As a single non-Mormon woman, I could use some advice on a personal and professional problem I’m having with my single male Mormon coworker. He and I have been working together for several months, in roles that require us to work closely -- one-on-one -- nearly every day, even traveling alone together on occasion. Our professional relationship was easy and fun from day one, and we quickly grew closer, becoming friends. His being Mormon was of no consequence to me, though I was initially careful not to let myself develop any romantic feelings for him, expecting that he might prefer to date only Mormon women. But the chemistry between us was overwhelming, and it wasn’t long before I fell hard.

Over time, he continued to pay more attention to me, leading me (and a few annoying gossips) to believe that the attraction was mutual, despite my status as a non-Mormon. He never went so far as to ask me out, and I was loving getting to know him organically through our work, without all the pressures of dating, so I decided to just enjoy being friends with potential rather than rush things and risk damaging our professional relationship.

Then, a couple of months ago, he suddenly pulled back with no explanation. After a week of walking on eggshells around him, I asked him directly if I’d done something to upset him. He responded very positively, apologizing for any miscommunication, reassuring me that he liked and respected me, but never really explaining the change in behavior. Weeks later, in a lighter conversation, he did share that he usually dates younger Mormon women. That was hard to hear given our history and my feelings, but I respect his choices and put my disappointment aside (or at least did a pretty impressive job of faking it).

The problem now is that he continues to run really hot and cold. One day we’re friends, the next he’s treating me like the enemy, and the daily emotional roller coaster is crushing me. I’m not in a position to change jobs right now, and I don’t know that I’d want to stop working with him even if I could. But how can I finally get to the bottom of this and clear the air if he won’t have an honest adult conversation with me? A hard truth would be much easier to take than the constant mixed signals. Is my only option to just forget it all and limit our discussions to projects only?

Any insights from those more experienced with Mormon relationships? Could his religion be a factor here?

Sounds like his religion is governing his life, which is usually the case if he is a true believer, because he is conditioned to marry only a true believer - "worthy" female in the temple. The ideal eternal temple marriage is likely his only real acceptable choice, especially if his family are all true believers also.

You are not it. He probably found himself attracted to you and knew he had to put an end to it as his religion is more important than any relationship unless it's with another Mormon female.

Might be wise to stay on business topics, and make it clear you are setting some clear boundaries. Your job is about your work/career, not your feelings about a co-worker. Wise to keep it that way, in my view.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2017 01:25AM by SusieQ#1.

Thanks, good advice, but ouch. I certainly didn't go into my job looking for this and have never gotten personally involved with a coworker before. It just happened, and now I'm trying to figure out how to recover the situation.

I think SusieQ is right. I married a Mormon and thank God she's out of it. But, if I had it to do all over again, I'd just run.

Since he never asked you out why be all butt hurt over his hot/cold, does he like me, kind of vibe anyway.

Go to work, do the work, and live your own personal life. Not sure if it's some sense of rejection that wants yourself to be likeable from him or not.

Either way, be professional and you'll eventually move up I suppose in your job in work with other people Or quit for a hire paying job.

Either way, don't worry about the ups and downs of this lost Mormon co-worker.

Absolutely. He feels guilty about having feelings for you and freaks out about it because he's been indoctrinated to only date Mormons. It's totally not you. His religion weaponizes guilt to control people and he's too close to it to see it.

Trust me, you don't want a serious relationship with a Mormon. Their religion has them too twisted up.

I'd say you dodged a bullet with the relationship. Offce-place dating can get pretty complicated. Your feelings for him are complex and have become personal; they need to go back to professional.

Establish boundaries and do not send mixed signals. For example, no more working lunches out. If you have to work with him during lunch, do so in an open, office environment. Do not send texts, use company email and remember that supervisors will be able to view your correspondence. Do not call him on his cell phone either. I'd also cut out any personal, non-work-related conversations.

If he asks you about your work together, tell him directly that you're a professional and that your working together will only be in professional contexts.

Very best wishes!

Thank you! Thankfully, I was always careful about all of those things, understanding that he was Mormon and that any personal relationship might be taboo. Just some more personal conversations during work and on trips -- it's hard to travel alone with someone for days at a time and NOT discuss anything personal at all.

His religion is definitely a factor. He's running hot and cold on you because he has feelings for you that are unacceptable to him because you are not what he wants in a wife. He wants one of those young Mormon females. It will never work out between the two of you. It's best to take a step back emotionally and focus in on work.

You might want to get on one of the dating sites/apps and arrange a few dates. Even if they end up being kind of meh, I think it would do wonders for your ego to go out with some other guys, maybe take the odd call from a man at work, etc. A young friend of mine has used both Match and eHarmony and gotten some decent dates from both. Don't think of it as trying to find your one-and-only (which might seem intimidating,) but rather just getting out of the office with someone who will acknowledge you as a desirable female.

Just don't go on ePolygamy.com

Write this guy off as a possible love interest. It will never work unless you're willing to become a devout mormon and have your children indoctrinated into a cult.

Sorry, but it's better to cut it off now than live with the consequences.

Most exmos consider moism to be a cult, either having been born into it, or converted into it by lying missionaries, who are mostly unable to tell the truth from a lie.

You are feeing the effects of partially bonding with a cult member. I actually give him props for cutting you off before it became physical. There have been many a nevermo broken heart on this board where the cut-off happened after sex, sex being one of the ultimate guilt trips and means of control in the cult. In the cult, men can be forgiven that sin, but only virgin women have any worth at all (as baby and home makers).

Running hot and cold? Why aren't you angry? Do you enjoy being toyed with? You can get off of the cult rollercoaster any time you choose. If he goes into formerly chummy mode, ignore it. Return a blank or "whatever..." face and say nothing, maybe only, "Excuse me," then walk away or go back to your work /book / blog / reading and posting on this board. Say nothing of your personal life.

The "cold" part of the "hot and cold" is called shunning, and it's you being shunned. Unless you want to be trapped in a cult, or until he leaves the cult (takes years, emotionally, not weeks or months), you will do best to re-establish a work-only relationship, since you are feeling the effects of his inability to do so.

And, you may want to brace for any "doubting his faith" that may come into play. When you cut the emotional cord, he may honestly miss you to the degree that he states he's willing to leave his faith. Congratulate him, but tell him that that is something he must do for himself alone, not "for" you. If he leaves TSCC for you, you run the high risk of becoming a source of resentment, as he begins to lose his family, friends and way of life. You vs. his only known world is not a "winning" or enviable position.

Don't get me wrong, this board is made for people who are experiencing the sometimes life-long pain of losing those people and things, usually as a result of shunning, and nevermos become life-long friends, partners and mates. But, it is usually a long and painful road to freedom, and he would go through many, many changes. You have no way of knowing if he A) really (now) thinks of Joseph Smith as the criminal he was, or B) will turn his back on Joe Smith, for a time, to be with you (for a time). You nor he would have no idea if his cult exit would be successful. He would need love and support, but in the meantime, you must weigh any risks to your own long-term emotional health, and way of life.

A side word -

Mormonism is not "just" another form of Christianity. It adds to the bible in ways which disputes well-known and very basic tenets of Christianity. Without knowing how or why, you may have inadvertently offended the many, many rules of his beliefs, which is at its roots, systematic brainwashing.

The hot/cold behavior is his internal struggle between all he has ever known and loved, and the temptation (or offence) of you. Do the emotional work, and be your own floatation device. You need not be contemptuous or mean, but you must be clear, for both of your sakes.

And whatever you do, stay the hell away from cults. Sorry to be so blunt, but don't even hint that you -might- be willing to "check it out." If you ever feel that way, ask this board about "milk before meat" and love bombing.

My best to you.

IMHO, there are so many ways for it to go wrong that it isn't worth it to date co-workers.

Remember that all Mormon men will feel privileged to date younger women. I get the impression that you're not one of these younger women, but possibly more his age, or--God forbid--older than he. All Mormon men, no matter how they look or what their station, will somehow think they're attractive to younger Mormon females. And, to be sure, all young Mormon females have some well-meaning male leader trying to nudge them into a relationship.

I am a BIC Mormon, and grew up with Mormon brothers and cousins. I dated a lot of Mormon men at BYU. I had two marriages and two divorces with Mormon men. After my divorces, I was called as a regional head of the LDS Singles. I tell you these things from experience, and from knowing the Mormon scriptures and teachings.

Here's the truth about most Mormon men. There are exceptions, of course, but in your case, you need to know few Mormon facts:

Your Mormon co-worker will always put the Mormon cult First--ahead of you, ahead of any unfortunate young Mormon woman he ends up marrying. Mormons are brainwashed from childhood, that the church is the most important thing in life. Not Christ. Not the spouse or children. This is one of the main reasons that the Mormon church is defined as a full-blown CULT.

Your Mormon co-worker is a priesthood holder. Women can not--and never will be allowed to--hold the priesthood. The Mormon cult treats women as second-class citizens. The women's group, the Relief Society, is run by the men. Most of their lessons are on subjects such as "Honoring the priesthood" and "being worthy to attend the temple" and "Obedience." When I taught RS, the lessons were based on speeches and writings of old POLYGAMOUS Mormon prophets, with little relevance to life as we know it. Trust me--the "ideal" woman is NOT a working woman. Mormon women are admonished to stay at home with the children, and not work.

Your Mormon co-worker has been brainwashed to marry only a "worthy" mormon girl--in the temple! In the Mormon temple, there are secrets, kept even from the Mormons themselves, until it is too late, and they are in the middle of the rituals. I, myself was married in the Mormon temple, and I wanted to run out of there, but there were 300 guests attending my reception afterwards, and I couldn't leave, with my mother and sisters-in-law and aunts sitting all around me. Men sit on one side of the room, and women on the other. The women have to veil their faces, for some of the rituals. For the anointing ritual, you have to take off all your clothes, and you are covered only with a drape, and a temple worker anoints your genitals and breasts with oil. In those days, men pledged obedience to God, and the women pledged obedience to their husband. We all had to pantomime slitting our throat, then our heart, then our bowels, in blood oaths to never tell anyone (even other temple mormons) anything about these secrets. There are secret handshakes, that are taught only in the temple, and without these secret handshakes, no one can enter the highest degree of Heaven. It is only for temple Mormons. IMO, this is nasty, evil stuff. It all requires that you pay 10% of your income, for a temple recommend. This is what your Mormon co-worker wants for his life, for his wife, for his children.

The temple wedding ceremony is really a covenant for a man and a woman to pledge themselves to the cult "under the New and Everlasting Covenant." You can find the exact wording online. The "New and Everlasting Covenant" is Joseph Smith's covenant of POLYGAMY. Mormons were forced by the US Government to give up polygamy, but they believe that polygamy is still God's way. They believe that there will be polygamy in heaven. A man can get married in the temple as many times as he wants, after a wife dies or after a divorce. My ex-husband who beat me, married three temple wives, after me, and they all divorced him. He will still be married to them in heaven, the Mormons believe. I will be one of his wives. I, as a woman, was not allowed to marry my second husband in the temple.

You really did dodge a bullet!

Mormonism is a cult of hate. They believe that all the other religions are false. They are homophobic. They are racist and sexist. Their scriptures support this. The lives of their prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young exemplify lying, stealing, murder, and other hate crimes.

Mormons are trained to put on a pleasant, even charming facade. Appearances are everything. The motive behind this is to recruit others, and "grow the church." I'm amazed that your co-worker hasn't tried to convert you. Mormons--especially missionaries--are trained to manipulate and fool others. That's why Utah is the No. 1 scam state in the Nation.

One last thing you need to know, is that Mormons don't believe in unconditional love. Russell M. Nelson, a Mormon apostle, can be quoted as saying, "unconditional love is anti-Christ."

Mormonism is not a Christian religion. Christ is hardly mentioned in the talks and lessons. Love is not preached or practiced. Your Mormon friend is most likely love-deprived, and, likewise, probably couldn't ever love you in the way a normal man could.

Look elsewhere for love!

Set boundaries, and make it clear that you are co-workers only. If he starts to cajole you and flirt with you--call him on it! Tell him to stop harassing you, and to find another way to feed his ego.

Sorry 'inovermyhead' for your pains.

I agree with the other posters responses. I'll just add my two cents as well for what it's worth.

The reason he sends mixed signals is because HE is MIXED up emotionally, mentally, intellectually.

The Mormon 'church' is extremely controlling and psychologically damaging. Those still deep in it, can't see that. But they deal with emotionally pain and confusion all of the time because of it. This affects those who get close to them, esp. non-members. But the members he chooses to date are really no better off, because he really doesn't know who he is, as he is so controlled, he doesn't know his own mind and desires so he's bound to hurt anyone in that state.

And it's really no good for you to be the one walking on egg shells and wondering about HIM all of the time. What about your needs? I know it's hard, but definitely back off, establish boundaries, rule this out as a possibility. It really isn't one, he's not really available. Not to you, as a non-mormon, but still not emotionally even if you were one. you'd never be able to actually be close and truly intimate with someone like this.

It's kind of like falling in love with a gay man, esp. one in the closet. It's someone who is not available to you, so you will only hurt yourself even fantasizing about someone like that. I've been there many times. I fell for closeted gays who were Mormon (that btw is another possibility in your case too, which can also explain a lot about the mix signals).. my closet gay crushes were so friendly and fun and seemed to like me but then I'd be hurt and confused when nothing happened. I also dated mormons while a mormon and got rejected for not measuring up to the right kind of mormon woman (apparently in one case I didn't wear enough make up or dress up enough! this was actually what my boyfriend told me after dating for a couple of months when he started to feel the pressures of Mormon indoctrination to get married within a couple of months of dating someone.. and so he started to ask himself early on, as they do, if he could marry me, and then decided he couldn't primarily because of the make up thing.. and he actually told me this! And he was supposedly one of this 'alternative' types, musician in a band.. I really didn't think he wanted a woman in flowery dresses, big hair, and a lot of make up.. why did he date me in the first place then? It was extremely heart wrenching for me..

That was just one of my horrible experiences dating Mormons (while I was still Mormon). Lucky for me none of them worked out. Or I could have ended up staying in the cult longer than I did or had to leave while having a TBM hubbie or having kids etc. I was really lucky that I did not match up to those Mormon boys 'high standards'.. basically I wasn't wife material.

What I also experienced was, being an artist from the east coast, with short hair, not much make up, more open minded than most Mormons etc.. Well I was a bit of a novelty for those Mormon boys while at school in Utah at the Y. Which attracted many of them since I was the 'forbidden fruit' in a way and in other cases I attracted those who were questioning their faith and the Mormon way. But ultimately mostly they were too scared to do more than light rebellion.. they all ended up back in the cult, marrying the 'proper' type of Mormon girl (again it's not JUST about being Mormon or not, it's about being the 'right kind' of Mormon.. an ideal that is extremely hard for anyone to measure up to.. at least not without faking it and a lot of antidepressants)…

So in your case, it's likely that he's attracted possibly because you are 'forbidden fruit'. but then he gets too scared to do anything about it. To act on it, in his mind, might be a 'sin'.. So many things are 'sins' for Mormons.. it makes it very very difficult to have any kind of relationship with them at all.. certainly you can't have a normal adult relationship and you can't expect an adult conversation from someone who's been taught to stay in child like obedient mode forever. Never taught to question anything, no critical thinking skills.. they are emotionally developmentally stunted. So you won't get what you need out of him, .. probably not ever. But MAYBE if he woke up, got out of the cult, got help. But it takes years of therapy.

ALSO what is really really NOT OKAY, and a BIG RED FLAG is the fact that he said he usually dates YOUNGER Mormon women!!?? WTF????

So you are FLAWED for being OLDER????? (and I imagine it's not much older, just you probably are a woman instead of a girl) And WHY does he date 'YOUNGER' women only anyway? So he can reign over them more easily?

Mormonism is extremely sexist. He is a 'priesthood holder' So he's looking for a submissive obedient wife. Easier to get that when they are younger. One that will 'respect' his priesthood 'authority'.

Also Mormons date only briefly before marrying, typically. Long pre marriage dating one person is very much discouraged, because then they might slip and 'sin' (have sex or even engaged in 'petting' or french kissing, oh my!).. So the goal in dating is marriage and marriage is very strictly defined.. the type of person you are supposed to marry, how you are supposed to get married (in the temple), what age you are supposed to marry, for what purpose you are to marry (serve 'the lord' and his 'church')..

I think you've got the picture.

Bottom line, is he is NOT available, and will NOT likely EVER be.

So best to RUN while you can. Protect yourself and your emotions. You don't want to keep yourself in a position of being rejected constantly and having your emotions toyed with, which is all that is going to happen unless you take care of yourself, forget about him or the possibility of him, and make boundaries.

Good luck!

The culture of Mormonism often encourages manipulation--anything not to deal with their true feelings directly. It is very possible that his emotional and social growth is stunted. Like mine was.

He probably finally realized your feelings--it had to show at some point--and has no idea how to handle it. He has been told since childhood that the only option is finding a Mormon girl.

Even if he harbors some feelings for you, you don't want this. His only hope is getting out the church and starting personal growth from scratch. Then he can be a late bloomer like many of us who had to undo a lot as adults and relearn things that we should have learned as children. It's not easy.

I was an older single adult (meaning past 21) and didn't get married until I was 27.

An adult conversation with an "older" mormon guy? It doesn't happen.

I had so many experiences with these older mormon guys where everyone told me (including a bishop) that the guy was interested in me. We "hung out." But the one time I decided to talk to one of them about it, they ran. Then he told me he was coming by to talk to me about it. Never happened. He married years later to someone with 6 children. He went through many younger women in his day as a single mormon. He was over 50 when he got married.

Mormon men played so many games with me and they ran hot and cold like you are talking about.

I dated some nonmormons who I worked with and they were SO REFRESHING. I was ruined for life once I dated a nonmormon. I had 3 ask me to marry them, but I still held out for a mormon. Stupid me.

Not all mormon men are like the guy you are talking about, but any that are older might be. Most of the guys I dated in mormonism were at least 10 years older than me. The ones who did marry, all of them married after I did when they were close to 50.

There is only a royal mind fuck when dealing with "older" single mormon men. He's shown his true colors. RUN.

I'm now with the first nonmormon I dated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2017 11:39AM by cl2.

Another possibility…

Mormon men are indoctrinated-programmed that masturbation is A Terrible Sin. It's conceivable that his sexual feelings for you (when he runs hot) leads him to self-pleasure. Then his conditioning kicks in and he feels intense guilt for Committing Such An Awful Sin. He blames you for being the sexy means for his temptation, blames the devil (oh, yes) for the temptation itself, and blames himself for giving in to that temptation. The guilt and blame are what makes him run cold. He never blames the actual culprit – the church – because in his mind the church can never be at fault.

Mormons are so stunted and childlike that many adults will refuse to watch R-rated movies because they might inadvertently see a butt or a boob, and then be driven to repent for any "impure" thoughts resulting from that display of flesh.

Consider yourself fortunate. On the other end of the spectrum, some predatory Mormon men will think nothing of sleeping with non-Mormon women that they will never consider marrying. This is because they would never "defile a daughter of Zion." Such men see non-Mormon women solely as objects of physical lust.

Long story short, you have no future with him, hot or cold. The church has seriously messed with his mind, especially in terms of sexuality. Get out while the getting is relatively easy.

Another possibility is that he talked to his bishop, who, in the Mormon church, has no formal ecclesiastical training and was "called" to be bishop for 2 or 3 years (because Mormons have "studied" the scriptures since they were 3, and he's probably a dentist IRL).

If he has real feelings for you, his bishop probably told him not to be tempted by you, and to choose a worthy female from the Singles Ward.

It does seem odd that he never tried to convert you, which possibly means he was questioning the church; his bishop would have put the kibosh on that ASAP.

I am a nevermo and also dated a Mormon man. It was the same sh!t you're describing. Finally he did cut me loose and it was really hard because, being the same type of guy, it took a long time of hot/cold stunts before it finally ended.

Seriously, I think this is SOP for Mormon men. I have heard this situation so many times on this site.

With my guy (the bile starts to rise as I wrote that,) I never had a voice. If I spoke up and asked, he either lied or lied and then punished me by ignoring me for 2 weeks.

You do not need a conversation with this guy. He has already told you how he feels. Actions speak louder than words.

I think Maya Angelou said something like "if a person shows you who they are, believe them." Dr. Phil also said something wise. "The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior."

Please let him go. Otherwise you are going to have a lot of pain. The writing is on the wall and this is not a relationship you want to have even if he were willing to have it.

Good luck.

OP here. I want to thank everyone who took the time to reply and share your perspectives. I can't tell you how helpful this was, and I wish I'd found this board sooner. I.HAD.NO.IDEA. I left the Lutheran church in my teens and have been a lifelong agnostic, and I naively believed the Mormon religion was just a slightly eccentric version of Christianity. It helps tremendously just to know that all the drama is likely not stemming from anything I did, and that I shouldn't take his rejection personally.

I realized as I read your messages that I should have shared a few additional details for context, including that he is in his late 30s, was married young in what I assume was a temple marriage, and has now been divorced for several years. He also chooses to live away from the Mormon corridor, and for several other reasons seemed to be on the more progressive side of the LDS spectrum (if you can call it that). So I eventually considered the possibility that there might be some middle ground, for friendship if nothing more. Your stories have helped me to see that there can be no middle ground while he's still active in the church.

And I do want to clarify that, while I understand the psychological issues and games that come into play here, he has truly never tried to manipulate, use, convert or intentionally hurt me in any way. Neither of us chose this situation, and we're both just trying to make the best of it. If anything, he's only tried to protect himself from whatever threat it is that he thinks I pose to him, and I've made that harder for him by failing to understand his strict boundaries. We've gotten to know each other pretty well, and aside from the frequent stonewalling, I've known him to be kind, considerate, respectful, supportive, and even nurturing.

So while I fully accept that he and I will never be anything more than coworkers, I'll continue to want the best for him and hold out hope that he'll find true happiness with the right person. It breaks my heart to watch someone I care for so much choose so much loneliness. And younger women he has nothing in common with except his religion. ;)

My best to you all. Back to work...

Here's a little different perspective from a guy who had an "emotional affair" with a co-worker that lasted for years while I was a relatively active, yet questioning member of the Mormon church. I was actually her boss. Other than that (and both of us being "happily" married), our situation sounded very similar to yours. We had fun, travelled together, lots of long and VERY personal conversations. I wouldn't even think of having those conversations with my wife as she is too judgmental...still can't 10 plus years down the road.

The attraction was real. We eventually became more open about our feelings for each other than it seems like you have. In the end, we broke it off...her moving away helped although we maintained very infrequent contact.

She was the kind of person that if our marital situation was different...we KNEW we would have ended up together.

Anyway...my point is, if you could find a way, maybe with the help of a mutual friend...to have a VERY frank discussion about what is going on and have him actually tell you that you can only be friends. But close friends. And continue your relationship on that basis, rather than living on this roller-coaster. Just get it out in the open. Maybe I'm crazy or just tired and rambling...just thinking.

"Staying close friends" when there is emotional and sexual attraction between two people is "living on this roller coaster".

Nature is stronger than logic.

Agreed. I don't know for sure that he's as attracted to me as I am to him (or at all), but if he is, trying to be close friends outside of work would be impossible.

Thanks for the new angle. I've considered this many times, but I'm an all-or-nothing kind of girl (or, all or just work in this case). ;) I hope your situation worked out for the best.

Thanks. Yes, things worked out fine. We both are still in our marriages and quite happy. We are on opposite sides of the country but run into each other occasionally as we are in the same smallish industry. Just pleasant memories...old friends. It's been many years. It's all good.

I see what everyone is saying about keeping it professional. That's kind of where I got in trouble ... those very personal talks.

OP, he did you a favor by letting you go. He let you know what is most important to him in a relationship. Characteristics that you do not possess. You are not a Mormon and you are not young enough for him. he has also made it clear that a friendship with you is not important.
What more do you need to know? In any relationship with someone clearly tells you they are no longer interested accept it graciously and move on.
You make it sound as if you do not have a personal choice in this. You do not have to quit your job, but you do need to make your boundaries clear. If any of his behavior is unacceptable, call him on it and do your job. If his behavior of flirtation or inappropriate comments continues you might need to take this to a supervisor. overall, you are much better off without this person in your life. His ego will always be more important than you.
RMM

Thanks for your response. I have (very) graciously accepted the fact that he's not interested in being friends or anything more, but even that hasn't put him at ease, and the tension is affecting our working relationship. That's what I'm trying to resolve. There's been no egotism, no inappropriate flirtation or comments, and there is no reason for any supervisor involvement. The difference in perspective between the replies from men and women has been interesting. I've known enough men of all backgrounds to be able to tell the good from the bad. My coworker is one of the good ones. Just not my good one, and that's OK.

I was born and raised mormon. I got temple married when I was 18. I divorced him when I was 20.

During that time there was a guy in the ward that was at least 3 years younger than me. There was chemistry between us that was undeniable. Nothing came of it, and he went off on a mission for 2 years. When he got back, I was single, and so was he.

He was friends with my father, and thought my father was the end all of end all. I didn't like that, but I figured it was none of my business. My dad (i'm pretty sure) talked him in to taking me on a date.

I felt like an adult going out with a kid. I'd been married/divorced, and on my own for about 6 years. He was a RM who still lived with his mother. I went out with him because he was nice guy and the most gorgeous man i've ever laid eyes on. I decided to see if there was something there.

The evening went well. The chemistry was sizzling hot. He came to my house and we went up to my room to watch tv (I had a roommate). Well, one thing led to another. Suddenly he hops up grabs his clothes, puts on pants, and runs out the door. I had a townhouse and could see him on the sidewalk. He was running barefoot to his car like Stan himself was after him. It made me feel so incredibly sad. Not for myself, but for him. I've never seen a guy so terrified of having an intimate relationship with a woman. Absolute terror.

OP may have dodged a situation like that. It's sad. You'll never know what could have been. It's also a relief to not know It could have been dramatic.

"Confess" to him that you are a lesbian.
That should fix it.

"Mormonism is extremely sexist. He is a 'priesthood holder' So he's looking for a submissive obedient wife. Easier to get that when they are younger. One that will 'respect' his priesthood 'authority'."

I was a Mormon priesthood holder, and I never planned to find a submissive obedient wife. I doubt many others here who were active did either.

I don't know many submissive women in the church. Yes, while at church they may conform to the leaders, but they can be in charge at home and elsewhere. And women also direct the men to adapt certain policies, like modesty, and beating up the guy over porn, etc, so they have less competition. They also demand the guy be the sole breadwinner so they can stay home with kids.

So the notion that the women are submissive and weak is BS. My sister has a Masters in nursing. My SIL has masters in accounting and teaches at college. My other SIL is on the school board. I grew up listening to my mom argue with dad. My wife argued with me. I had no control, and she controlled the sex.

Sure there are jerks in Mormonism, but same in the outside world. There is quite a bit of bigotry and generalizations against Mormon men.

You would think as bad as the church sounds for women, and all the oppression, there wouldn't be any women there, but turns out they like it more than the guys. They get a lot of benefits from it, even if it does take some sacrifice, just like anywhere else in life.

Could be this guy isn't as committed to church as you think. Would be interesting to have a conversation about religion, and see what he thinks of non-believers. Most the people on this board saying he is brainwashed, including me, were once brainwashed, but overcame it. But somehow we don't think anyone else can?

Anyway, if he's a nice guy as you describe (yes it is possible), I wouldn't write him off. Perhaps if it leads to something, you could re-do your work life so not a conflict. Might be easier to do that than find another guy that is a match.

All depends on what you value.

'Freeman'.. Mormon women have to swear to OBEY their husbands in the temple marriage ceremony. How is that NOT submission? The women are taught and expected to submit to the male priesthood authorities in all things. This includes what happens in the home. And as if to say the women still get a lot out of it because you think they have a say of what happens in the home and get to 'rule' it is absurd and tells a lot about your own attitudes about women and what women want and what their roles should be.

And it is certainly NOT the same as the outside world. Yes, there are assholes outside of the Mormon cult and sexist men and there is a problem still with sexism in our society. But it is worse in a 'church' that preaches that women are second to men in worth and power and in all things, that they are still to blame for what Eve chose in the garden of eden and that they cannot even enter the mormon heaven without a man calling their name?

The fact that there are still a lot of women in the cult, and you say even more than men, is no indication that they are free and happy. If anything it's even more of an indicator of how much harder it is on them than the men since they have been given fewer options throughout their lives than the men and have not been taught that they are worth anything, whereas men have been taught that they are worth so much more. Abused women, which is what Mormon women are, do not have enough self esteem to leave, or question, or understand what is going on. They suffer and put up with the suffering because they don't know anything else or any way out. Just as the men who suffer for their own submissiveness, repression by and obedience to the authorities, may not feel up to leaving. If they believe that they will be damned if they leave, of course they won't. The mind control in the cult is not to be underestimated.

And because you know some women who sometimes speak their minds or get educations and jobs that stay in the cult, doesn't mean they are liberated and doesn't mean they represent the majority of the women. And just because you didn't think you were looking for a submissive wife (I still don't think you understand what that means however based on your post) doesn't mean that this is not what most men do and isn't what is TAUGHT and preached in the cult. It is the doctrine of the cult, it is how the members are indoctrinated.

It took me having enough exposure outside the cult to meet men who treated me as an equal for me to even KNOW that I had been mistreated all those years! You need to have something to compare it to first to start to get it. But it doesn't mean I didn't suffer when I was treated as less than, because I did. I just had a hard time naming what was bothering me.

Why is the antidepressant use in this country HIGHEST among Mormon women? If they are so happy in their housewife roles?

The psychological damage that the cult inflicts on ALL it's members and esp. on women and children (The most helpless members) also should not be underestimated. I am here on this board because even though I physically left the cult over 20 years ago and was able to avoid getting married in the cult, I have suffered because of growing up being told I was only worth anything via the men, via my SERVICE to the men. And that service I tried to provide as never good enough. I never felt worth anything because that's how I was treated by the men and women in the church (the women who came to believe that it was right that they were treated like nothing, that it was their lot to bear and somehow they might win favor again in god's eyes for what Eve did and have a reward in the next life) and what was taught to me by them.

Men that insist that women are fine being treated as they are in this cult do not still understand fully what is going on. Do not understand that the cult IS different from outside the cult where at least there might be the freedom to interact with people who have not been indoctrinated by the cult. Sure there are those out there who could have been indoctrinated by other cults or taught to be sexist in other ways, but to say that inside the church/cult is not different from outside of it is ludicrous.

And men who don't see the sexism are likely to still be sexist themselves and so feel threatened by hearing it so plainly stated.

All the men I have met who truly believe in equality for women are able to see that women have it worse than them in society and that they especially have it worse in certain groups, like the Mormon cult where polygamy was practiced in the early days, is still considered god's law and the law of their heaven (to be practiced again in the next life), where women are made to swear OBEDIENCE to their husbands when they marry, and where all of the doctrine tells them they are inferior to men.. and these men (the non sexist ones I have met) do not feel threatened and defensive when the truth about sexism is told.

Because this is a coworker, I'd advise NOT handling it in any way at all. It's entirely possible that the feelings were mutual and this guy is making an effort to keep things on a professional level. You should never shit where you eat. Do not date coworkers. Ever. Respect the boundaries this guy puts up, and just as well you should expect him to respect yours.

Stop thinking of him as dating material and pretend he's some old, fat, disgusting, nasty man -- whom you enjoy working with because he's kind and a good, hard worker. I think what you should be striving for is to de-sexualize your job. You should be thinking about the work at hand, not worrying about why your coworker isn't reciprocating your flirting.

I don't think you read my questions correctly. At all.

I'm sorry my response comes across as tone deaf, because I did read your questions. They're right here:

"But how can I finally get to the bottom of this and clear the air if he won’t have an honest adult conversation with me? A hard truth would be much easier to take than the constant mixed signals. Is my only option to just forget it all and limit our discussions to projects only?

Any insights from those more experienced with Mormon relationships? Could his religion be a factor here?"

My point was you cannot get to the bottom of this and clear the air (1st question), and your only option is to just forget it all and limit discussions to projects only (2nd question), which is what I just posted above. As for your last question, I think that goes without saying, of course religion is a factor here.

Here's my take...

First of all, it's not a good idea to date co-workers. It's not easy to concentrate on your job when your head is in the clouds, and if you break up, working together will be REALLY unpleasant, not to mention insane jealousy if he starts paying attention to another co-worker. Definitely avoid office romance.

As far as the hot/cold treatment goes, I went out with mormon guys like that. Seems that they liked the chase, but if the physical part of the relationship became too intense, their priesthood guilt got to them and they'd treat me like an evil temptress and had to punish me for their feelings of arousal. In your case, he could be having "unchaste" thoughts about you that is creating guilt. He's redeeming himself by punishing you for putting thoughts into his head. By treating you badly he's showing God that he is faithful.

Lastly, and this is a little harsh - perhaps you are getting on his nerves. You said you spend a lot of time together, traveling, etc. I know I have very low tolerance for people when traveling together or spending too much time with just about anyone. Maybe it takes a lot of energy for him to be nice to you and not blow his top - not that there's anything wrong with you, but he could just be annoyed by little things because he's reached his saturation point having spent so much time with you. After three days with a person, whether it's family or close friends, I just about go crazy and need my space.

My advise to you would be to rid your brain of feelings of attraction for this guy. Keep your relationship on a professional level.

OP again. I think we’ve pretty much exhausted this thread, and again, I really do appreciate all the advice. The one recurring theme I want to address is this idea that you should never date coworkers. I assume many of you also work in mixed-gender environments in the 21st century and understand that dating at work is commonplace. I certainly wouldn’t recommend that anyone go to work looking to meet a significant other, but it does happen. My own parents met at work 30+ years ago and are still blissfully happy.

I work in an intense, high-stress industry with long days, late nights, and lots of travel, where friendships and romantic relationships form very naturally. I know couples at work who have dated and broken up, who are happily married, who were married and divorced, and all have continued to maintain productive professional relationships throughout.

I, for one, can’t imagine spending the majority of my waking hours in an environment where you’re expected to check your humanity at the office door and work like emotionless robots day in and day out. Many of my closest friends (male and female) are ex-coworkers I got to know through our time in the trenches. Not to mention that working together gives you the opportunity to get to know the other person at his or her best and worst before you decide if you’d be interested in dating them.

Does the more informal environment I work in require a higher level of emotional intelligence and maturity? Maybe. Does it sometimes lead to messiness like my current situation? Yep. But that’s life. I don’t think anyone I work with would want it any other way. So please don’t be so quick to judge others on that point.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2017 05:05PM by inovermyhead.

Not sure why you're asking for advise then... seems like you've got it all figured out! Good luck to you!

heartache Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> As far as the hot/cold treatment goes, I went out
> with mormon guys like that. Seems that they liked
> the chase, but if the physical part of the
> relationship became too intense, their priesthood
> guilt got to them and they'd treat me like an evil temptress >and had to punish me for their arousal.

You called, it heartache.

OP--You have said many things in this thread. And you have a right to believe what you want. However, there is one point that you made that I have a real problem with and that was when you blamed yourself for his issues stating you had made it "harder for him."
No. He's a grown man (presumably.) He is responsible for his actions. You are not to blame. I (and I think I'm echoing others who have chimed in,) think he is playing games with you.

Honestly, I know you're sick of this thread. I think that's likely because you're not ready to hear what people have been telling you. That's fine. It's a process. I hope you come back in a few months and reread the thread when you are ready.

Once again, good luck.

as it is about romance between individuals of conflicting religious backgrounds.

Religious differences is a major reason for breakups and divorce unlike workplace friendships.

Mormonism is one religion that exaggerates and pushes these differences to the hilt causing family feuds and long term strife. That's what this thread is about.

I've know of many happy unions between people who met on the job. I know of very few if any happy unions between believing mormons and those who choose not to join the mormon religion.

"The problem now is that he continues to run really hot and cold. One day we’re friends, the next he’s treating me like the enemy, and the daily emotional roller coaster is crushing me. I’m not in a position to change jobs right now, and I don’t know that I’d want to stop working with him even if I could. But how can I finally get to the bottom of this and clear the air if he won’t have an honest adult conversation with me? A hard truth would be much easier to take than the constant mixed signals. Is my only option to just forget it all and limit our discussions to projects only?"

You can't fix this. HE'S the one who's acting weird. The fact that you are trying to ease this situation this makes you vulnerable to being treating very badly by him--even if it's not intentional. He's being a jerk.

If there is a way to make it clear that YOU aren't up for a relationship, I think it could help your situation. And maybe you both can just get back to a normal working relationship with strong boundaries. Heck, maybe even pursue the idea of looking for another relationship so that you are occupied emotionally elsewhere (and make sure he knows it).

"Any insights from those more experienced with Mormon relationships? Could his religion be a factor here?"

Religion absolutely is a factor. You know there is chemistry. You've felt it, he's felt it. But he's basically told you this can't go anywhere. But the inconsistency tells me he's fighting his feelings.

My opinion: even if he left Mormonism, I think he would treat you like crap in a relationship. Because that's basically what he's doing now. This guy is not a keeper.

"If there is a way to make it clear that YOU aren't up for a relationship..."

Brilliant, imaworkinonit.

How, though? Lying, like saying she's met someone, is no good. Maybe make it known that she is looking on dating sites, and arrange for "private" time away from him for a drink or something while travelling.

I would hate for her to address it directly, inly to have him respond in SOP Mo denial mode,"Oh, you must have misunderstood me..."

Perhaps the best way would just to be pleasant and professional, but emotionally unavailable:

Don't share anything remotely personal, and don't engage in the conversation if he does (don't act anything other than politely interested, and find an excuse to end the conversation: take a call, go get a drink, or whatever). Also, try to redirect the conversation back to work. Build an emotional boundary, but make it subtle, polite, and certainly don't come off as hostile.

Maybe he's just trying to keep work separate from romance. Maybe the "cold" is him thinking you are too attached when he's just trying to work well with others. In your shoes, I'd back off and just do business.

I didn't date many mormons. But the hot and cold thing applies to any relationship. It's a control mechanism. You back away so he gets hot to attract you back. You start paying more attention, maybe even flirting, so he goes cold. Which make you back off, so he gets hot again.

It's a vicious cycle and the effect is to gaslight the other person till they don't trust their ability to assess what the relationship even is.

I believe that's why he can't have an adult conversation about it. He doesn't want you to know what the end game is, in order to keep you dangling.