I visited him this weekend and we talked about the church.
He knows most of the problems with church history, BofA, BofM, etc. because he tried to help me through my faith crisis nine years ago. He is a fantastic brother and we are able to talk openly about everything. Yesterday (Sunday) we were out for a drive and the church came up, and one of his first comments to me was, “People are leaving in droves.”
He lives in the southern part of the Salt Lake valley in an affluent neighborhood that I would guess is at least 90% Mormon. He knows I am interested in how the church is dealing with people losing their testimonies as they find out about the real history and lack of evidence for their truth claims. He finally vocalized what I knew he has known for a while: That JS lied, and the church isn’t what it says it is.
He has discovered the essays and those also came up. I tried to keep the conversation positive by saying I was glad they are addressing some of the more difficult issues. He responds by saying that the essays were not very convincing, and there were some things that were completely indefensible. For instance he said straight up, “The BofA is a 100% fraud. There is no way around that.”
I told him I was glad the church admitted that withholding the priesthood was due to the prejudice of men and not from god, but I still wish they would address the skin color of Native Americans. He responded right away, “They can’t do that. It is an important part of the Book of Mormon. (pause) It’s actually the whole story line.”
I asked if he knew of any bishops using a 5th Sunday combined RS/priesthood lesson to deal with people leaving the church. He quickly responded, “Thay wouldn’t do that. It would open up a question and answer time, and they wouldn’t want that. They might address it from the pulpit but not where people would ask questions.”
He is dealing with these things by separating faith in the church from faith in god and Jesus. He has come to peace with the lies but hasn’t had his next temple recommend interview. So far he has not been in a position where he has had to choose between lying and admitting his lack of faith in the restoration. He said he will not lie, so he is not looking forward to his next temple recommend interview.
The next best part of our time together yesterday (Sunday) was that he asked if I wanted to go to Starbucks for coffee before he had to go back home to get ready for church. I am happy his faith crisis hasn’t been as traumatic as mine was.
My elderly parents let slip that they knew people were leaving in droves. My mother immediately pointed out that this was prophesied to be that way in the last days, so the hemorrhaging of members only goes to prove the church even truer than it was before.
That line of reasoning--don't be fooled by the ways of men--works very well on many. The lofty goal of maintaining your faith against all fact to the contrary is a challenge many want to meet so they can gain their reward.
Good for your brother. Inner strength and the courage of your convictions are the real enemies of Mormonism.
It is helpful to have a scatter gun approach to prophesy. That way you can claim vindication no matte what happens.
The church is a great stone rolling forth to fill the earth. In the last days there will be a great falling away as the wheat is separated from the chaff.
It doesn't really matter what happens since either scenario shows that the church is led by prophets.
> That line of reasoning--don't be fooled by the > ways of men--works very well on many. The lofty > goal of maintaining your faith against all fact to > the contrary is a challenge many want to meet so > they can gain their reward.
I call this the Waterloo Strategy, but one could also name it after Raqqa, Berlin, or Waco.
I forgot to mention something else he told me. Nine years ago when he was sincerely trying to help me through my faith crisis he went to his priesthood leader for help.
Did they give him wise counsel? No
Did they point him toward information sources that might help? No
They asked him to speak in Stake Conference on the subject.
Interesting strategy. Get the questioners concentrating on helping others keep the faith? Distract and re-focus.
Reminds me of the Mormons who say, "Yeah, I've had those doubts but my faith was stronger," as a way to discount the fact that you are going with the facts.
It seems that your brother is seeking the Middle Way, accepting some but not all of the gospel and staying in the community on his own terms. I sincerely wish him success.
In my experience there are a few ways in which the Middle Way is unsustainable, one or two of which rear their ugly heads for most people. The first is the statement by Hinckley and others that it is black-and-white, all-or-nothing. The church, in short, doesn't want cafeteria Mormons. Second, if you have children you usually have to address the indoctrination head on. It is one thing to find stability as a cafeteria Mormon as adult, quite another to watch your children force-fed falsehoods. Third, you can reach an accommodation with your ward and stake and then have some new bishop or stake president appointed who is so gung ho that he will rock your world completely.
Items two and three were huge for me. I couldn't handle the indoctrination of my children and a new bishop felt that my separate peace was unacceptable and that, as God's instrument, he was going to drive me back into full compliance. He literally thought the force of his personality and testimony would do the trick.
Good luck to your brother and congratulations on having such a great family!
The middle way. I remember in my first conversations with Grant Palmer, after I had left CES and he had written his book (An Insider's View of Mormon Origins). He was sure that he could stay in the church and guide it toward believing in Christ, and dropping all the historical lies (inaccuracies).
Number one, it takes too much energy to fight the constant inner battle of cognitive dissonance.
Number two, the church leaders will force you to leave if you don't fully re-commit to the church (at least in the case of guys like Grant and me). So they threaten to X you or you leave first.
Yes. I have experienced that, too, albeit at a local level. As soon as the authorities know where you stand and that you won't budge, they punish. I have a brother who was a bishop: same story. He got on the wrong side of the stake president and resigned as the church court approached.
Did you notice that they didn't ex Grant Palmer until he was out of the spotlight? I thought that was very revealing. There is no consistent policy, it's all done on a case-by-case basis based solely on what the pros and cons are regarding impact to the church's image.
The thing about discovery is that learning something as key to Mormon dogma like the BoA is a fraud, unravels all the other lies and falsehoods Smith perpetrated on his followers to commit fraud.
Either the church is 100% true, or 100% false. There is no alternative but fraud, given the enormity of the lies and half-truths Smith inflicted on his sincere but deluded following.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2017 03:23PM by Amyjo.
I'm going through a phase of deep regret that I was ever stupid enough to fall for Mormonism and eagerly convert, convinced that all was going to work out as a shining example to the rest of the world.
My husband and I were crazy enough to heed President Kimball when he strongly advised everyone to have babies long before we were finished with education. It turned into a disaster, not any "shining example" to the rest of the world. And disaster or not, we kept paying our tithing!
We Baby Boomers were conned, indeed. My young adulthood was a time of great expansion for the LDS church. It stopped as soon as internet access was wide enough among us. But I was one of the stupid ones who kept skirting around the negative Mormon issues. I couldn't bear to face that I had wasted my best years following false prophets and a ridiculous belief system. Finally in early 2015, I allowed the truth to sink in and left the LDS behind forever. How wonderful was that 10% raise!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2017 03:15PM by brigidbarnes.
I feel like my whole life was a waste and ruined because of that church you are not alone. I only hope things continue to get better from here on out and to never be fooled or controlled ever again for the rest of my days.
I hope that i can pull it off just getting far away enough to restart a real life has been very difficult but i heard that it takes about 5 to 10 years to be somewhat normal and thats kind of depressing but i think it will all be worth it.
Amen to the regret. I have done a ton of that. I felt so stupid and gullible. But don't dwell on it. Just point your nose forward and be the best you can be from here on out.
To think the "burning in the bosom" counsel happened because Oliver Cowdery tried to receive revelation through a divining rod! At least that's what I remember reading in one of my many searches. We really thought that this was the Holy Ghost, when it really is associated with magic!
@brigidbarnes we are struggling financially because the money that should have gone towards retirement and a saving account, but instead it went to tithe, being promised we would be blessed with all things finance. Wrong... For this I am angry, now I will be working until I am 67+. While the church will not so much as give any food from the storehouse to even my disabled, vet brother. I would love to meet any of the 15 in person.
I have heard quite a few complaints from disabled Mormons that they can't get any LDS welfare help, even after years of having made faithful payments of tithes and fast offerings. I have also heard that the Q15 are pressuring the BP's to send them as much of the fast offering funds as possible. It's supposedly to make welfare dispersal more efficient, but I think we know the real story.
GNPE Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > LET'S GO SHOPPING! > -Saddly, that might be the quote he's remembered > for the Most
GNPE, you made something stick in my brain. For me, it's no longer LDS (Latter-Day Saints)--it's LGS (Let's Go Shopping!).
Many are still in because they want to inherit from their parents. Once they are freed from that many will have no other reason to stay. The sad part is that these people have gotten their children involved in it.
Excuse me. Did you imply I made this up? Wow. I assure you I am not that childish or have that much time to waste. There is nothing unusual about this. Experiences like this have become common place in my world. I had a similar conversation with my neighbor just a month or two ago, which I posted about, and a Mormon friend and I went fishing a few weeks ago, and he told me he and his wife are not going back to church because they no longer believe. It's happening all around me. If this brother leaves the church he will be the last of four siblings to leave. I am interested to know where you live and if you still have friends and family in the church.
My former bishop ran into me one day a year ago and we got talking about the non=truths in the BofA and BofM. He laughed at me and stated that he knew all along that these things were not truths but just parables used by all religions and by Jesus to promote good behavior. They were simple stories of faith but not true to life. He said I was silly to have taken them so seriously (as if he never did). He is a bright guy and has found a way to rationalize all the things that he doesn't know how to justify. He claimed to know nothing about J. Smith jr.s many plural marriages. I think he is purposely avoiding studying or asking questions because he so desperately wants to be in the one true church. He has been a bishop and a SP and I think he loves the status he has as well as the close ties and friendships in the church. He also knows it would wreak havoc with his marriage and kids because they are very tBM due to his priesthood authority.
"There is none so blind as he who will not see."
Just like Bednar, I don't know how this guy lives with himself.
Yes! That's what I thought when I left. Funny isn't it?
So if it is the most elect who are leaving, what does that make the ones who are staying? Simple reasoning would tell you that it's the lowly and stupid. Why would I want to stay with them? And if the very elect are the easiest to deceive then why are they the elect? Mormonism seems stupid no matter how you look at it.
You and your brother are obviously intelligent thinkers and prepared to face the issues - a fairly rare breed in church circles. I've always been prepared to discuss why I left the church ; the problem is that TBMs who are confident and knowledgable enough to do this with me are way too difficult to find.
I wonder if people will eventually go the way of the East Coast.
Just a thought, but when your livelihood depends on your religious affiliation as it did in many US Colonial cities, you are pressured to stay in the faith of the majority or convert.
Maybe, just maybe, as more people leave, the "I will be destroyed if I leave" fear will subside.
There is power in numbers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2017 01:34PM by Beth.