I graduated from BYU many years ago and feel that I got an education comparable to a mid-range state school. My niece is going there in the fall and my TBM mom was raving about how inexpensive it was compared to other private colleges like Harvard and Stanford. My mom never attended BYU so I pointed out that while I feel I got an adequate education, it was in no way comparable to a place like Stanford. At which point she began taking about how in demand BYU graduates are, how everyone respects a BYU degree and how many companies want moral employees nowadays so seek out BYU grads/Mormons. She got a bit hysterical when I pointed out there was plenty of sex and drinking at BYU, they were just better at hiding it. So then she switched to the whole "angels above us are silent notes taking" scenario and how people who acted like that at BYU would have to answer to God.

My objections to going sending kids to BYU, other than the Mormonism, is that while it's an OK education, it really doesn't teach you critical thinking. I also call it a party school, since for many girls when I went there it was all about finding an eternal partner, rather than training for a career. The "party" in this case was serial dating but it did distract from what a college education should be about. Finally, I think that religious universities, in general, don't get the respect on a resume that other colleges and universities do. They definitely don't get the respect my mom thinks they do.

About the time my mom started ranting about the terrible liberals ruining the country, the imaginary timer on my oven went off and I told her I had to go. But I'm wondering what more rational people think of BYU.

In the 50s and 60's my husband received an excellent education in Electrical Engineering, minor in Math.
What it became in the 80's and 90's and later has been shocking to him and to one of our children that attended. The ideas about Honor Code, etc. are bizarre.

Well, it's no Harvard nor Stanford. It's not even a Michigan, Cal-Berkeley, nor Virginia. I'd put it overall at about the level of a second tier state flagship university.

Beyond that, you have to look at each department individually. Accounting is well respected. I've heard good things about the animation program. I consider my undergraduate major, studio art, to be wholly inadequate.

I'll start with a generalization -- which is often but not always valid, in this case it almost certainly is:

A university that prohibits intellectual honesty and open discussion with religious zeal will never, ever provide as thorough an education as a university that does not.

(given another article recently posted, you could say the same thing about UC Berkeley right now, btw!)

That certainly applies to BYU. Instructors afraid to say the wrong thing for fear of losing their jobs. Students afraid to speak up on all sorts of issues for fear of being kicked out. And their fear isn't irrational -- BYU has in the past and continues today to boot faculty and students that don't toe the mormon line. We just had an article the other day relating how a BYU-I adjunct professor was fired for daring to support LBGT rights on facebook.

Your mom is partially right and partially wrong about the "in demand" status of BYU grads. In Utah, sure. They're in high demand. In the rest of the country -- not so much. In some areas (mostly engineering, computer science, law, and some areas of medicine), having a BYU degree doesn't really harm you, but it doesn't really help you either (unless you're going to work for a mormon-owned company). In some others (notably history, literature, art, etc.) having a BYU degree is almost certainly harmful. Even in Utah, though, a degree from Stanford or Harvard or dozens of other private schools (and a number of state schools) are given more "respect" than any degree from BYU is, other than perhaps a degree in religious studies if you're applying for a church job.

I hire engineering/computer science people. I wouldn't dismiss anyone outright for having a degree from BYU, I'd look at their work history, etc. But I certainly wouldn't give them any special consideration, either. Neither would any of the hundreds of tech managers I talk with regularly. This supposed "respect" for BYU grads your mom imagines doesn't exist.

She's right about one thing -- it is cheap compared to most private schools and even a lot of state schools. But you know, sometimes you get what you pay for...:)

A university's reputation is heavily based on securing Federal grants/contracts, amounts of donor investments, and research generated in its graduate schools.

A few years ago, in its quest to become the Notre Dame of the West, BYU put lots of pressure on its faculty for publications and research. This has produced mixed results--more pubs and better research, but not at level expected at major Research-1 institutions. Also, the Y has generally shied away from Federal grants and contracts because of the regulations attached to those receiving Federal dollars.

Recently, the Y disbanded its ROTC program rather than allowing a nevermo military leader his beverages of choice.

So, any rankings are going to note:

Strengths--

1. Increased levels of scholarly activity
2. Modest primary research publications
3. Strong amounts of financial support from alumni and church finances

Weaknesses--

1. Limited Federal grants and contracts
2. Concerns about academic freedom and faculty tenure (there is no tenure at the Y, rather--continuing status)
3. High profile incidents (such as ROTC) that reinforce perceptions relating to item 2.

As to the individual student experience--your niece can work to create a Harvard experience at the Y by finding the right mentor, choosing professors based on scholarly activity, and joining on-going research projects through undergraduate research programs or honors study.

This "creating a Harvard experience" holds true for most individuals at any major state university. Education is what the student creates within the university structure. Create a purposefully rigorous academic program of study, receive a strong education. Create a party-driven or faith-promoting experience, receive a mediocre education.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2017 10:48PM by BYU Boner.

I agree with the Boner's general point that often education is what a student makes of it. Most of my best education moments at BYU happened in the library.

The limited academic freedom can be something that you can learn from. After awhile, I would like to see how far I could push the line in class. But once, I started to discover the truths that precluded the LDS Church "being true" in any way that that term is generally understood it became more difficult. You can certainly have more understanding of how powerful even unspoken and unenforced norms can be at regulating human behavior in totalitarian/authoritarian societies.

I think many of the faculty while I was there did good job within a limiting setting to help you broaden your perspective--but it had to be something you were looking to do.

Having said that, I would not do it again, and not recommend that others do so.

I was very deep in religion when I attended BYU, so I fit right in. I made amazing friends that I keep to this day. People in general were very kind and accepting in a way I had never experienced before. I still feel happy when I walk across campus; there are many good experiences to recall. But that's mostly social.

Academically, the teachers varied widely. Some were stellar; some were a complete waste of time. I also had a few teachers that really pushed me to develop critical thinking skills. Developing these really helped me with my exit from the church much later on, so I am very grateful to these professors even though I really questioned them at the time. For me, with the upbringing I had, it was perfect. But for someone who was not as sheltered or as devout as I was, it would probably be claustrophobic.

In the 30 years it took me to get my bachelor's degree from start to finish, I attended 6 colleges/universities, BYU being the largest and finishing up at UVSC (now UVU).

The school where I had the best classes, as far as what I learned and what kind of critical thinking I had to use was at the first two-bit junior college in California I went to right out of high school. It was in the early 70s when all you had to pay to go to a junior college in California was $5.50 to buy a student ID. The classes at Ricks and BYU felt like high school after that--not that the subjects were easy, but other than one class I had at Ricks, I felt like I was in class with high schoolers after attending in California. As a side note, that class at Ricks started out with over 40 students and ended up with 7. It was called "Modern Social Problems," and we actually had great discussions. I'm sure the professor, if he's still alive today is an exmo. And I'll guarantee there are no classes like that at BYUI now.

The two professors I loved in California have passed away now, one a biology professor and one a history professor. I wish they were still around so I could look them up and thank them for teaching me how to think for the first time in my life. Maybe it was just the times and the place. I don't believe you get that kind of education anymore. There aren't enough students who see college as a place to stretch their minds. It doesn't matter how prestigious the institution is if you don't learn how to think and are only there to process data.

NormaRae, don't lose all hope.

My son, attending a CalState college (will be a junior in about 3 weeks) told me after one of his classes this past semester that "...I think the best thing I got out of this class was learning how to think, rather than what to think."

I was quite pleased. There are still instructors out there who get it. :)

Ah, but that is where BYU is superior. They tell you how to think and when to think it. It keeps your mind clear.

Yeah, superior. I mean how can you be obedient if no one tells you what to do and think? Who would test your obedience to see if you can make it to the holy veil?

That's encouraging to hear. Maybe you just have to go to California.

Any university is supposed to be a place of critical thinking. BYU does not allow that. Ergo, BYU is a university mostly in name only. Mostly, BYU is just a well-groomed campus intended as an impressive flagship. The flagship exercise used to work better than it does now.

BYU also names buildings after individuals with questionable morals: The library was named after a man who did not want blacks to attend the university; the law school was named after an avowed anti-Semite.

I always tell people that BYU is comparable to Oral Roberts or Bob Jones.

"A huge dating pool for Mormon youth, cleverly disguised as an institute of higher learning."

Good one. That's exactly why I feel justified in calling it a party school of sorts. My daughter's non-LDS BFF asked if the purpose of BYU was to keep them captive until they mate. That's another good one. Her dad escaped from an LDS family years ago and she knows how crazy-making LDS relatives can be.

Echoing Hie's comment, I used to do hiring (and firing) for a couple of different companies. I would never consciously reject someone solely because the applicant went to BYU. However, I also clearly remember thinking, every time it came up, "Oh, shoot! Will this person be able to think and act in a rational way? Will he/she be innovative? Or just a thoughtless follower? Will there be conflicts with the other staff?" (The other staff being wildly varied and often quite outspoken in many ways.)

Those questions did not spring immediately to mind for graduates of any other university, religiously affiliated or not. (Mind you, I never had a graduate of Oral Roberts apply for a job....)

Out here in the SF bay area mormons do not have a good rep. You tell someone that you are a mormon and you are also telling them that you hate gays, are a prude, and are super gullible. Are those the qualities of a person you want to hire?

A BYU degree is also a mark labelling an individual as a member of a cult. Perhaps the education is good, perhaps its is not, but overcoming the stigma of being a mormon seems to be another obstacle to overcome.

How many posters here have a BYU degree and have to qualify their religious status in order to be considered for a job? Employers are legally-bound to not ask those kinds of questions to potential applicants but job-interviewees can volunteer this information.

Yes, I've often thought about going back and finishing my major that I started at Sacramento State, thinking it would be nice to have another university listed on my resume. Not enough of a reason to do it, of course, but showing I have a non-religious school to my credit would be nice.

Being a Mormon, in California, anyway, does mean one is a cult member. It also means that the person's primary loyalty is to the cult, and not to the company he/she works for. In Utah, as well as in California, to many it means "MLM-mentality" and lack of integrity. The only companies I know of that are looking for BYU graduates are MLM companies, and companies looking for trained salesmen.

Praydude has a good point. A BYU graduate is telling the world that he/she is a Mormon, and that opens a huge can of worms. No matter how hard I tried to cast aside my Mormon past, the BYU on my resume was there to haunt me.

As far as education goes--NO--I would not recommend BYU to anyone! Go with a junior college, and then a better university for upper graduate work. Sorry, but you can't compare BYU with Stanford. I've been to both, and like one poster said, BYU was more like high school. Well, my high school classes were better than BYU. I just slid by at the Y, and skied, played tennis, and went on dates. The only classes that taught me anything new were the science classes--and even then, only one day was spent on the subject of evolution. The teacher warned us ahead of time, that Darwinism was going to be taught on a certain day, and that class attendance was not mandatory on that day! Yes!

I'm sure the honors program (if they still have it) at BYU is good. The rest of us ordinary students were stuck with huge classes of 250 students, and an instructor, not a professor. I felt like one of the masses. Someone would ask me my name, and I would reply with my student number, instead, to be ironic, but I was serious. I was just a number. Lots of boys dated me, because I was not overweight, and they thought I had money. The Number One FAQ of dating was, "What does your father do for a living?" My father was a bit of a Mormon celebrity. It was all so shallow, and such a waste of time, except for the skiing!

Going to BYU was the worst mistake of my life. Well, it was my parents' decision, really. Our family heritage was to graduate from BYU, then do grad work at Stanford. Stanford wouldn't accept religion classes, except for one Bible class, and I had to go back and take more undergrad classes, first. It is much harder, these days, for a BYU grad to be accepted to Stanford.

LOL! I absolutely would not recommend going to BYU to find a husband, either! That was disastrous for me! Someone mugged me on campus, and my roommate's fiancee beat me up and attempted to rape me (I was rescued) in Cannon Center. Don't send your daughter there. A wealthy friend of mine sent her daughters to BYU, and they had full-time body guards living with them, in a secure house. Still, they married BYU guys, and it turned out that the guys were just after their money. Ugly divorces ensued, and there were children involved.... Why not just go ahead and send them to Harvard or Stanford, in the first place.

Why not just live at home? My kids went to the U, and lived at our house, had jobs, joined fraternities/sororities, and had fun and sports--plus a first-rate education, and valuable local business networking, besides.

If you don't mind divulging, when were you at BYU and what was your major? Incidentally, I'm impressed that you got accepted at Stanford for graduate school (if I understand your post right).

I've heard TBMs (try to) refer to BYU as the "Harvard of the Intermountain West." Wow? Does that mean Harvard is the BYU of the East? :(

But I gather BYU does excel in Business, Economics, Music, and Animation. Wherever you go (Write on, Hie!) college is what you make it. Me? I was an undergrad so long, they had to either graduate me or grant me tenure. I ended up getting a B.A. ("Bachelor of Alcoholism"). I excelled in field research.

I am a talent acquisition professional (recruiting) and have been for about two decades. I live outside of Utah and have recruited for prestigious companies, mostly in the tech industry. There is absolutely no truth to the Mormon belief that BYU grads are in high demand. Never once in my 20 years in the profession has a non-Mormon hiring manager said anything about wanting BYU grads (alumni from any school have a tendency to want to hire others from their school). There have been occasions where the opposite is true and they've said they have concerns about them fitting in, but mostly the candidate's BYU education is met with total indifference. It is absolutely not considered elite or upper tier, except maybe the accounting school. It seems that accounting firms, especially the Big Four, like BYU grads because they tend to be more open to going wherever they're sent like they did when they went on a mission.

I did not go to BYU, but I did get an associate degree from Rick's and have removed that and any reference to a mission from my resume.

I was a TBM at the time of my going to BYU in the mid-1950ies.

I also (not being a great scholar), was grateful--educationally speaking--that I was able to get in a year at the "Y' without being forced to drop out by medium grades.

I resented having to pay good money to take religion classes (and time), but discovered when I got home that I could get credit for these classes, which helped me get my AA degree at my local 2-yr. college.

I also got a great education at the 'Y' as this relates to males--and three proposals (none of which I accepted). (BTW, one was from a Protestant minister-turned LDS--and looking for a wife--who also drove a two-year old Cadillac.)

I had a ball (most dated girl in my dorm).

So, all-in-all, I obviously am not a good person to seriously answer your serious question.

Oh yes, at the time, they had just established a law school, which was highly rated.

So, how helpful was my experiences?

(Sorry, and yes--I am ashamed of myself for distracting from your serious question.)

P.

I could comment on the importance of critical thinking, but instead, I'll offer a more pragmatic observation:

When I worked in legal firms, on two occasions I participated in hiring blitzes, staffing for particularly large cases. Any resumes listing a JD at Brigham Young went in the trash. I asked why, because I knew they didn't know the bullshit and had no idea I was a former Mormon, so why.....?

They said, "you can't have people who can't think." I pressed and the bosses said, "If they could think, they wouldn't be in a college where the education isn't respected." I asked what he meant and he said "Everybody knows the education is not standard, like they don't teach evolution or whatever."

One of the other hiring attorneys said they didn't have the time to take on someone who couldn't work on Sundays and might be overly sensitive about curse words or liquor.

So there's that.



Kathleen