The thread about "Kolobians" closed before I could reply to honestone, who took exception to our discussion about terminology for Mormons and Christians.
Thread Reference:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,199088Jan, the OP, said:
"I LOVE the trend I see on the Board to referring to The Faithful as "Kolobians". Much more diverting than "TBM" although, admittedly, harder to type. And so scathingly accurate."
So, we're all sitting around here "mocking" Mormons by lately taking to referring to them as "Kolobians" (a term coined by the poster known as chulotc is snarky, I believe).
In a lighter spirit, just because it's a holiday weekend up here in Canada (and because my hockey team is one win away from the Stanley Cup finals!) I said:
"I'm waiting for chulotc to christen Christians with a new name to match his Kolobian zinger for the Mormons."
Discussion and suggestions ensued.
I didn't really have a higher purpose for my post and I was aware that I'd have to tread carefully or would perhaps be in danger of stepping well over the mock line, which could be tricky for a Christian. Just for once (or twice) in nearly a decade of posting at RfM, I wrote something without analyzing the heck out of it three ways from Sunday, and in a lighter vein than my usual heavy topics of polygamy, religion, attempts at being supportive to those enduring life crises, and all the vagaries of the dynamics of this busy, populous board. I even wrote "I'm not intending to mock", in case I was misunderstood. What other posters write I cannot control.
I was surprised that a Christian poster, honestone, has apparently seen the thread or at least some of the replies as "Christian bashing". Too, I am gobsmacked that she would label it as "bullying".
I know these are perennial topics around here - where does discussion end and "bullying" begin, how does RfM accommodate the diversity of posters and leave everybody feeling they've been heard and supported and respected, etc.
honestone wrote:
"I am sorry you [not sure who she is referring to here], nightengale, and others are choosing to go this route. If this board is going to turn to "pick on the Christians, ridicule the Christians," I shall find other places to spend my precious time. But you all enjoy your bullying. Just thought the moderators did not go for that sort of thing but perhaps I am wrong."
NG: This board isn't TURNING INTO "pick on the Christians" - it's always been this way! [jk]
You will have to explain how this lighthearted thread (absent any egregious "picking" imho) can be characterized as "bullying". I just don't see it.
The moderators will have to speak for themselves specifically on this one, if they wish, but they don't appear to have time on every occasion that someone queries how they walk the divide between Christians and non-Christians here. There was a recent thread about CZ's (Admin) explanation that RfM is "Christian-friendly, not Christian-safe".
I find the discussions and themes here go in cycles and at various seasons (eg: Christian holy days) it can veer off even the "friendly" side of things (or it feels that way to Christians).
I find that the biggest contributor to the clash is the expectation of many Christian posters that "respect" and "friendly" mean non-Christians are going to be stifled, either by themselves or by Admin. In fact, Eric (Board Founder) has stated just the opposite. He has explained that as non-Christians are so stifled, in his experience, (largely to do with the area where he lives) he is pleased to provide a venue where people can say what they like, within the bounds of his guidelines for the board.
If you think that someone really crosses the line (often it's obvious when that occurs but frequently it's subjective, thereby difficult to call, as I have observed through the years) you can report the post to Admin. If they leave it standing, it can help you to learn how they moderate and what is or is not acceptable here.
honestone continues:
"I prefer conversation that is adult in nature on such a serious topic as RfM. It appears that for some mocking all religion is what floats your boat. So if it's the way it is going to be day after day I shall pass. My daughter being Mormon is enough of the pain I wish to endure."
Yeah, but see, this board cannot cater to every individual's preferences. It has its own mandate and the guidelines are there to help to achieve that. It's up to board participants to find their own way through all the threads and posts and take what they want and need from it all, leaving what they're not interested in or don't like. The reason is that we're all different (unlike how Mormonism and other more fundamentalist-type religious groups treat us). For instance, you see bullying on that name thread, I see lighthearted banter. This entire huge diverse group is not usually going to agree unanimously on this type of question as it is just so subjective and up to individual tastes and sensitivities. No-one can possibly control that, or moderate it so that everyone is satisfied.
The obvious answer is that each poster has to navigate their own way through and choose which threads are of interest or use to them and which ones they don't care for, for whatever variety of reasons. The answer is not for Admin to control us all with a heavy hand or for everyone to conform to just one idea of what is "right", as there is no "right" for 100% of us. After our experiences in repressive religions, like Mormonism but also some other Christian-based groups, many have come to learn the long, hard way that the world is chaotic, life is ever-changing and not much is 100% black or white. This board in ways is a microcosm of that life lesson and that is good for a lot of people who pass through here. Easy to say that life is full of colours, not just black/white, but hard to instantly accept and change if your background to date has denied the gray, never mind the variety of colours. RfM is not about the preferences of one individual or group and neither is community life. This reality is good to know, no?
honestone continues:
"Recovery from Mormonism doesn't mean BASH all Christians."
Except maybe for some people it does! Recovery includes learning, perhaps for the very first time, how to express one's own opinion, not the group speak of the repressive religious group that one has been a part of, for many RfMers since birth. It can be immensely healing and freeing to say what you really think about a subject, rather than what you were taught and expected to think or say. Think of former Mormons who were instructed by their leaders to think whatever they want (after having expressed doubts or questions) but just don't TELL anyone! How satisfying, how gratifying, how healthy to come here and tell us exactly what they think, however they wish to express it.
Again, Erik K has said he specifically wants to have an environment where people DO NOT have to squelch themselves, especially not due to Christian sensitivities about what we should talk about and how we should say it.
That is definitely a recovery need for many, many RfM posters. Christians are welcome here. A lot can be gleaned from interacting with a variety of people, I have found. But it is not a little coffee klatch where everybody makes nicey-nice, especially not to, about or for Christians. That is just a fact about this board that will not change. If someone can't accept that, then it is a good idea to go elsewhere, as many have, and as you have suggested you will. There are many other groups that discuss things differently, groups where people are at different stages of recovery (RfM tends to have a lot of newly exited folks, so the needs and topics and conversations are not the same as in other groups), and groups that are specifically for Christian ex-Mormons, etc. I think it's healthy to visit as many as you can find and get what you want and need from each one, without expecting one to be the answer to all that one may be looking for. Certainly, for Christian "fellowship", I'd look elsewhere than RfM, and that is not a weakness or flaw of RfM, just the reality of how things are.
honestone:
"Some people are as intolerant of religious believers as they are of gays and lesbians. So happy I am not."
I don't really understand this part. Do you mean that the "intolerant" person doesn't like believers or gays or lesbians or that "religious believers" are intolerant of gays and lesbians or ??
Again, I don't see the Christian/atheist discussions here as being "intolerant". I don't think that most posters intend to insult, mock or hurt anyone who may be reading their opinions (some do, it seems, but not a majority). I see plenty of understanding and support, despite differing beliefs. That is a beautiful thing.
If you are seeing or feeling "bashing" and "bullying" (and especially in the thread referenced, which was far more friendly than many I've seen) I respectfully suggest that it could be the filter through which you view the world (as is common with Christians) and your own sensitivities that are unknown to others and cannot realistically be catered for in this environment.
I'm not criticizing you. It's just that I have been through it, being so swaddled in a church environment for many years and going straight from there to here, thin skin 'n all. When I came here, as with many others, any disagreement, no matter how mild, seemed "contentious" and uncomfortable. One "rude" reply on a thread of 30 responses would seem unbearable, especially if it was directed at me.
Again, I suggest that it's up to each of us to find our own way through the garden, prickles 'n all. Find what works for you, ignore what doesn't, accept that it's impossible to legislate and govern the chosen behaviour of thousands of posters, even for Admin. That's what the board guidelines attempt to do and usually it works okay, but most of it is subjective, and you're never gonna make or keep everybody happy, especially as we come from so many different perspectives.
If you want Admin to make things happy for all Christians all of the time, you're definitely on the wrong board. There's nothing wrong with you or the board in that case; it's just not a good fit for you. It happens.
As for the thread that elicited your reply that I've tried to answer above, I did try to explain on that thread that it's just a little wordplay, at least on my part. People are gonna believe what they believe and they're not going to all agree with Christians. I don't like fighting, arguing, being at odds with people, or adopting the seemingly expected stance of disliking or disagreeing with people based on their religious beliefs or lack thereof. In fact, it's been a huge part of my necessary life lessons to learn to step outside the camp, to decline to engage in groupspeak, to say I agree with someone, if I do, whether they happen to be atheist, Christian or any variety of human between.
I try to keep in mind that whatever someone writes at RfM could be meaningful to them, sensitive, and therapeutic for THEM. It's not all about the reader; in fact, it's mostly about the writer. You may not agree with what they've said, or like it, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a space where they're free to say it.
And being free to express oneself is therapeutic for those who have flown out of a cage. It is music. It is balm. It is joy.
I realize that non-believers gore the fatted calves of believers here. But some fat cattle need goring.
Too, I agree with exmos who object to people scathingly criticizing Mormonism but insisting that their own sacred cows remain untouched. That is irrational, insensitive, and unfair.
In today's instance, for me it is "therapeutic" to goof off about religious stuff. I don't do it nearly often enough. There may be a lot more underlying what people write than others realize. It's worth thinking about.
I'm sorry, honestone, if you were offended by what I wrote. I am. But I won't take it back. I said what I wanted to say. It wasn't intended to be bashing or mocking, as I said in my original posts.
I'm a Christian, have been since before I joined the Mormon Church. I'm certainly not a Christian basher, as you have labelled me. I set out a long time ago to learn about Christianity and to find a church where I felt at home without having to squirm into a little box where I didn't really fit. Still looking. And as I've said here before, one of the most honest - and most enlightening - moments I've ever experienced was in speaking to my pastor after I had left Mormonism, when I said to him that all the questions (and hurts) are answered if there is no god - that answers every soul-searching angst-ridden question. He agreed with me! Many Christians I know would scourge me for saying that, without seeking to understand me at all. Why so afraid to engage with different folks and talk things over? Squelching, secrecy, sacred cows. They all make me very uncomfortable.
And I'm not going to stay silent any more. I'm not losing my mind. Just engaging my brain. Using my tongue and my typing fingers.
I can't promise it'll be pretty. But one thing I can guarantee. I won't hurt anybody in my voyage of discovery, unlike a significant number of Christians I've met along the way. When the resounding mantra floating around in my head for years now is "church hurts" (and not confined to Mormon Church either) there's something wrong.
And that's not my fault.
Getting judged after enjoying a few minutes of fun today (wordplay in other thread) is uncomfortably reminiscent for me of all the times that has happened to me in church, any church, where it's all too easy to feel inadequate, ashamed, unwanted, and screwed up.
As I said, church hurts.
Unless, perhaps, you toe the line, spout the party talk, stay under the radar, squelch everything about yourself and your thoughts and your questions, and then maybe you'll be accepted, not judged adversely, maybe even liked.
Blech.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2011 03:12AM by Nightingale.