We are dealing with a whooping cough outbreak in southern Alberta that is expanding "exponentially" according to the medical officer of health for this region and it's mostly but not totally confined to a certain population here (Christian Reformed Dutch) that does not vaccinate and is affecting ages from babies to seniors and has the authorities very worried. There is talk of mandatory vaccinations.
Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- >There is talk of > mandatory vaccinations.
With regard to mandatory, where is liability placed? Vaccines are not without risk, according to CDC. Or VICP.
Nazis mandated medical procedures but they didn't advocate for informed consent. That model seems unlikely to take hold in the US, but mandatory means someone has to absorb liability. Vaccine manufacturers are protected from injury lawsuits so where to place risk?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2017 12:43AM by carameldreams.
Here in California, we have removed the personal belief exemption and it is working well. Vaccination rates are rising and more children are being protected from preventable illnesses.
If parents refuse, they can home school their children, but they cannot enroll them in public or private schools.
West Virginia has a similar law. I hope that more states follow California's example. It would be great to see children properly protected from these preventable diseases.
Mandatory vaccinations are a good idea, to protect children whose parents are too mired in woo to take responsibility for protecting them. My challenge to anti-vaxers is to visit an old graveyard, and see how many infants and children died of diseases that we can now prevent. One graveyard I visited had a whole family of five children who died within weeks of each other. The parents lived to be old. What hell that must have been. Even in my parent's generation in the early and mid 20th century, most families including theirs had some children who died. The risks of epidemic far outweigh the slight risks of vaccination, which anyone who accepts the word of real doctors and scientists, not quacks and celebrities, knows.
or lack of it- when emotions get applied we humans fritz fairly frequently. yeah? particularly when we are trying to protect ourselves or our family.
I still recall the fall when fairly large group of teens coughed until they threw up at a large high school in CALI I had been assigned to teach. it was called whooping cough not distemper, whooping cough. Acrylic nails flying, tattooed arms flailing muscles tensing students vomiting. coughing. Stolen asthma inhalers as victim children lost them in their backpacks prizes off to stronger gangsters puffing huffing hugging their chests, vomiting beside near their desks. I still recall a lovely young lady in a class for at risk teens, including a young man who ditched onto campus at break and off again at lunch to either attend class or eat breakfast at break and lunch for the day who had incidentally been expelled from the district continuation. This young lady was tossed into the class since her parental units both took up lovers and neither would return home to her and her teen age sister- and so she refused to go home and be sick alone. When I refused to let her vomit into the classroom trash can, I can still the image of her hand with its pink acrylic nails fly through the air as she openedthe door began coughing and vomit into the district lunch pail trash can attached to the sidewalk by concrete bolts and grey painted chain. And then she popped back inside. Teen agers were coughing hunched over desks, half attendance for a month... there was a run on germ killers, desk wipers, hand washers.
I coughed until I thought i'd die one night when I got it. my dr moved me up to unknown heights in lung medications. I wonder if I lost 1/2 inch in height or vertebrae collapsed that week coughing on the planet unable to catch my breath. Coughing until I collapsed. fevered coughing vomiting trying to breath gagging.
ok it was a collapse of the effectiveness of the whopping cough part of the vaccine everyone had had.... so they put it into ? tetanus maybe? and required everyone to catch up and get it...and all adults vacinnated to be allowed to take a baby home from the local maternity ward... well that fall nearly killed me. flailed me. inhalers failed me.
get vaccinated for that/ no argument from me. and rabies. definitely rabies- sign me up if there's another dead bat in the dog food. Glad there's shots for that, definitely.
that said, one needs to respect statisticians who noted definite side affects of certain versions of shots on identified ethnic or genetic groups. For instance in one country in northern Europe they passed on one version of an infancy shot which had significant effects on their genetic group within the norm group. So identified versions of specific shots need to be in place and not randomly given to members of norm groups that showed significant side effects. When a government that pays for universal health care services for its citizens opts for a specific version and cancels their peoples access to one version= we need to sit up and look. Guess if that's your genetic heritage you might want a different version of that vaccine as well... we need to be more sophisticated about this, instead of so all or nothing.
A six year old boy in Northern Italy died of measles. The child had leukemia and neither he nor any of his brothers or sisters were immunized by decision of the parents. He was in the ICU since March. Sad. Preventable.
John Oliver did a show on vaccination tonight. I don't think it's up on the internet yet. (Although he seems to have talked about it several times already).
As usual, he brought his refreshing blend of facts, humor, and profanity.
and so is probably the most informed course of action. Still, I can't help thinking that in coming decades or a century science will have advanced so much that current vaccinating will be seen as primitive as the blood-letting of a couple of centuries ago. Those who oppose it may intuit this.
C'mon, guess. You will be wrong. People can be skeptical about the practice itself, no religion involved. Like about the profit motive behind the movement to vaccinate. What religion is the antivaxxer Bill Maher?
Vaccines are free in Alberta for a the most part. The problem with the religious groups that are anti vax is that they bring their families into our towns and cities to shop and there lies the problem. They have their own private schools.
That is a nonsense comparison. Bloodletting was mired in superstition and had no observable benefit; vaccinations have evidence and science to establish their efficacy and disease prevention.
A more apt comparison may be the total mastectomies, down to the lymph and parts of the ribcage that were utilized to prevent the spread of cancer as a stopgap measure. At the time it was the most advanced technique to "cure" breast cancer, as the understanding of how it spread was not yet established, or a way of preventing the spread was not yet discovered.
Of course, along came radiation and chemotherapy. Now people with breast cancer can live for decades or even beat cancer with lumpectomies, chemo, etc.
Vaccinations may some day be unnecessary, or the diseases we vaccinate against may someday be more easily treatable or even completely and easily curable. (although why not just prevent so you don't have to cure?)
However, wouldn't the better option be for everyone to vaccinate, eliminate the existence of these pathogens, and make having to vaccinate in subsequent generations a non-issue because these pathogens no longer exist in any form and there would no longer be any risk of catching them?
Imagine if one were able to discover that no one on earth had measles- like the way no one has smallpox any more. Then vaccination would be unnecessary.
That seems like the better future, instead of pacifying these fucktard antivaxxer twats.
I hope this made sense.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2017 01:01AM by midwestanon.
Not so nonsensical when you consider that "It is claimed to have been the most common medical practice performed by surgeons from antiquity until the late 19th century, a span of almost 2,000 years" (Wikipedia, quoting the article on it by British Science Museum). Standard medical practice--don't question the authorities! Regardless of the reasons, "antivaxxers" are questioning authority.
Better than universal vaccination would be a paradigm shift as to the nature and causes of disease. Is it always due to some outside invasion, to be countered allopathically? That can't answer why some people 'catch' diseases and others don't. A lot more to be discovered here.
The population I referenced has also been the cause of measles outbreaks when they have traveled to Holland and back and brought measles with them and they go shopping with those infected children in the city. Their belief system is that god will protect them and their children. It's that same set of beleifs that comes into play when their unsupervised kids drown in farm ponds or fall through the ice. It's gods will don't ya know.
Antivaxxers are questioning authority in the same way in the same way people driving 80 in residential neighborhoods are questioning authority. They pose a clear threat to themselves and others.
BTW, "Superdell" Shanze was arrested for doing exactly that (very high speed residential driving, repeatedly) in Draper a few years ago. He's our local nutcase, famous for his malevolent sense of entitlement.
BTW2, allopathic is a made up word basically coined as an insult adjective, applied to medical practice by the alternative medicine crowd, just because it looks vaguely threatening.
"There are two types of alternative medicine, medicine that has not been shown to work, and medicine that has been shown to not work. There's a name for medicine that has been shown to work. It's called medicine." - Tim Minchin, "Stormy"
More nonsense. The length of time that a worthless practice is used does not lend credence to its efficacy. Did you go and read up on the big book of thinking errors and then decide to use them in your posts?
I'll say more examples and remind you that medical professionals used to believe in the "humors", which was proven completely false, that the Earth was the center of the universe, and as recently as that AIDS was commonly transferred through kissing or through contact on a toilet seat.
These were commonly held beliefs for thousands of years- or for just decades. The length of time that they were believed did not help to establish that they were scientifically accurate.
Bloodletting is still nonsense, no matter how long people believed in it. The world is full of senseless things that people used to believe in, and some still do. Those things are still just as senseless.
I am definitely in favor of people, especially small children, getting appropriate vaccinations. The scientific evidence is strong on this. But the scientific evidence is also strong that when you setup a program that allows all providers to be completely off-the-hook for bad actions then it opens up a can of worms for terrible decisions (such as vaccine overdoses galore so certain providers can have bigger volumes & bigger profits), sloppiness & poor quality, bad actors getting away with doing terrible things, and conspiracy theories getting a boost.
Imagine what would happen on our roads if the over 100 million holders of drivers licenses in the USA were to lobby Congress that they are too scared to drive cars because they worry that if they have an accident that they'll get sued and they don't want to spend money on car insurance. Thus Congress passes a law to setup the National Automobile Accident Injury Program (NAAIP) to compensate all accident victims and then drivers never have to worry about being liable for anything anymore.
Those of us in the pro-vaccine crowd really need to do more to explain why our views on appropriate vaccine schedule recommendations are good. Furthermore, this National Vaccine Injury Compensation program is a good idea. But its not in Article I Section 8, the 10th Amendment suggests its unconstitutional, and thus we do have a scientific duty to get the Constitution amended to make it legal to use the federal surpluses to have programs like this funded. That way we can ensure that such a program can be stable for the long run. Also I think there does need to be some shared responsibility by providers and vaccine manufacturers in order to better ensure they aren't advocating for decisions that are profit-driven rather than driven by what's best for society. People also tend to forget that when financial times get tough then the fact that the US government has a 20T national debt means that the people who think the government will compensate them may end up empty-handed, especially for non-enumerated programs like this, and we would be wise to act like scientists and remember that the laws of math when it comes to government finance cannot be cheated in the long run (just like with families/businesses that go bankrupt all the time) and there will be a day of reckoning if we continue to be irresponsible.
If there is a provider who is giving excessive vaccinations, that would be grounds for their state medical board to discipline them.
I have never heard of that as a grounds for disciplinary action here in California. If you have evidence that a provider is "overdosing" patients on vaccines or something else, you should report that to your state medical board or stop making things up.
I think unintentional overdosing on certain substances through vaccines is definitely a real & very quiet risk for people. The medical community does some clinical trials on the number/combination of vaccines they give small children but not enough to definitely be able to claim that they are definitely safe. You really can't tell for sure within days (and sometimes weeks) if the amount given of all the substances involved in the day's schedule of vaccines (such as thimersol & other preservatives) was more than wise for some (or many) children to receive. And most clinical studies use very limited sample sizes and depth of analysis due to the high costs associated with such studies.
That's why many parents will choose to give their kids just 1 shot per visit and have more visits in order to ensure their child gets all their shots but not too many all at once in one day. On all this its wise for them to have good discussions with competent health practitioners. Would it be wise for a parent to have their kids eat all their 3 meals for a day in one sitting and then go hungry the other 23 hours? Well that's certainly what some of these vaccine recommendations look like in stuffing the kids with shots within just a few minutes. How many parents do you think have studied up and done their research up front on the volume of each/every ingredient for such multi-poking sessions to know what's going to be put into their kids? And why they do so I believe is because of the fears that health officials have that the parents may skip many "well baby" visits and never get their kids all the vaccines they should get.
I repeat my opinion that I am a big supporter of vaccines.
an exmo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The medical community > does some clinical trials on the > number/combination of vaccines they give small > children but not enough to definitely be able to > claim that they are definitely safe. You really > can't tell for sure within days (and sometimes > weeks) if the amount given of all the substances > involved in the day's schedule of vaccines (such > as thimersol & other preservatives) was more than > wise for some (or many) children to receive.
Thimerosal hasn't been in *any* vaccines given to children since 2001. None, zero, nada. zip.
*Some* (but not all) flu vaccines still use it. No other vaccines for children do.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2017 12:15PM by ificouldhietokolob.
There is zero evidence that spreading out the time between giving vaccinations versus not doing this has any consequence. You are simply wrong.
I believe this was well-covered during the last presidential election when Ben Carson or Trump or whoever popped off saying that he thought it was a good idea for people to spread out how they give their children vaccines. There were dozens and dozens of Articles written citing dozens and dozens of sources stating that what he had said was absolute horseshit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2017 12:20PM by midwestanon.
Vaccination schedules have been thoroughly studied. They did not come about by whim. There is no evidence of some "alternate" schedule being safer or more effective. In fact, these so called "alternate" schedules just serve to delay (or deny) children getting the vaccinations they need to avoid disease in a timely fashion.
Our bodies are exposed to huge numbers of bacteria and viruses every day. The vaccination schedules do not "overburden" the immune system.
I have yet to see any evidence of medical professionals overdosing people on vaccines. As I said previously, if you have evidence of such, you should report it to the appropriate state medical board. If it were in fact happening they would be interested. Otherwise, please quit making things up!
For midwestanon and NeverMoJohn, can you provide links on the studies that support your viewpoint? Thanks in advance. I just want the truth with an open mind.
There you go. The burden of proof should not be on the people who are pointing out patently obvious information that can be researched with literally a few clicks of a mouse button. It's not like this is complicated information or hard to retrieve from the internet. I also have a hard time believing that you have never been exposed to this kind of information before, and are not just actively disbelieving it in the face of scientific fact.
I don't need to do your work for you. Perhaps you have heard of the American Academy of Pediatrics or the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta. Go to their websites. Both have as much information as anyone would need.
Yeah, this is the person in favor of vaccinations.... Yeah, right.
I will add here that the schedules and booster recommendations are based on responsiveness of the well studied immune system to the types of antigens in the vaccines, titers of the immunoglobulins, etc. For some of them, you need challenges of the antigen within certain time intervals to get the memory and titers needed for effectivity. For example, Hep B vaccines for health care workers are typically in a series and set time interval. If you miss one you may have to repeat the series to have a reliable response and titer for protection.
It's a shame that people who are willfully uninformed benefit from the rest of us who have made the world safer for them while they put the people with suppressed immune systems at risk.
Immunoglobulin levels are important for diagnostic testing algorithms and treatment decisions that save countless lives. Vaccine protocols are not hit and miss. The manufacturer's instructions need to be followed, and the FDA makes an effort to assure they are. Vaccines are studied and tested for potency, purity, efficacy.
Gawd, I can't believe I'm bothering to explain this, so I'll stop.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2017 09:59PM by dagny.
I think that you meant the HepB vaccination series. We unfortunately do not yet have a vaccine for HepC. It would be truly great if we could come up with vaccines for HepC, HIV and many other diseases. I am hoping for more vaccines, not less.
I have no respect for people who say, "Thousands of medical professionals agree" with them, but can't name a single one, or produce the proof in the form of a well documented and broad medical and scientific study. These people would make good Mormons.
Thank you evolution for allowing us to evolve enough to have vaccines. In the name of Sunsets, Flowers, and Babies, Amen.