So I'm starting to see that when push comes to shove, people start seeing the church for what it really is, they have two options. They can either leave the church like most of us did or they become really fierce apologists.

This is really fascinating that because I will read something by an apologist and it makes me really really angry. Like, "How can they be so naive!"

But I realized today that I or really any of us could have ended up down that path. It was just one choice that made me decide to leave the church instead of continue to defend it. And that's all that's different.

I don't want to hate anymore. I hated everyone outside of the church while I was a member and I don't want to hate everyone in it or who's defending it now. They are just trying to do what they truly believe their God wants them to. They believe us to be the worst kind of people. To them, we are apostates that denied the Holy Ghost and committed the sin next to murder. It's no wonder they are so upset with us.

I think what I want to do is start forgiving and stop hating. If I learned anything in the church it was that Jesus forgave people. And I don't even believe in Jesus anymore but I still think that's a good way to live your life.

I've wasted enough of my life being controlled and manipulated bu a religion that ended up not really caring about me. But I'm not going to blame the members anymore. They just don't know. And most of us were in their shoes at one time or another. Completely blinded by the need to be sealed or prove to God that we were worthy or something.

I think the anger is completely justified when we leave. But I don't think it should be directed at members or apologists but instead toward the entire organization. It is corrupt and foul but I don't believe that all the members are as well.

They are still asleep and don't want to be woken up. And it's not my job to do it.

Just thought I would share what I was thinking about today.
I hope the universe shines a little brighter each day you find more of yourself

Sounds pretty good.

I'd just like to point out, though, that you don't have to "hate" to point out when someone's arguments are flawed, when they're being dishonest, or when they're being ignorant (that's not an insult, just means unaware of facts).

In fact, pulling out the hate -- and calling the person you're arguing with names, calling them "evil," using their supposed bad traits to counter their arguments, etc. -- is a fallacy. If you do that, YOUR arguments are worthless. Just like theirs.

I don't really see the need to "forgive" people indoctrinated in the church from birth who are ignorant of facts, or who are afraid to find out facts, or even those who simply deny them. They're products of the system that produced them, and more often than not they simply don't know any better. I DO feel the need to point out where they're being ignorant, dishonest, or fallacious. What they do with that is up to them.

As to actions they've done that harm other people *because* of their idiotic beliefs and lack of knowledge...that's another story. I kinda think my "forgiveness" is irrelevant. It won't change anything that's happened in the past. And all I really care about is trying to get them to not do those things anymore in the future.

Best on your own journey. ;)

People who don't choose to forgive ignorance are just hurting themselves. What age were you when you finally stopped being ignorant? Why'd you do it? Unless you did it before puberty hit, you aren't better than anyone who hasn't hopped out of the status quo of TSCC.

I'm with you.

I'm just like them, and maybe I used to be worse. Good for you forgiving them. Take a deep breath now because you're going to get mad again someday. Let forgiveness carry you through it when it comes.

Hate isn't a bad thing as long as you don't get stuck there. It's natural, and nature isn't bad. There's so much to learn from leaving Mormonism that you'll spend the rest of your life on it. Lots about human nature and maybe yourself. People want to believe the best. They want to be good. That makes them targets for sociopaths.

One thing that keeps people in and active is not wanting to be excluded from family events such as weddings. Since "coming out" as a non-believer I have stood outside the temple at numerous family weddings, including my own daughter's, and remained seated during blessings and ordinations. It is uncomfortable, to say the least.

I agree in a way. I don't think apologists are naive as much as they are afraid. They're terrified to admit doubts. Part of that fear is based on believing doubts will send them reeling into outer darkness. Another part of that fear is like standing at the door in a plane before jumping out because you don't know if the parachute will work. I can't help but believe part of them wants to try the doubt, but once they try, can they ever go back? In a way, it's like when Jesus said to come out onto the water with him. It takes a lot of courage to step out of the boat when you've been told your whole life that you'll drown. Whether or not they walked on water, they didn't drown.
Because of that fear they are refusing to face, they're different from you and I. They're looking at anti-Mormon literature so that they can refute it, not because they are curious. It could tell them that Joseph Smith was gay, and they'd have an answer. They are not looking to face their fears. They're looking to fight against them. We chose to look at the fear and not only accept it, but wrap it in a warm embrace. They have yet to really peek behind the curtain to see that the Wizard is just a man. That's why we couldn't have ended up where they are. We peeked with genuine intent to see.
Even though I think they're very different from you, I do agree that they don't deserve to be hated. Maybe the church deserves to be hated in the same way that governments or corporations do, but really, I'm not sure that's worth it either. It's all a part of life to see these big theme park attractions for what they are, sketchy death traps that offer just enough distraction to make us forget we're all going to die one day and can't know what happens next.
I commend you on your journey to forgive. It's hard and you won't be perfect. I'm glad you're trying. Forgiveness feels much better than hate.

Even outside of Mormonism, there's plenty of stupid to go around. You get a little extra practice dealing with it. If you can love the GAs in spite of themselves, you'll have accomplished something.

This is really well said and resonates with me. Thank you for putting into words something so personal, complex, and common to many of us.