...regions of the world with no positive outcome and the perpetuation of poverty and incredible childhood mortality???

You put rats in a maze and condition them and after a while even they learn what's good for them and what's not.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for this question but I honestly just haven't been able to grasp an understanding of it.

Is it just as simple as saying these people truly don't understand where babies come from???

Yet somehow I am the one who is made to feel guilty for not helping out when "those" commercials flash across a TV screen.

Or so it seems to me...

In most of these regions, the mass of the general population has little or no access to education (including education about their own bodies and how their bodies function), and little or no access to effective birth control. (Reliable condoms are often more expensive than life essentials such as food...and may be rejected for cultural or religious reasons, even if they are (technically) available.)

Rapists (most especially in non-First World countries) very seldom use condoms, and in far too many countries, rape is a significant cause of pregnancy...

...most especially in countries without "toilet facilities" within, or close to, residences. When women in these countries have to "go to the bathroom," they have to go to fields or forests or alleyways (etc.) to do this, and rapists hang about these areas to take advantage of the steady and plentiful supply of easily overcome victims.

There is a very popular film running in India right now, titled "Toilet: A Love Story," about a new woman resident, in a village where the women, as evening is coming on, join together, as a group, to go to the fields so they can "go to the bathroom," because rapists will, if possible, avoid a group of women (rather than a woman alone), and this part of the film is true to facts over all the non-First World areas on the planet where women have to go "outside"/away from their homes, to urinate and defecate.

The plot of the film is that a woman from a more urbanized (has plumbing) area and family is married into a family from the village, and she is immediately invited into the evening "women's group," for her safety. She is appalled that there are no toilet facilities in her new family's house, and she goes on a campaign to have a toilet installed somewhere on the premises, either in the house itself, or in the immediately surrounding area (the "patio," it sounds like in our terms).

In this village, this becomes a revolutionary act for all kinds of reasons: it is anti-patriarchal, it is considered (by her new father-in-law) to be anti-religious ("you don't 'go to the bathroom' in the same place where you worship!"), and is generally upsetting to the village social order on a variety of levels that are difficult for us, in our culture, to understand.

In this village, this really is a truly revolutionary act---upsetting "the way things are [and "should" be]," going back, literally, thousands of years in that village's history.

"Toilet: A Love Story" is a decided success on the sub-continent film charts right at this moment, and it is obviously resonating in a huge way with large population groups there.

The planetary problem comes down largely to:

In many areas of the world, there is a great deal of ignorance about how pregnancy occurs in the first place, let alone how it can be avoided.

Even when it COULD be avoided by use of condoms (birth control pills, etc.), these items are usually far out of practical reach for millions of people who are trying to keep their children from malnutrition and, too often, outright starvation.

Rape is commonplace in vast areas of the world (as is incest of all kinds).

In many areas, a woman's primary duty is to reproduce so that there will be people to work in the "family business"---in agriculture, in manufacturing small goods, whatever. If a woman does not reproduce (or reproduce "enough") she can be divorced and/or cast out of her new family, and her village, and her general area---which means, for most women in this position, she dies of starvation (etc.) because there is no place for her elsewhere in that country's economy.

As used to be true in our own, American, culture (and was still true, in some rural areas, into the late 1800s and then into the new century), one of the most important "jobs" of a married woman is to produce new "farmhands" to "man" (literally!) the family's source of income.

This may make no sense at all in a given country's panoramic economic overview, but it makes COMPLETE sense to a given poor family, in a given poor area.

Education about human reproduction, and condoms (birth control pills, etc.) helps a great deal, but most countries are economically unable to provide this for their nationals, and in addition, most of these countries are culturally (and perhaps religiously) opposed to changing the status quo because (like an indoor toilet that women can use without going to unprotected areas outside the home) it upends the accepted social order and "the way things have always been done" in that area.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2017 11:15PM by Tevai.

Thanks Tevai for taking the time to share that.

Very enlightening and informative.

It has made me take a pause in my thoughts about said topic for further understanding.

But are we past the point of no-return in those ares is my main concern.

Appreciate you being there!

Or so it seems to me...

Thanks! So informative. I knew there was a reason women feel instinctively that we need to go to the bathroom together. To deter rapists.

Why do people in first world countries keep having babies? Why do rats in mazes keep having babies? Animal instinct. It makes me laugh when I see posts like these. How many children do you have?Do you think the world is a better place because of you and yours?

Thanks for your input Anonish.

FYI...married 29 years...we're child-free by choice.

I do admit we've become a fabulous Aunt & Uncle to our extended TBM families by being our nephews and nieces "favorites"!

I also do admit it has allowed us freedom to do things together that our extended TBM families will never know or be able to because of their larger families.

Yet of course...I will agree with you that there is a trade-off in most decisions.

Most people ask us, "Well who will take care of you when you're older & need assistance."

But as I watch how my extended TBM families actually "take care" of their in-laws I'm not impressed. Not a whole lot of "there" there if you know what I mean.

So I'll return the favor to you Anonish and ask...

- How many children do you have? Do you think the world is a better place because of you and yours?

Or so it seems to me...

Because we live in a PC world where the truth is no longer welcome. So let the ignorant and poor inherit the earth.

Sam Kinison said what we really should do to help them is send them boxes and Uhual trucks and move them to where it rains so they can grow food.

It is a fact that as poverty goes down in a country, so does birthrate. Industrialized countries have far fewer births per family than in third world countries.

One journalist asked an impoverished woman who had given birth to many children, and they all died, "Would you stop having children if you had access to birth control?" She said, "Absolutely." She stated that she was torn apart watching her newly born children die of malnutrition. Her husband wanted children, and sex, and didn't care what her feelings were because he was the patriarch or master over her.

In impoverished nations there is no such thing as social security, life insurance, or medicare/medicaid. The only insurance people have for someone taking care of them when they can no longer care for themselves is the pressure society puts on children to care for their aged parents. So having as many children as possible increases the odds that at least one will survive to care for his parents.

Religion is another huge factor. In Islam and Catholicism it is considered paramount that women bare children. It is also taught in Catholicism that using birth control is the same as committing abortion and abortion is a sin similar to murder. In many areas there are government and nonprofit health care volunteer agencies that go into villages with birth control and teach women what it is, how to use it, and provide it to them for free. When they leave, the Catholic agencies (I don't know about Islamic agencies) go in immediately after the agencies leave and shame the women into believing they are killing babies and incurring God's wrath by using birth control which is the same as abortion.

Many husbands refuse to use condoms even when they are provided free for varied reasons. Some don't think it is manly. Some do not want to prevent pregnancy and some don't want the hassle of loss of feeling.

I agree with Tevai, that a major part of this problem is the lack of empowerment among women throughout the world. It is a battle that has been fought in the USA for years and is still being fought. Amongst uneducated, impoverished, powerless, and subjugated women everywhere it is not a matter of choice.

Do you have a solution? I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for your input Pooped!

I do not have an answer or solution.

I do not even have an oblique idea as to how to even begin.

I honestly just haven't understood the self-perpetuation of it.

But with Tevai's informational post above I have a little better grasp of it in those certain regions.

It just piqued with me this week as again I saw a list of rare and endangered species of flora & fauna who share this beautiful planet with us humans that seems to be getting longer and longer.

Primarily and in some instances ONLY due to habitat destruction by human populations.

I honestly don't know if there can ever be an answer.

I honestly do fear that we've gone way past the point of no-return.

Just a bit disheartening to me as a lover of GOD (great-out-doors!)

Or so it seems to me...

Plants and animals seem to get it right, whereas humans act like parasites on the land.

confided to me that after delivering, say, three or four babies for an unmarried, welfare mother (they didn't have to identify the father back in those days, and often claimed not to know who it was, anyway) he would just routinely perform a tubal ligation after delivering the baby. No consent, nothing in the medical records, and no more unplanned babies.

I guess there are those who would consider this unethical, but I thought it was heroic.

I'd consider that an act of mercy. People who hoard children despite not being able to adequately care for them are not being considerate of the children they involve in their drama. They are the unethical ones.

There are two answers

First....I knew an old woman from a south American country that had 12 kids. I asked why so many and her reply. .... "we didn't have television"

Second..... lots of these families have kids to take care of them in their old age, to help run the farm or family business or for social or other economic reasons.

Third.... lack of contraception or no belief in same.

Surely it would be a rare species that, absent predators, didn't exhaust its environment. Bacteria in a petri dish, rats in a maze with a limited food supply, rabbits in Australia: overpopulation seems natural. The assumption (if one can speak of genes in that way) must probably be that species will reproduce as much as possible without regard to sustainable. So the conduct you describe would fit the broader organic pattern.

Humans have the potential to behave differently because of their curiously swollen frontal and temporal lobes. And indeed, as Tevai noted, it does appear that wealth and education--particularly the education of women--lowers fertility significantly. I have seen demographic projections indicating that as a result of those factors the total human population will stabilize at 8-9 billion.

That does not answer your other question--namely, whether that population level is past the point of no return in environmental terms. I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to that query although it appears we are hell-bent on finding out.

Just heard on the news that even though ocean levels are rising significantly and coastal communities are acutely aware of the dangers of flooding, humans are still moving to coastal areas at an alarming rate.

Frontal lobes don't seem to work well in many humans!

Cause humans are animals.

Cpete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cause humans are animals.

That's basically it, just like other animals, humans have the biological instinct to reproduce.

I am glad i dont have tv anymore, the guilt has gone down tremendously. I cant save the world while i can barely save myself.

BeenThereDunnThatExMo,

Do you see the population explosion as some kind of natural disaster such as a hurricane which we are powerless to stop? Are YOU doing anything about the population problem besides complaining?

This isn’t rocket science and the people involved aren’t stupid. When you make birth control available to those who previously haven’t had access to it they use it and birth rates come down, period. It’s up to those of us who can afford to provide it to step up.

I give a significant amount of money every month to agencies that provide birth control to those who can least afford it. Basically that’s my “church”. It’s the main evidence I intend to present to God that I deserve to eat in the next life. How’s your case going?

What's so deplorable and overpopulated about Utah? Oh yeah, Briggy's kids. Sorry, you can't fix stupid.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/population

http://luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/#3/77.35/-56.43

This link is posted for information, not donation:

http://www.unfpa.org/resources/issue-7-women-empowerment


It's not enough to say that women need access to birth control. Those women who would opt out of having large families as a means to social and economic security also must be presented alternative means to self-help and self support.

Without a vision of how one might survive a patriarchy without the benefit of bearing a patriarch's large family, an offer of birth control alone must look like a death sentence to these women. In these countries, children are literally a commodity. If one considers the lack of labor laws, if children can wipe themselves, they can work, and produce an income greater than the cost of the rice or beans to feed them. It doesnt matter if it's working the family's source, a third party endeavor or gleaning from a putrid dump. Take into account that such parents would factor in a certain high death rate of offspring, and families will be made large by default.

For those who think that this is not "our problem":

http://time.com/4766624/next-global-security/

Google: "US military global pandemic" for a wealth of documentation. Substitute in the search any federal agency. Imagine what happens in the US if SLOC are severed, if we really must become the isolationists that populists are demanding. I'm not even sure we could keep enough farm vehicles running, then, guess what our children would be doing.

I'm not a doomsday sayer, but dense populations, antibiotic resistance and the cyclic nature of pandemics are a real risk. Throwing money at birth control is a beginning, but barely scratches the surface.

And, I'm aware that among posters, I am preaching to a choir, but not necessarily among readers.

Condoms require the cooperation of the male. Women need to have the power to use contraceptive items (pills, whatever) on their own - with or without the "consent" of the male partner. She needs to be able to take full ownership of her own body. And THAT, I think, may require a ton of new education. It probably goes against the grain of any number of cultures and religions.

Heres another wrinkle we of the privileged society might consider...those who have the children...wanted or not will in two generations take over any given area for better or worse...the immigrants relocating to our area have no belief in birth control and feel gawd determines family size...uh uh....good plan...most long term people here had one to three children...immigrants 5-14 ...so in forty years how many of the original folks will be left...in twenty years a town near by has gone from one percent immigrant to eighty percent immigrant...see how social dynamics can change fairly quickly...it's survival of the fittest...humans might be one of the few species that sees birth as a disease...interesting to ponderize...IMO...this near by town once had a robust Mormon population...now only a few stragglers remain

far from feigning any answer to this question, it is one I have also asked myself many times. My question to you is, why does your OP say you will "probably be flamed for posing the question"?
It is a puzzling one, indeed :(

Oh, I would say I gave the OP a fairly good flaming. I see that he hasn't bothered to defend himself.

I'm fed up with people who complain about a problem they aren't willing to lift a finger or give a dollar to help solve. As far as it being past the point of no return - it isn't. Please read my post.

Hi There got2Breal,

Thanks much for your input.

Point taken...but I do have a life outside of contstantly checking RFM for responses to a post I put up!

Please take a moment to see my earlier responses to "Anonish" & "Pooped".

Perhaps you might have missed the part where I mentioned my spouse & I had NO children by choice.

We did our part!

How about You???

Now you're implying that I'm supposed to take care of or somehow be responsible for all the World's other unintended or illegitimate children???

Or so it seems to me...

As far as my own reproduction, I had 1 child and got sterilized less than a year after. While it is important that we take responsibility for reproduction in our own lives, this country is not where the problem really is.

I give to agencies that operate where the population growth problem is the most severe – Africa, Asia, Latin America. I give to Marie Stopes, Engender Health, and Population Services International – each $100 a month. About every 3 or 4 months I also give an additional $100 to my local Planned Parenthood.

There are 215 million people in the world who want to use a modern method of birth control but do not have access to it due mainly to expense and distance from providers. These are the ones who are already convinced – they don’t need any cultural or religious re-education. This is solvable. Our first duty is to the convinced.

I realize the degree of my commitment is beyond what most would be willing and able to do. Yet it doesn’t cost much to make a difference. The average cost is $7.00 per patient per year. It’s especially important to support these efforts now since so much of US government funding has been cut under the Trump Administration.

Just look back at your own history for the answer.

Only a handful of nations on Earth have relatively well run non-corrupt functioning governments that provide law and order, maintained transportation networks, unbiased courts, and so on.

In many countries around the world family and extended family are your only support system. Tribal kinship is what you count on when there's no government support or no government at all.

Infant mortality is also still very high by modern western standards but less than it once was in developing countries but the social desire to have big families still exists. This is especially true in male dominated patriarchal societies.


https://www.amazon.com/May-You-Mother-Hundred-Sons/dp/0449906140



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2017 12:03AM by anybody.

I used wonder about this myself. After working in non profit medicine in various parts of the world, I realized just how powerful culture is in terms of reproduction. While in Nigeria and Ghana I came to realize that many of the women and young girls are subservient to men - regardless of whether it's a spouse or mate. Sadly, many of these men have as much disregard for the female women as they do in using protection.

IMO, abortions should not only be very accepted but readily available. People talk about being pro-life, but how is allowing a baby to be born in a bad situation "pro-life"? Ironically, the people that are usually so against abortion are the same ones that are so against welfare to take care of these babies. So they are essentially saying "we want you to live, but we will do absolutely nothing to make your lives livable."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2017 01:53PM by Atari.

BeenThere sorry for the slow reply

WE have two Daughters. One Has a 4 year degree, he other is working on it.

I do not think the world is a better place because of me and mine.

I think humans are a parasite on the planet. It will get rid of us one way or another eventually.

I think we are animals and respond to our animal instincts, this is why we procreate, the same as Cock Roaches.

You can plan to sneeze and you can take time to prevent a sneeze, but usually you just let it happen.

Not many people ever think they might be doing something to cause harm when they sneeze.

Also a cheep form of entertainment, so they think.

Very few people will decide to having unprotected sex by force or from a relationship and after spending time to think, oh, if we have a child how will this impact the world population. Why should they even think about that anyway?

The vaccines and experiments run by Governments and private corporations including nano science mixed with food products will eventually sterilize these regions if the powers that be have a say in the matter.

Those same groups think humans are already obsolete and those that can meld with machine are just trash and will be discarded. Brave New World 1930's folks thinking that is our destination sure seem to aim in that direction.


How does India handle 1 billion right now? Certainly, they must eat less and have fewer things or money but their cities sometimes have the modern things that a U.S. city has only in a presented differently. Ultimately, the more people you have more of a strain it is for a country and less money people will make.

HOWEVER, given that Economic warfare has been going on for a long time it's hard to say where these countries would be if certain meddling countries stopped manufacturing coup d'état, dividing political systems, putting in puppet government leaders etc.

Latin American countries and African nations have been under divide and conquer and manipulate campaigns for 300+ years many many different actors.