

Since several people mentioned pictures of the Apostles:

Many Catholic Churches will have pictures, windows, etc. depicting different saints. But one other thing to notice is that they will often have 14 pictures or carvings on the walls throughout the church, often numbered, marking the events leading up to Jesus' death. These are called the Stations of the Cross. When it was considered unsafe to visit the Holy Land and make a pilgrimage to the locations of these events, the church declared that meditating/praying at each of these stations would be a substitute.

I've been to the LA Cathedral and if my nemory serves, these pictures are something else. But it's another thing to spot and each church does it a little differently.

And yes, the Rosary takes about 20 minutes to pray. It's considered very traditional and I don't know how many people actually do outside of the most devout. Sometimes a group will say it together in the church before/after a service.

The other prayer of the Rosary, said after the Our Father is "Glory be to the father and to the son and to the Holy Ghost/As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be/World without end, Amen." As I remember as a little kid in the 50s we were praying for the conversion of Russia, and there was supposed to be some awful secret revealed at Fatima that only the Pope knew. People still pray the rosary as kind of mantra and especially at times of grief or distress, but mostly older folks.

The oil is used for confirmation, baptism, ordination of priests, and Last Rights now called the Sacrament of the Sick. I have never seen a big vat of oil, in the Mass it is in small glass cruets, but maybe this is the oil that is blessed in the cathedral once a year before Easter and distributed to individual parishes. I've never gone to this ceremony but have heard of it.

Relics are common, supposed to remind us of the holiness of saints. In the middle ages beautiful reliquaries were made of precious stones and metals. You can see some at The Cloisters Museum in NYC. I have only once seen a saint's body preserved, St. John Neuman at a church in Philly. It was creepy but not gruesome, he just looked like a plaster form. Chaucer's pilgrims were going to visit the relics of some saint.

There is long tradition in art of depicting the apostles as the artist imagined them, or as the patrons of the painting or others the artist knew and used as models, as the fellow who did the LA cathedral apostles did.

The oils used for sacraments are blessed once a year on Holy Thursday. If there was a vat of olive oil in the back and it was a Cathedral, it could have been set there for the Chrism Mass said on Holy Thursday. It is also possible that the oil was used for the candles - Most CC's nowadays don't use regular parrafin candles anymore. They use wax shells that are refilled with oil as needed.

The oils used for sacraments are only blessed at a special mass called a Chrism Mass on Holy Thursday. Each parish brings three small vessels to be filled.

The first is filled with the Oil of Catechumens (Oleum Catechumenorum), which is used during baptism. The chest is blessed by making the sign of the cross.

The second is The Oil of the Infirm (Oleum Infirmorum), used for the sacrament of Annointing of the Sick, sometimes (incorrectly) referred to as Last Rites. Anyone ill can request a blessing from the priest at any time, and this oil is chosen. This oil is also the one used for Extreme unction, which is the blessing preceding death.

The third oil is Holy Chrism, and is a blend of Olive oil and Balsam. It is used during Holy Orders (bestowing the priesthood), also during baptism, and confirmation. It symbolizes sanctification of the individual and an indelible holy mark upon the soul.

Not just regular olive oil is ever used, and not just anyone can bless it, or distribute it. Three small vessels, one of each, is enough for an entire parish for a full year.