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Posted by: Lori C ( )
Date: August 08, 2017 05:33PM

Of all the things that stood out to me today regarding the latest leaks of the Priesthood Meeting in Layton, this section did the most.

I read the entire leak from the position of a woman and that of a Young Woman in the church and what she had to look forward to as a "married" LDS woman.

In this section we learn the three things the church is most interested in.

1. A strong and faithful marriage. And a willingness for the parents to sacrifice anything necessary to raise Mormon children to keep the interests of the church alive.

What things are usually required for a woman to "sacrifice"? Post High School Education, gainful employment/career, fulfilling goals, travel, mental health, autonomy, freedom, financial security and personal wealth and power.

2. "We care that the Priesthood is in the home". Not to help with dishes, or share the common currency of the daily domestic tasks in rearing your children from a position of equality and to assist in both partners success, but to simply "teach and testify" and apparently after he does that he sits down to a meal prepared by his wife. Then he is done. They want the men to feel and excercise his "power"...and clearly that power cannot exist without someone to have power over...and that would the be the women and children.

They do not care that the woman is in the home, other than to do all the daily tasks the sustain life. Women are not even mentioned at all in the 3 things they are even concerned about.

3. The Youth of the church. They want to "insulate and indoctrinate" them. The men to be the head of their homes, and have great careers and serve endlessly in the church, and the girls to give up everything they ever wanted to stay at home and make the males lives as easy and comfortable as possible. And the hell with the ambition of the girls. The absolute hell with it.

One of the major things that struck me in this leak was the sheer mathematics in the amount of hours physically and mental/energy hours the church demands of the men. Quorum meetings, meetings with members for various reasons, meetings with missionaries...being Bishops, EQP, and everything in between...ON TOP OF...working a 40 hour work week.

So again, from a females point of view, she spends her entire day....and most evenings alone. Basically abandoned, neglected. She is left with the children, the shopping, the cooking, cleaning, breaking up fights, managing the house and never having the break she needs to further her ambitions at all. He may come home late into the evening and be exhausted only to start again the next day.

Seriously....ladies. Please. Is it just me who sees this entire system as a THEFT against your entire LIFE? While one speaker gave lip service to having your wife and kids being their "first assignment"....EVERYTHING ELSE was about the men being away on EVERY OTHER ASSIGNMENT POSSIBLE!

Ladies, I find this lack of equality and respect appalling and I find nothing remotely spiritual, or fulfilling in the lack of partnership, respect and mutual care and compassion towards our sex. There is just no way around this. It is there in black and white. We as women are not even thought about other than to brainwash us in our youth to live our "role" that uses us up and only benefits the male members of this church.

I hope you read this with the same amount of anger and contempt and take back your power.

We are not even thought of. The men just want more power and we...are just the unpaid domestic help not worthy of a mention.

Let that sink in...…/Utah_Layton_Priesthood_Leadership_…

It's on page 5, btw.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: August 08, 2017 08:17PM

Thanks for the link, Lori.
Talk about "all about the boys."

Some other thoughts...

Perry said:

"Faith is waning in our country. ... It is appalling to see the erosion was have from deacons to teachers, teachers to priests, and priests to Elders..."

Yep, they're losing 'em. Big time. Good!

Perry said:

"The world looks to the Priesthood and they look to us to step up and fight."

No, Tom, the world doesn't look to you. The world ignores you and your "priesthood." Because you're a bunch of ignorant misogynistic asses. The world -- including your own young men -- is leaving you behind. Good!

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Posted by: peculiargifts ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 12:18AM


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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 01:09AM

If you're finished being uppity, how's about you go make me a sammich.

What do you expect from a church stuck in the 1950s? It's a disgrace. Hopefully TSCC will feel the wrath of all the women it's screwed over.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 09:25AM

"Is it just me who sees this entire system as a THEFT against your entire LIFE?"

Oh no, you are not the only one who sees it that way. Frankly, marriage looks a lot like that to me outside of the mormon church as well. I have never married because I had dreams and goals. I did not want to subsume my identity, my autonomy, my talents, skills, hopes and dreams to some asshole who would just treat me like a maid/cook/waitress/nanny/hooker.

And I love that you pointed out, that, according to the mormon system of doing things, women are basically left home alone all day and most of the evenings. And most of the weekends. Sunday is shot, especially if the husband has any sort of high-ranking calling at all -- he'll be in meetings all day. Hell, might as well be single. I'd rather die alone than be a married single mom, having never explored all the things I could achieve.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 09:52AM

dogzilla Wrote:
> I did not
> want to subsume my identity, my autonomy, my
> talents, skills, hopes and dreams to some asshole
> who would just treat me like a
> maid/cook/waitress/nanny/hooker.

I know there are men who insist their marriages be that way...but not all of us do. :)

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: August 10, 2017 04:30PM

NOT ALL LIKE THAT-ers: so don't tell us, tell THEM!

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: August 10, 2017 05:23PM

It's true 'Hie' there are actually good men out there who treat women as equals, I know because I found one. But I can tell you it was a very hard find! And he is certainly not nor ever was Mormon or religious at all and I think that helps. The men I dated after leaving the cult, well the worst were the religious ones. I had thought, incorrectly it was just Mormonism that was so hard on women, I thought maybe some other religions were better.. And I am sure many ARE better.. but in my experience I did not find any religious men to treat me better than TBM men had.

But I also think I was attracted to those types of men due to my training. It took a very long time to free myself from the indoctrination in order to be in a place of high enough self esteem to even NOTICE nice men! So there could be more of them out there than I was ever able to notice before I starting to care about myself more. And I think it's difficult for a lot of exMo women to get into healthy relationships because they've been so screwed up psychologically by the cult it's near impossible to do. But clearly by some of the posts I find on this board, there are many women who've been able to. But sounds like after they went through a lot of trials with abusive men first.

But I do agree also with Dogzilla that I'd rather be on my own than have to play any of those roles and be a 'married single mom' as she put it.

and it was because I finally said, 'hell no!' to being mistreated and vowed I would live alone forever rather than put up with anymore BS from men who can't appreciate me and treat me as an equal.. well of course that's when I met my current partner of 4 years (my longest relationship so far and going strong!) when I was clear what I was worth and how I expected to be treated.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 10:43AM

My wife and I have a 50-50 marriage. She tells me what she wants, and I do it! :>)

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 02:45PM

Well, we are glad that arrangement works for you.

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Posted by: luckylucas ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 11:25AM

"Is it just me who sees this entire system as a THEFT against your entire LIFE?"

No, I always have the idea that the church control of my personal relationship is something I wasn't going to tolerate and the idea of having a robot wife was unattractive to me (I guess I think like that because I was raised in a house where my mum was the head of the family and she was very good at it).
But, the worst thing about the position/role of the women in the church is that women appreciate more a "Worthy RM" than a man who really appreciate them (even if he is an active member) and pressure other women to do exactly the same, because everything must be done in the God's perfect way in TSCC, and if something bad happens it's always your fault.
The truth is that Mormonism is bad for everyone (specially for women) and the so-called "Priesthood" is only a blessing for abusive men who like to feel superior but for the other men like me, the priesthood is only a magic sword over your head that is all the time saying you are not good enough (especially when your ward is struggling with attendance)

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: August 10, 2017 05:15PM

Absolutely agree with this, thank you!

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 02:27PM

Mormon men can be so difficult to work with in the workplace.
This document explains exactly why.

All non-members and women need to read this if they are working with an active mormon male.

It also reaffirms to me why it is so difficult to communicate with my TBM brothers on equal footing. In their cultish minds they will always know better than me.

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Posted by: abby ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 02:49PM

Young single adults, THEIR PARENTS, and the bishop have to decide what is best for them. Oh my hell. I was raised TBM and my own father would have said what the hell am I doing in here if we were all called into the bishops office. She's an adult.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2017 03:03PM by abby.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 03:03PM

Only 40 hours/week at work??.

Who does THAT apply to?

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 02:47PM

Church employees
Federal Government Employees (Clerical, admin, no thrills jobs and even some system admins believe it or not).

Municipality City workers who can't get over time approved.

Most workers have the standard +8 to 10 extra non paid hours you put in to get your job done.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 06:52PM

Oddly, my wife is only too happy to do whatever the men want. It appears as if the more unhappy it makes her, the happier she is about it because the sacrifice of it all brings her closer to God. Or something. It's not like I really know or understand. But she always wanted the life where she stayed home, cooked, cleaned, raised the kids, and obeyed men who had the "priesthood." She has never quit being angry over having to work outside the home when our kids went to university. I guess I'm only saying that some women not only are fine with it, but see it as some sort of virtue.

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Posted by: pollythinks ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 09:07PM

Lori C:'3. "The Youth of the church. They want to 'insulate and indoctrinate' them. The men to be the head of their homes, and have great careers, etc...And the hell with the ambition of the girls. The absolute hell with it".

P: Women can start equality of verbiage by not referring to "the men", while referring to 'the girls'. Instead, use "the men and the women", or the 'boys and the girls'.

Just my two cents. :)

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Posted by: VeganPaladin ( )
Date: August 09, 2017 09:11PM

My wife and I left the church about 6 months ago. We are both 26. I didn't notice, or maybe as a man couldn't notice, that other men wouldn't really talk to her. They would shake my hand and ignore my wife or greet me and not say anything to her. She didn't want to cause a scene so never said anything and I was just oblivious to it. Something I definitely want to improve is seeing the world for what it is. As a white male I have never seen how other people are treated differently and I finally am starting to notice and it's not ok

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: August 10, 2017 05:08PM

Thanks for that. Your attitude is really appreciated by those of us who have been mistreated. It takes courage to stand up and admit there is a problem, esp. when it's one perpetrated by your 'own kind'.. you are right most men just don't notice. the thing is if one hasn't been presented with another way to live and been indoctrinated into certain beliefs than it's very hard to actually see what's going on. Even for the women themselves. They may feel something but can't name it, because they've never been treated any differently. So they soldier on because they don't know what else to do. (and if raised Mormon don't have education or job skills in order to be independent from their husbands and so if their husbands are abusive, it's that much worse and harder for them.)

It wasn't until I was presented with non-sexist treatment by men that I was able to see how I had been mistreated my whole life. It was the most amazing thing to finally see that. Such a relief to understand why I was feeling so badly and to know it was nothing wrong with me but something wrong with how I had been treated and something wrong with how I and my family had been taught.

Think about slavery and how long it took for people to wake up and see that as something wrong. To see that people of other races were equal and had the same needs and feelings as the slave owners did. It took brave men in positions of power to see that what was happening was wrong and to speak out about it.

The same is true today, for women, for minorities, for anyone who is treated as unequal.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 02:50PM

That treatment can also happen to attractive women. They other guy can't be too friendly without hearing about it from his wife as -- you are a flirt.

If the wife is not so attractive, they might actually get more talk time BUT not always.

There isn't a good answer as many times it is nuanced but YES women are talked about as if they are present or within ear distance between the two dicks talking.

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Posted by: incognitotoday ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 06:09PM

It's about love.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2017 06:11PM by incognitotoday.

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: August 10, 2017 05:02PM

Exactly! Couldn't agree more with every point you have made.

My sisters are TBM and married to Mormons and are mostly on their owns all day and a lot of the evening too with the kids and no other company.

I was a nanny on a few occasions, for several months at a time and sometimes with very young babies and toddlers. And I can tell you as much as I loved the kids I nearly lost my mind. Just me and the kids all day. And let me tell you 8 hrs with a kid each day is a much MUCH longer 8 hrs. than I've ever spent at any other job in my life.

Talk about feeling isolated and lonely. It's very difficult.

And if that had been my whole life? No other ambitious, nothing for myself? I would have honestly killed myself. I don't see how anyone can do that. Esp. not if you've had any taste of freedom at all.

It may have been because I traveled at a young age (in one case to be a nanny in another country since those were the only skills I had at the time!) that I left TSCC early. It was so SO hard to go back to BYU Provo Utah after a summer in Europe, even when I Was still basically TBM. I just couldn't do it.

Just waiting for 'Free Man's' response to your post. If he does try not to get as angry as I do at his ignorance. But he thinks that Mormon women have it great, no matter what vast amounts of evidence we post to the contrary.

Apparently it's a great system for women since they 'control' the men and benefit financially without having to work. (These are NOT my thoughts but those of men like 'Free Man' who are stuck in very sexist mind sets and have no understanding of the abuse women endure by men in and out of TSCC, but especially IN it).

I was thinking about one of his comments reading your post, about women just using men for money, since my sisters in particular are quite impoverished. And we grew up that way, always struggling financially, barely getting by. After all there were 7 kids to feed. And of course tithing to pay and if there ever was any surplus, guess who it went to? That's right it went to daddy because daddy 'needed' a fancy car for his work, and a better suit and whatever other extras for him, since he was the important bread winner and needed to keep up appearances so he could benefit the rest of us with more pay.

But did that ever happen? No. When he did make more, we were not benefitted, he was. My mother suffered so much for so long, just wanting the littlest things and not getting them. Or only getting them after a lot of pleading and humiliation. (A lot like Brigham Young's plural wives, from what I've read, not much difference still, even though not in a polygamous marriages, Mormon women still have the same low status and abusive treatment.)

Did I get any money for schooling. No. I had to pay my way. Did my brothers get financial support. Yes, some, because THEY were men and had families started already and so more important than me and my needs. Did they get much? No. My dad squandered the money when he finally made it because he was too naive and trusting (Gee guess why?) and got swindled (probably by other mormons too).

Anyway we, the girls, the wife, the kids, were like nothing compared to my dad. Everything was about him and his needs and we were there to serve him. I was working in the home already as soon as I could walk, but the boys got special treatment.

It's total enslavement and a complete theft of a woman's life. Anyone who says otherwise is just ignorant or really believes that women don't have other needs or ambitions.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: August 10, 2017 10:04PM

If we're going to generalize about men all being jerks in the church, then we can generalize about women taking money from men.

How many stories do you want?

How about my wife. She was a convert to the church in college because she wanted a stable family life. She had kids and stayed home with them and did not want to work. When the kids got older (junior high), I asked her to go to work and help out with finances and she got angry. Came home several times to find her doing crafts with the ward sisters. Very oppressed, indeed.

I recall being out as EQP most evenings with my wife at home. Don't recall any complaints. I think she actually liked our kids so it didn't bother her. She also had ward friends to share childcare duties with. You don't have to stay home alone.

How about my 2 daughters, raised out of the church. I pushed them to get degrees, which they did with honors. When they were in the later stages of school, I overheard them saying to each other that what they really wanted was to stay home and have babies. Which is what they are doing.

So I keep reading about the poor women who have to have babies. Sure there are women who don't want babies, just as there are men who don't want to earn a living. But to generalize that the women in church are oppressed because they are home with children is BS.

I just don't think women are as stupid as most here believe. If life in church is really that bad, why are so many women that committed? Haven't you read any stories here of guys trying to get their wives out of the church?

My cousin's wife divorced him when he left the church, taking the 5 kids.

Another cousin's wife divorced him when he couldn't support the lifestyle she grew up in.

A nephew's wife divorced him when he couldn't support the lifestyle she grew up in.

My SIL has masters in accounting and teaches at college.

My sister has masters in nursing.

My other SIL is on school board.

The priesthood power has never got me any sex.

So yeah, women are poor victims and all the men, including every guy on this site who were once active, are abusive.

Turns out, victimhood gets you more benefits and power, which is why so many want in on it. Racism, sexism, you name it - big money!

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Posted by: bluebutterfly ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 03:19PM

Shapeshifter, I often relate to your posts so well. I'm the oldest girl of 7. My brothers got college help from my parents. Me? Nada. Zip. Zilch. I'm the only female in the family who finished college.

Part of the problem here is that the church indoctrinates women to think they must stay home and be happy about it. Some love it because they are lazy (my sister). Others loathe it but pretend to love it (my other sister). I recall my TBM mother saying to me about 7 or 8 years ago that she felt unfulfilled in life. I thought, how tragic. She did go to college and worked for a few years before meeting my dad. Once they got married it was babies, church, housework. Repeat.

Not all women are the same. I work part-time to keep my sanity and so that I can do something that is just my gig. The rest of my waking hours are taking care of the family and household. Staying home with the kids all day everyday is not my idea of fun.

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Posted by: midwestanon ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 10:30AM

I think what the original post is getting at is not that women are entitled to a choice and whether or not they want to stay home and be mothers and such- it's that the church expects them to make the 'mormon' choice and, yes, women are frequently browbeaten and pressured into staying at home and being a homemaker regardless of their feelings in the matter, whether in a literal sense of their being forbidden by the men in their family to work or pigeon-holed into marriage and pregnancy, or in a more General sense where women are discouraged from working and encouraged to marry and have kids.

Hope that makes sense. Obviously there are going to be women who want to live the Mormon dream of having lots of kids and staying at home. I know women who never wanted to do anything more than that. I think some are happy and content with it, and I think some are unhappy and not content with it.

My sister, for example, is not married, does not have children, and works as a school teacher, but I'm pretty sure all she ever really wanted to do was get married and have kids. She has a good life and makes enough for what she needs and wants, but I don't think she's as happy as she could be, because I think she wants the typical Mormon woman life. Of course, there is the chance that she could do that and be happier, or do that and fine she's very unhappy. She does what she does out of necessity.

So it's just like life everywhere else in the world that isn't Mormon, probably most people aren't happy but a few people are.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2017 10:34AM by midwestanon.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 02:44PM

How is this a leak?

That sounds like the church's young women modus operandi for that last 150+ years.

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