I have a theory about sexual perverts. It centers on the premise that the body never forgets. It can handle serial monogamy, but multiple partners at the same time confuses it. What I think is that having multiple sexual partners is a means of escape. Joseph couldn't live with himself, so to help along his self denial he turned to adultery.

He became a law unto himself to avoid the "adultery" label, but that's what it was actually. Not just getting a little on the side, but helping himself to the whole candy store. But, delving into the criminal mind isn't my point. It's more about human nature.

People do what they do to fill a need. His need was self denial. His need was insatiable and it grew until it killed him. Say what you want about old Joe, at least he had the common decency to die. The modern apostles, not so much.

I'm not a psychologist, nor did I stay at Holiday Inn Express last night, but I have wondered if there's a part of the brain that connects/confuses religion and sex; if JS was not a pure con-man, and actually had delusions of being a religious leader, it could explain his hanky-panky. Obviously there are news reports once in a while (and all through history) of other religious charlatans who not only can't keep in their pants, but make it a part of their religion.

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
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> I'm not a psychologist, nor did I stay at Holiday
> Inn Express last night, but I have wondered if
> there's a part of the brain that connects/confuses
> religion and sex;

What do you mean by connection? Because there are areas in the brain that light up doing pleasurable activities, and it can be praying, religious ceremonies, or sex.

Exactly. Pleasure centers of the brain. Although there are stories of cult leaders who make sexual activity a "rite" (Hello Warren Jeffs and the temple bed)--now, for those of us who make love/have sex with reckless abandon (cue up 'Animals') it's one thing, but what goes on in the mind of a man who tells his followers that sex is a sacred rite, similar to holy communion, and it's not just between two people, but there's an unseen shy daddy watching every move?

At some point I think that even JS was pulling a willful con, he became something like 'Kagemusha', a simple criminal who is hired to impersonate a powerful war-lord, and ends up acting like him and believing he can *be* him; JS aspired to be a general and president of the USA--there's powerful psychological problems right there: from money-digging con-man to potential "king" of America....

O/T but this reminds me of a short story, title and author long forgotten, about an shy office-worker nobody who is convinced by a medium that he is the reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte. So he acquires pictures of and books about the emperor, begins to model his own words, delivery, and behaviors in the office on Napoleon,and rises to the top in a few years.

Then one day he reads in the paper that the medium has been imprisoned for fraud. But by that time, he has remade himself so much in the image of the greatest commander in modern history that it no longer matters that he isn't the reborn Napoleon.

So I think that Joseph Smith, like many another of these guys (almost always guys), first put on the costume of a religious prophet (seer and revelator) as part of an act, and then found it fitting better and better until the costume became his everyday attire.

He would've had to kill his conscience to do what he did, and say it was in the name of God.

He blackmailed his consorts by telling them if they didn't subject themselves to him completely they'd face the wrath of destroying angels. (His wife Emma especially.)

I doubt he was as sincere a believer as he professed to be.

He was seriously deluded by his own narcissism. He set himself up on a pedestal comparing himself to God and Jesus (he beat Moses out per his own ratings.) Only a narcissist would do something like that.

An adulterous, lying, cheating scumbag had to have killed his conscience long before his physical demise. All those affairs would've damaged his psyche/soul in addition to having no conscience for his crimes against society.

Armchair psychology aside, the modern church is not a creation of Joseph Smith. His is RLDS, a tiny spec of a church that kinda remained true to his original vision.

The modern church is the product of a megalomaniac who saw an opportunity and ran with it. Brigham young. Under his bloody reign, he wiped out two thirds of the population of the state of Utah. About 70,000 Timpanogos people between 1850 and 1880, and right proud of it. The 1880 census lists Utah's entire population as 40,273. How many orphans saw their parents die under his watch? Even Pol Pot couldn't exterminate this fraction of his population.

BY had a slash and burn policy. If he couldn't have it, nobody could. He burned Winter Quarters just so the neighboring tribes wouldn't have the use of 600 perfectly good dwellings. People could have kept warm and dry with their families. No, let them freeze.

So, this is TSCC's legacy. Paying lip service to humanity while secretly despising it. Free agency is only good if you obey us, and if you don't, have fun in hell. But, just as with Joseph, you can't escape the long arm of the law. Not even William Law.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
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> I have a theory about sexual perverts. It centers
> on the premise that the body never forgets.
What do you define as a "sex pervert?"

It can
> handle serial monogamy, but multiple partners at
> the same time confuses it. What I think is that
> having multiple sexual partners is a means of
> escape.

I'm curious what research you've done to make this decision or if it's merely a value judgement. I'd like to see what research, if so. After having read J. Budziszewski's book on his views about sexuality, I want to see if there is anything from the "traditional" side that has common ground with the modern sensibilities and research. Human sexuality is quite varied and not everyone is of the monogamous variety, many couples are perfectly happy in the world of swingers (there are a lot of rules in that world, too). Others have no desire to settle down with one person and would be unhappy in a "vanilla" or "traditional life." Nature loves variety, society does not.


Joseph couldn't live with himself, so to
> help along his self denial he turned to adultery.
>
> He became a law unto himself to avoid the
> "adultery" label, but that's what it was actually.
> Not just getting a little on the side, but helping
> himself to the whole candy store. But, delving
> into the criminal mind isn't my point. It's more
> about human nature.

JS was a psychologically pathological man and I agree with others who say he likely had NPD, and I think possibly of the malignant variety. He felt entitled to abuse and use women (and anyone else that fell for his lies and manipulation) for his own ends and probably felt quite justified in it. IDK if you ever had experience with people with NPD, especially of the malignant variety, they are looking for a way to be superior to and exercise power over others. JS just happened to find his marks using religion as an excuse to abuse other people.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:

> JS was a psychologically pathological man and I
> agree with others who say he likely had NPD, and I
> think possibly of the malignant variety.

NPD could mean "Nauvoo Priapic Disorder" and JS seems to have been born with or contracted a terminal case of such.

Priapic refers to a most malignant and chronic manifestation.

Though it made him quite the stud with them bevy of girls.

elderpopejoy Wrote:
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> Though it made him quite the stud with them bevy
> of girls.

Yeah, only if you conflate stud with sexual predator.

All this with just a 3rd grade education!!!

I have a theory.

He did it because he could. I do a lot of things "because I can" and it's as simple as that. Not as abhorrent as JS but....uh...some sick and selfish things, nonetheless. You see the opportunity and say, "What the hell, I can" and you do it.

It does beg the question, would we be corrupted by absolute power? And how far would we go?

What gets me is the whitewashing. Does Mormonism really have to lie its ass off to be a viable religion? Or is that a dumb question?

I mean, the church could flourish if it owned up to all of the mistakes it has made. Mistakes can be learned from. They could admit that it's okay to be human and it's okay that all of the church leaders were just ordinary guys (or guys callous enough to make unsavory decisions) who make mistakes just like everyone else. And pigs can fly.

I disagree. The problem the LDS Church has is that it claims to be restored and have direct communication with God. Admitting specific mistakes would create doubt about the leaders' ability to really know the mind of God.

Not a dumb question at all. It is true. I have believed the lies for 40 years. I am college educated and fell for a lifetime of blind faith of what I was told and NEVER questioned a thing? Faith is the key here. They tell you believe and have faith. All we know is all we know and don't think anything else. No need to!

I'm sorry they hurt you kitty. Maybe at one time, blind devotion had a place in your life. That kind of devotion is a tremendous responsibility on the receiving end. It's just too much for any human being to handle. Maybe that's the lesson in all this. Putting people on pedestals is bad for everyone.

True love is not self sacrifice. It's accepting who you are, warts and all. It's accepting each other and respectfully accommodating our disagreements. The church will always be a purifying crucible, but not the way the members think. They will suffer through it until they evolve past the BS.

My journey out of Mormonism began when I decided to be the last one in heaven. Let everyone who could be redeemed go first, and I'll shut the door. At that point, my world changed in a way that I didn't need Mormonism to be true. Maybe I just didn't fit anymore. I saw the selfishness behind the mentally. I saw the manipulation and the lies. I saw the ways they tried to crush my soul, to take my innocence. I saw it all, and it was ugly. And, I discovered it was nothing personal. Just business, for money.

And, I found God again. But this time, not in a little tiny box. I found God everywhere. Inside everyone and everything. Inside me. I didn't need miracles. All of life was a miracle. Existence is the miracle of the Now. I don't have to understand it. I only have to love it, because love is the only truth there is. So in that sense the church can be true, but if you love a lie, heaven help you.

Thank you for sharing, Baby. Why did you want to be the Last one in heaven? I didn't know I was living a lie until very recently. THAT is the kicker here for me. My brain was deluded for days listening to testimonials of ex-mormons and why? I truly lived in a shell of an existence here trying to be perfect in every way possible. My Molly life was busy to not have time to listen or even know to listen to anti stuff. I wonder if I should go to the temple one more time while I still have an active recommend and just sit and listen to see what I hear? It expires next month.

I figured it's what Jesus would do. It felt right. I learned a lot in dreams. For example, once I saw a molly driving a van full of kids backwards and having the feeling that she was subservient. It must be hard for you emotionally to have your eyes opened to all this. But this is the road to real compassion and true freedom. Life is a beautiful gift. I recently changed my mind on what I wanted for the world. I wanted heaven on Earth. But, heaven is already here. It was here all the time. Peace on Earth is what I want for the world. So, maybe I should put down my gun and stop taking pot shots at an organization that is doing itself in. I have better things to do.

It's not anti Mormon, it's anti stupid. Granted, some have axes to grind, but can you blame them?

I think you should go to the temple one last time, to see and feel it objectively. People are there because they love the place. That's how a place is holy. Doctrine has nothing to do with it. If that place still feels peaceful, maybe it wasn't all delusion. The world is full of holy places. Ones that weren't established by a con man.

So you're saying it's a den of vipers. Yeah, let's go with that. They surely know some claims are false. In order to govern an organization of that size, on some level they must know that all claims are false and they don't view false claims as a problem. That's my problem with the church personally. How can institutional lying (real whoppers) not be a problem if truth is the purported goal? If truth is not the goal, the true evil of it becomes apparent. Call me crazy, but I'm not okay with evil.

Joseph Smith was a prophet. Not of the restoration, but of chicanery and mayhem. I would have to be an idiot to sustain that.

Babyloncansuckit, were you ever a member of the church?

Yes, I was all in. Can you tell?

And just to clarify, speaking against the church is exactly what the church taught me to do, and what feels right to me. I didn't choose this. The church chose me. It came into my life at a young age and began its work of destruction. But, it made itself a part of me so here we are. I've made peace with Mormonism. Now I make war. Brigham would be proud.

You aren't ok with evil but, what about Stan?

Opposition in all things. Evil is the yin/yang of the universe. On Star Trek they ran into evil out there in the universe. is time with that show. I know- a tv show, but gene roddenberry was way ahead of time thinking up this stuff. Probably not exclusive to earth. I never believed we were all there is in the universe. Evil destroys Energy, but it takes on new forms. U know energy can't be created or destroyed it just takes on new forms. Like when we die I always thought our life energy that leaves our bodies when we die goes back to the great collective consciousness of energy, then gets redistributed when a baby is born. The spark of life. Evil as we perceive it has a purpose.

It comes with power. A powerful man has women who are attracted to his power, position, or resources.

So, he figures he deserves to do all those women a favor. :-] He feels entitles and makes rules to justify it.

You have to respect the powerful man who doesn't cash in on this perk.
As for women who want the alpha man enough to share one- I can't understand their lack of self esteem.

Stupid humans!

Its not specifically a horney Joseph phenomenon as it generally relates to power its relationship to sex. We are all driven by evolution, and this is simply an example of the dominance hierarchy as it relates to getting your hump on...

Power is an aphrodisiac.

President JF Kennedy reputedly had sex with a new woman almost every day of his presidency, and even Franklin D Roosevelt had numerous affairs.

Roughly one in twelve Asian men, for instance, possess a Y chromosome which can be traced back to a single sexually-prolific individual who lived in Central Asia around 1200 AD – almost certainly Genghis Khan.

Sex and power are linked as they both cause a surge in the hormone testosterone in both sexes. Testosterone in turn ramps up activity of the chemical messenger dopamine in the brain’s ‘reward network’. Everything we experience as pleasure or reward - from being paid a compliment through drinking a cocktail to having sex – has its effects via this dopamine-rich brain system. And power is another incredibly strong activator of the reward network.Power and sex are like a drug in the brain...

Keep reading. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-winner-effect/201211/petraeus-sex-and-the-aphrodisiac-power-0

I remember a couple of decades ago when Wilt Chamberlain (?), the retired basketball superstar, caused a little stir in the media, and caused some people to pull out their pocket calculators (remember those?), when he claimed that he'd had sex with "ten thousand women" during his career and post-career.

As I recall it just seemed like an impossible claim unless he had done nothing else other than to go to games during the season, but still.... celebrity, wealth, virility do have their effects.

Sometimes we overthink these things. Joseph Smith was a sexual predator his whole adult life. In the last two years of his life he discovered a way to pick up his perverse game and not only get away with it with women, including his wife, but justify his behavior with his male associates. If not for John C. Bennett and William Law he probably would have packed up the whole Nauvoo town and moved out West to continued his con game. It's as simple has that.

Okay, but what's with all the denial? The church knows it will lose power if it stops lying? What kind of power is that, but the kind that comes from Stan himself? Sheesh, we should bill the church for all the free advice we give it.

Who is Stan? I am new here and missed something.

Stan is our name for Satan. We're on a casual basis here, being under his power and all.

Ok. Still learning things. Thanks.

Joseph Smith was the 19th century equivalent of a debauched rock star or movie star. Women found him fascinating, and he worked out a way to get what he wanted. He was like a kid in a candy store. He didn't much care if the women got hurt along the way. It was all about him. At least music and film stars who engage in such behavior don't pretend to be morally upright individuals.

The Smith family (Joseph Jr's parents,siblings, and himself) were very poor. Joseph Jr didn't want to do honest hard work to help the family, so he resorted to treasure hunting to try to get money. He soon realized that starting up another religion and getting people to believe in him and pay money would give him not only a more comfortable life, but also some power along with it. He soon thought he was the best thing to come along since buttered bread and soon thought that any female he wanted was fair game. D&C 132 was something he came up with to bitch-slap Emma into going along with what HE wanted.