A missionary yesterday was trying to tell me that JS was not sexual with his multiple wives.

To be precise, with the wives who were still married to other living husbands.

Can anyone give some crystal clear evidence for this.

I know Dan Vogal on YouTube has 2 videos on this subject which I am watching.

But, is there anything in official Church records, publications, etc to confirm this.

But the one thing that does not make any sense at all about this situation are these 2 things:

1) This was not in accordance with D&C 132 at all. (Which makes it a case of not practicing what you preach and those being a hypocrite).

2) If the whole purpose of polygamy was to raise up seed to the lord, how would this do that if there is no sex involved.

I known. I known, it's just more BS from the father of all BS, JS Jr.

3) other men didn't need JS to raise up seed...they could do it themselves.

Consider:

-JS knew the other men with multiple wives were popping out kids all over the place.
-That means they were having sex.
-JS did NOT chastise them to clarify they are not to have sex with the other wives.
-Just because JS didn't produce as many kids doesn't mean he wasn't having sex.

-Besides, like BY, he was into getting young new meat. Sure, they could have had a few wives they didn't screw (unattractive old ones who were there for the priesthood connection and resources), but come on, young wives are about sexuality.

Joe was either that kind of guy or he wasn't. Emma busted him in the barn with Fanny, who is rumored to have become pregnant. Emma was afraid to leave Joe unsupervised with women around. So, what is the likelihood of an old horn dog like Joe being platonic with any of his wives? Except maybe the old ones he married for money.

It doesn't really matter: if he was having sex with them he was breaking D&C 132; if he wasn't having sex with them he was breaking D&C 132; if they were already married he was breaking D&C 132; if they weren't virgins he was breaking D&C 132.

He was THE PROPHET OF THE RESTORATION and he couldn't follow D&C 132. He was wasn't just a man making a mistake here and there, he was purposefully and flagrantly violating God's direct commandments. And D&C was given directly to JS!

There's something for the missionaries to think about.

There's also the record of Nancy Rigdon, whom Joseph publicly slandered after she outed him for coming on like a dirty old man. He married his own foster daughters. Talk about one sick puppy.

Anyone who insists that JS was only interested in being sealed to these woman in the next life is only fooling themselves. There is enough evidence to conclude that JS was definitely after the sex.

The account of Sarah Pratt is just one more piece of evidence.
I have concluded that Sarah Pratt was an honest woman who refused JS polyandrous proposals and spoke out about it. John Cook Bennett who witnessed the exchange between Smith and Sarah said essentially the same things about the incident as Sarah did. I don't think it is likely they both lied.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,881013

http://www.mormonthink.com/files/Joseph%20Smith%20and%20His%20Concubines.pdf

For the married women, I think there is only evidence for Presendia Huntington and Sylvia Sessions - off the top of my head, I would have to look up what evidence that is, other than Sessions thinking her daughter might have been Smith's - now why would she think that?

It's important to realize, however, that the Mormon claim that Smith didn't have sex with his concubines is a ploy to shift the burden of proof.

In the Polygamy in Kirtland and Nauvoo essay, the Church invented a whole new concept for this, the so-called "marriage for eternity only". This is a modern invention (by Brian Hales?) for which there is no 19th-century documentary evidence. There are plenty of marriage registers, and all entries are either marriage for time, or for time & eternity.

There is no such thing as a marriage for eternity only, and anyone who says there is, should prove it. And no, the single case of Ruth Voss is not evidence that platonic plural marriage was the rule, it's evidence that it was the exception.

There is no reason to suppose that Smith’s relationships did not have a sexual component, all the more so because sexual relations can be established with reasonable certainty in about half the cases – which is quite a lot for a time in which sexuality was not openly discussed.

Marriage for eternity only.....so JS would these women in the CK and their earthly husbands would get ripped off?

Oh, and have apologists dumped the old "it was to establish loose dynastic ties" shtick, (which sounds oh-so-Christian).

It's all about family, eh?

JS put the FU in the CK.

Either God is a flake and changes his mind i.e. thou shalt not commit adultery or Joseph Smith was/is a lying cheating bastard scumbag. Besides, show me exactly the scripture in the New Testament that was a commandment for Polygamy? Allowing it to happen is NOT a commandment.
If you really just step back and ask yourself...really..polygamy...really..this is point blank adultry....just start there.....

Temple Lot Case.

The church was in a dispute with the RLDS and wanted to prove that polygamy was part of JS's religion. So Joe's wives that were still living wrote depositions explaining that their marriages were sexual.

The church documented it. Those legal records still exist and are reproduced in large part in such books as Nauvoo Polygamy. According to the women, they were real and physical marriages.

I'd like to thank the church for documenting those facts for us.

Thought about that case, also. But I don't know if any of the women who testified were also married to another man at the time that they were getting it on with Joe.

Do you (does anyone) know the answer to that? It'd be great to have the information to share with those who make claims about Joe's purity....

Good question. It's been years since I read the transcripts, so I don't know. But the testimony definitely supports the proposition that Smith was banging at least a number of his wives.

Remember, D&C 132 was constructed by Joseph Smith to imbue him with total power. The overall theme of that section is that ANYTHING is okay as long as God commands it. There is no murder or adultery, for example, if God orders Joseph Smith to do it.

Take for instance...

D&C 132:41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

In other words, LDS should stop denying Joseph Smith's likely actions since D&C 132 justifies absolutely anything and everything, so long as it was commanded by God. Now, it just happens to be very convenient that Joseph Smith was God's sole mouthpiece with absolutely NO checks and balances within the Church.

He was an adulterer and fornicator who made a play on words by adding plural marriage to his litany of commandments so he could cheat freely on his wife, Emma, without fear of retribution by his followers.

He was a free wheelin' playboy masquerading as a profit. He made victims of all his subjects.

To those married wives and single women and girls he used the line it was a commandment from God they marry him and whatever else he desired to do with them, or they'd face the wrath of God.

What a god awful lying bag of scum he was!

Why those women and men not question him or his motives more clearly is beyond me.

I believe that JS was carnal with

Teenagers
Other men's wives
Other women's husbands
Children
His siblings
Animals

Did you hear about the old rooster who sexually annoyed every animal in the barnyard? He'd have sex with anything that'd hold still.

One day he appeared dead on the ground.

A younger rooster came up laughing at him that finally he wore himself out.

The old rooster openened one eye, pointed toward the sky and said, "Shhhh! Buzzards!!"

Where did you hear or read he was carnal with his siblings, children, or animals?

That's news to me.

Out of the several bios I've read of his by unbiased sources there is no mention of that anywhere.

JS was married to at least 2 14-year-old girls. By our standards they would be considered minors.

One point no one brought up yet.

We believe in honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law. Remember these words?

So, how can you say this with a straight face when you go out and violate any civil law you chose?

This is out and out hypocrisy!

And I did point out to 2 Elders, you will not find a true church of God where you find HYPOCRISY!

I believe Kathleen was referring to his children in her post, as was I in mine.

You are right though. The 14 year old girls were still girls. So was Fanny Alger. By today's standards he'd be committing bigamy with them and statutory rape.

If not outright child molestation charges.

It's just my belief--maybe *suspicion* would have been a better word.

I base my suspicion on years and years of working with sex offenders--both juvenile and adult. Generally, by the time they are caught, the crimes they are charged with is only the tip of the iceberg.

Also, it seems only recently that victims, particularly males, come forward.

It's only my belief.

I say he was carnal.

Eliza R. Snow carried his child before Emma pushed her down the stairs killing it.

Several teen girls had to dissapear once they started showing.

Sylvia Lyons daughter Josephine was Joseph's daughter.

Heartless Wrote:

Several teen girls had to disappear once they
> started showing.

A blowhard Mason abortionist called John C. Bennett holed up in a "clinic" of logs outside Nauvoo and wielded his stainless steel hook to dispatch a good number of Holy Joe's potential offspring.

Doctor John, protector of profligate lodge-brother antics.

he was carnalivorous

YES, the LDS church has said something about sex with his wives. In the essay Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo:

"During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone.Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings."

Translation: Some of JS's marriages included the possibility of sexual relations.

The church won't come out and say it plainly, so they say it in a convoluted way.

"Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone.Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings."

Again, I have to ask: This means that in the afterlife, the Prophet JS gets your wife, and you are stuck alone for for eternity?

It's all about family.

Like I said above, eternity-only sealings are a 21st-century invention. There is no record of a single such sealing, nor of any Mormon from that era making a distinction between "for time & eternity" and "for eternity only".

The only distinction they made is the one in D&C 132, the same one that is the only distinction in Mormon theology today, i.e. between a marriage for time, and for time & eternity.

It's nothing but a blatant lie. You don't have to believe me, both Quinn and Compton went through the marriage records with a fine tooth comb and came up with nothing of the sort.

Mormon polygamy and lying go hand in hand, always have, always will.

Joe only had One Wife, her name was Emma.

The others were concubines.

If he didn't have sex with them, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by explaining that the marriages were only spiritual, not involving sex, and there would have been no reason to hide the marriages. You can learn a lot about what Joseph Smith thought about his own behavior by noting what he chose to obfuscate or conceal from the public. Same goes for treasure digging. He downplayed his involvement in his history now contained in the Pearl of Great Price, indicating that the practice was not widely accepted in his time, contrary to the church essays.

It may not be 100% provable that Joseph Smith had sex with his other wives. The question you should be asking is whether his apostles were having kids from multiple wives. If it was ok for them, then it must have been ok for Joseph to do it, and the missionary couldn't rationally use the argument of Joseph not having sex with his wives as a defense for his character.

yah, uhhhh, here you go !!!

this fact based presentation pretty much obliterates fallacy based MORmON claims that attempt to justify Joseph Smith wild penchant for sin and then using edicts from Jesus as an attempted excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjao6DiN2DY

the entire matter is absolutely absurd if any genuine inspection and logic is applied to it.

According to MORmON DoctUrine, the ONLY acceptable allowance for polygamy is breeding. (research it !!!! ) SO Joe is commanded by lower head lord MORmON Jesus to be the point man/lead man/ exemplar for instituting a latter day polygamy/ breeding program. Then Joe's selection of plural wives is so questionable that after the fact in the interest of attempting to salvage Joe's devastated reputation, MORmON apologist have to claim that (Pervert) Joe SMith was not having sex with the women that Joe married .....as the point man in a divinely mandated breeding program.

Yah, that makes sense!!! to a real MORmON !!!!!!

We was taking one new wife a month (every 28 days?) toward the end of his life. Some TBMs would say that Joe was removed as a prophet because of this, but prior to his downfall he was a real prophet. Of course history indicates he was always a scoundrel.

If he needed a new tang every month, he may have been into "sexual magic", believing it gave him extra powers.

(Pervert) PRofit Joseph Smith's rabid sexual appetite did empower him and did lead Joe a huge revelation -his best ever and the ONLY one that he ever really had.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQrgLz0tpVA

Tom Cruise was introduced to the practice of sex magick in Kubrick's epic Eyes Wide Shut.

When Sarah Pratt was propositioned by Joe Smith, she went to Lucinda Harris and complained of Joe's behavior. Lucinda Harris was married to George Harris, and her response was that she and Joseph had been doing the horizontal mambo for quite some time, and it was no big deal. In essence she told Sarah Pratt to get over it, and that was that. I don't believe for a minute the church's line that Joe wasn't sexually involved with other men's wives, I believe he was, and there's plenty of evidence to support this fact.

Something I heard from a Community of Christ apostle whose info I trust: historically there have been 12 LDS families that have claimed biological descent from JSJr. (Not including the line that kept leadership of RLDS until recently.)

Five of those families have been tested with modern DNA techniques and they came back negative -- No Smith descent in spite of the family rumors.

Of course all that proves is that pregnancy didn't happen those five times. There still could have been sex...

Who paid for the DNA testing? TSCC could buy any results they want.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who paid for the DNA testing? TSCC could buy any
> results they want.


Well, here's a corroborating source. It comes from Deseret News, so take it for what it's worth (it does seem to match the info I got from the CoC apostle.)

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700150651/DNA-solves-a-Joseph-Smith-mystery.html

It also seems to match another piece of the story I also heard: not all of the purported Smith descendents can be tested. The tests available look specifically for genetic markers on the Y chromosome, so it requires a direct male line from Smith's time to the present. The seven families that weren't tested -- wanted to be tested, but they couldn't under this technique since the alleged polygamous Smith children were female. Take it for what it's worth.

Ugo Perego is the "go to" guy for mormon DNA studies, so the question arises: Is he *really* an unbiased scientist looking at the evidence, or ignoring any leads "anti" evidence?

The other thing that should be obvious, is that the more proof that JS did *not* father extra children comes to light, the more proof that he disobeyed a direct commandment from God to "raise up righteous seed."

So, while trying to show that JS was a stand up guy, TSCC shoots itself in the foot by showing that he didn't follow D&C 132 and therefore "If ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned."

I'm sure you're all sick of me bringing this up all the time.

So my choices are a bought and paid for TBM so called DNA expert or.....

Great Grandma knowing who came in her and when.

Hmmmmm. I chose Great Grandma!

Option 3. Maybe Joseph didn't father the kids Emma had!

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

"After Emma opposed plural marriage, Joseph was placed in an agonizing dilemma, forced to choose between the will of God and the will of his beloved Emma. He may have thought Emma’s rejection of plural marriage exempted him from the law of Sarah. Her decision to “receive not this law” permitted him to marry additional wives without her consent. "

Heavenly Father has sure blessed us in the 21st century with feature-rich mobile internet devices. In conjunction with the network of missionaries & local leaders backed up by a hierarchy with "continuing revelation" and a Church that is true, i.e. being always from Day One so straightforwardly honest, transparent, and truthful on everything - the haters of truth don't stand much a chance anymore at trying to deceive people. If some pesky critic makes some claim that opposes the Church then a sincere seeker of the truth can pull out their smartphone, say a few keywords, and watch as the magic of voice-controlled internet searches brings back a plethora of links. And the best part of all is how they can say "chat Mormon missionaries" and up comes a link to where they can start chatting with missionaries and get all questions answered with honest truthful official answers from the missionaries & their higher-ups all the way to the FP-12 in real-time:) As truth-seekers read/ponder all these things then as they think "wow what a super honest and transparent Church and I want to know more" then they may start to pray for confirmation that the Church is true. In the old days people would take the missionary lessons and read/ponder very little before they start praying like sign seekers trying to find some "miracle" to convince them either way on whether or not the Church really is so truthful/honest. Now with more information and potential to validate truthfulness up-front I think it saves a lot of time on sign-seeking activities. Now if someone were to actually chat with missionaries as I described above and not get official answers quickly then I could well imagine that they could get some "this Church is deceitful and not honest" doubt in their minds and choose some other path in life other than blessed assimilation into full obedience to the Brethren on everything. Such an incomplete approach by the missionaries and their higher-ups would be unthinkable in a true Church as such representatives would certainly be the ones to blame, and not the ones who sought the truth, for their slothfulness. Remember that its called "continuing revelation", not "delayed action revelation".

So what is the official Church teaching on whether or not Joseph Smith was carnal with his multiple wives? Well I suggest you find a smartphone and do a voice control "contact Mormon missionaries" search and quickly get the official truth. I bear testimony that as surely as the Church is true then you won't get the runaround :) Otherwise my credibility is toast :(

Guess what? Your credibility IS toast.

Salt Lake has already admitted to willful acts of deception for over 60 years,

Deception is a trait of Satan and not of God. Remember these words? Thou shall not bear false witness? Truth is a trait of God and only the guilty has anything to fear from the truth.

And ANY church that violates the 10 Commandments or has hypocrites as its leaders or has liars as leaders is no church of God much less than Jesus Christ.

Ever heard of the story of the Boy That Cried Wolf? The moral of this story is that if you tell a lot of lies there will come a time when NOONE will believe ANYTHING you say even if you're telling the truth.

There's an old saying: where there's smoke there's fire!
And there is a lot of smoke surrounding Salt Lake and its lies!

Bishops are leaving the LDS Church!
BYU Professors are leaving the Church.
Apologists are leaving the Church.
CES directors are leaving the Church.
Direct descendants of Church Presidents (like Sandra Tanner) are leaving the Church.
Around 10,000 members a month are leaving the Church.
About 1/3 of all youth raised in the Church leave.
About 2/3 of all returned missionaries leave the Church.
Many missionaries don't even get 1 baptism. Not 1 for 2 years of their lives!
Missionaries are getting killed more often than we think.
Africans that convert to the Church leave once they find out how racist the Book of Mormon is.
The RLDS has said for 2 decades that the BOM IS not historical.
The RLDS has completely rejected the Book of Abraham.
In one picture in the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith could not even tell the difference between a male figure and a female figure. This destroyed JS Jr credibility with me completely.
JS Jr never lived the Word of Wisdom. (Nor did Brigham Your for that matter) They were hypocrites!
Polygamy was never legal in the US. More Hypocrites! (We believe in obeying, sustaining, and upholding the law.)
Jesus also stated: Marriage does not exist in marriage (Matt 22:23-30). This is an absolute statement as well. It's not conditional. If Jesus meant that marriage did not exist in heaven UNLESS you get sealed on the earth (conditional statement), he would have stated it this way.
The Hoffman Documents!
Read the Journal of Discoursers (edited by Brigham Young) for what was taught in the early days of the Church! This was an official publication of the Church then just like the Ensign is now.
And I can go on and on.

The evidence is scant that JS was carnal with his other wives. There is little evidence of him fathering children from them other than Emma. However, to think he wasn't doing it with these other women is naïve at best.

That's true, that there was little evidence. However, little evidence is expected. There was such a thing as condoms even back then.

Joseph Smiths polygamy came out during the Temple Lot Case. Some of Joseph Smiths wives were forced to testify under oath that they did have sex with Joseph Smith in a polygamous marriage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Iine67CHlw

Temple Lot Case Transcript: https://archive.org/details/TempleLotCaseTranscript
Church History Library copy: https://eadview.lds.org/findingaid/MS%201160/
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Lot_Case
Wives of Joseph Smith: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Melissa Lott Willes admitted to spending the night twice in the same bed as Joseph Smith when she was just 19 years old.

Joseph B Noble admitted to marrying Joseph Smith to Louisa Beaman and that he saw them spend the night together twice. Once at Joseph Smith's house and the second time at his own house.

Emily Dow Partridge Young was asked during the Temple Lot Case, "Did you ever have carnal intercourse with Joseph Smith?" She answered, "Yes sir."

These testimonies are in the Church History Library under the Temple Lot Case! Its in their own documents!