As expected, it was mostly a get-to-know-you type session. The LDS counselor never said anything to disrespect my beliefs, which was nice, but it's hard to get anywhere when the entire time was pretty much spent becoming familiar with our situation. Still, I'm not convinced that I'm not just wasting my hard-earned money.

For those who didn't follow my other post, and if I didn't explain it, our only problem is that we can't talk to each other about spiritual matters, which are important to us. We've always been able to talk to each other about anything and everything, so this is new and unnerving. She feels that whenever she opens up to me, or addresses my concerns, that I ignore or discredit her. She also feels like she's not scholarly enough to defend the church properly. So she clams up.

For me, I want to discuss anything and everything, analyze the evidence and come to our decisions about church topics together. I want to have open and rational discussions, but because the church is so important to her, anything negative about the church is an attack on her, and becomes emotional. So not wanting the discussion to become emotional, I clam up.

In addition, the only time I saw her without faith (which lasted less than two days) she went into a seriously disturbing emotional funk, and I'm not convinced that I want to ever risk going there again. This, combined with her explicit desire not to research anti-mormon topics, adds to me not being open about my feelings and reasons for them.

So we explained all of that. I can see how I can be more respectful toward her ideas, illogical and unethical as they may be in my eyes, but I would have to either not give my reverse opinion, or lie. Maybe I'll have to learn to bite my tongue and say "I disagree, but I love you." It still doesn't solve the problem of me not being able to express myself fully, which I can't see being done without a full analysis of all historical evidence, and I have a hard time seeing LDS Family Services encouraging that.

Anyway, one fun tidbit from the session. The moderator said something like "she doesn't want to be judged by your opinions, just like you probably don't want to be judge from the church's perspective." I thought about it for a few moments and said "no, I don't think I care about that." I seriously don't care if mormons tell me I'm going to hell. I know the doctrine, I was on that side once. I just want to have an open and honest discussion, and not let reason get clouded by emotion. I told the moderator that I've thus far found it impossible to have such conversations with mormons, and thus I'm not confident I'll be able to have such with my wife.

We'll see if my money goes down the toilet or not. If it doesn't work I'll probably find a non-mo counselor. At least the fact that I no longer pay tithing makes these trips possible (my wife would probably say "if you did pay tithing, they wouldn't be necessary").

You might take a look at John Gottman's Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, especially Chapter 5, "You Don't Care About My Dreams." He gives some good ideas how to talk about entrenched issues. From his perspective it isn't that you disagree that is the problem, it is that you and your wife can't talk about them without it creating a lot of ill-feeling, which is what I hear you saying. You can get the book on Amazon or Barnes & Noble in paperback or as a download.

Well the ill-feeling is mostly on her part. My feeling ill has everything to do with making her feel ill, and nothing to do with what she actually says. I want to hear it, just like I want her to hear me.

But the actual disagreement is also an innate problem, since in her eyes my ideas, and the ideas alone, will directly result in the eternal separation of our family. And in my eyes, her ideas are causing the temporary division in our family, since they lead her to not wanting to investigate my issues openly or honestly. I don't care if she continues to go to church and raise the kids in it afterwards, just so long as she's open and honest about it all. Ironically, that type of attitude is what leads people out of the church anyway.

She said that she's nervous because she's only managed to find one success story for our situation, defined by them being still married, and the wife being still active in the church. Considering the last two sentences of my last paragraph, I'm really not surprised.

Sounds better than my first session last week, at least your counselor didn't use the term "faulty thinking" when talking about what led you away from the church, tell your wife that she should be afraid of what other secrets I might be keeping from her (like feelings for another woman), or tell her that I should be going to church even if I don't believe because it's good family time.

We've got our second session next week, we'll see if things change. I hope it works for you. My initial impression is that it won't work for us and we'll have to find a secular place to go.

Your counsellor must be pretty inexperienced to say those things in front of you on your first visit. I could understand saying them to your wife in private, but to do it in front of you is shamelessly stacking the deck. If I were you, when they ask what it is you want (and they sure as hell better), you say that you want your perspective to be taken seriously, and not to have judgment passed on your ideas until they have been discussed thoroughly and openly. That it hurts you deeply when phrases like "faulty thinking" are used without discussion as to why its faulty. You might also ask why sitting on a bench listening to someone else speak (about things you don't agree with), and then going to separate classes, constitutes as good family time.

At the very least, if you feel like you're not being heard-out or respected, you should say so. And if it doesn't get better then you have good justification to terminate the sessons.

She was older, probably in her late 50's or early 60's so I don't know how inexperienced she is. Could be that she's had lots of experience peddling the church side of things. I've had some time to reflect on our visit and keep finding more and more red flags the more I think about it. I thought I was on high alert for these sorts of things last time but it was a new situation for me so I was a little thrown off. Now that I've had some time to think about it, I'll be ready to go if she heads down that path again.

And I've talked to my wife about all of these issues, she know that I'm uncomfortable with a lot of what this woman had to say. The more I've thought about it, the more it seems like she was trying to put doubts in my wife's head about being able to trust me rather than help us fix things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2011 01:58PM by onlyme.

They will be careful at first - BEFORE they proceed to trample you into little pieces. Sounds like you are up for the melee though. Please keep us posted. We are on your side (even though we like entertainment too. lol)

Hi,

My wife is still active, my membership was terminated by the church just over three years ago now, and the unchristian policies and unanswerable questions were what lead me to change my perspective of the church. While my wife, at the time my fiancée, was jointly responsable for my membership being placed on trial - (she wasn't responsable for the ecclesiastical abuse from priesthood leaders that lead to my excommunication) - and while she may have felt partly responsable for how things have ended up - she knows it is down to me and my choices so she doesn't beat herself up about it. At first it was a little difficult and my wife wondered how I couldn't just go along with it and be rebaptised etc etc just for her - because I love her - but she got over that and accepts the situation - even if she would prefer it to be different. We are also very open about our beliefs, well I am actually, she is more resereved about sharing her feelings and beliefs but she always has been - but she does talk and explain things with me. So if you want to tell your wife of another success story then there is me! Unless her success story involves you returning to the church for the happy dream of an ever after when you're both dead. Now is more important than the possability of an 'after this life'. I always tell my wife, and priesthood leaders, when the subject arises that if God is how I imagined him to be (when I was Mormon) that he would not seperate a family who love each other and make both parties miserable, the faithfull and the unfaithfull. That would punish the sinner and the righteous and the children and future generations. Would a father really reject a child for breaking a rule or not doing what he or she was 'asked to do' -even though he somehow isn't able to give instructions himself without using a mortal as an intermediary. Anyway, I wish you and your wife all the best.

how is hashing over historical evidence part of a relationship?

just because I had concerns, for instance, of tumor origin, and environmental system dangers damanging dna- when I had an ideological crisis as my children faced tumors-
does not mean that for me to be able to have full self expression people in relationship to me had to talk about biochemistry, defoliant and herbicide county records from the UC Davis data base coorelated with cancer clusters in farm areas. Just because I had to research it for my self did not mean, even though others in the family disagreed did not want to think about it- AT ALL- they called it a lack of trust- that I wanted to research the origin of human cancer cell starts, enviornmental causes, chemical origins, and organic chemistry- it drove them nuts. They didn't want to talk about it! Figure that out! It fascinated me! Why woudln't they want to talk? But there is evidence! its in the data base! and there is research in professional journals on it! Why wouldn't other members of my family be fascinated by this???? I wanted them to hear me- how could they deny me the right to compile and discuss chemical exposure records correlated with cancer cases? Why didn't they care to discuss the data on different pesticides used frequently in the past in apartment complexes? Why didn't they care about the history of radiation emmissions from the the decomissioned nuclear power plant near the beach we used to walk at together?? Why weren't they as excited as me by this data?? Lets talk pesticide flumes in valley water wells surrounding my elementary school and - what? the family would rather not? what ? you too? dont' care to talk about this clearly fascinating data??? WHAT?

ok how could it be? For me to feel validated and heard, and clearly express myself, I had to force both my daughters a)to stay alive, b) to get through physics and complete enough science classes to talk with me LOL

Then they did- and they STILL weren't interested. **S*S*

can you believe that!

**#$#$# WELL its true. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to you.



theres areas of interest, skills, research how many people liked doing a research report while they were in school? What makes us think they'd enjoy it now? How many people would rather listen to their ipod and zone or play a game than listen to someone do their presentation for a semester grade while they were in school? What makes you think someone ever wanted to grow up and either listen while you present a research presentation, or be in a research project? of their own free will-0 when they didn't even like it ?

unless you're a researcher- then its different. isn't it.