My wife and I have both been out several years now - However, she stayed for about two years longer than I did. Recently while discussing our transitions with another couple she explained the conversation that really got her thinking (although I had seen it a general process)

One day when discussing Joseph Smith, I asked to put aside any pre-context other than the facts of the conversation. I told her that I felt deeply hurt that I firmly believed that if I cheated on her and swore to her that I was commanded by an angel with a flaming sword to do it she would not believe me. I reminded her I have always been faithful and NEVER lied to her (about anything of consequence anyway)...And yet I believed she would find it preposterous and even knowing me in the flesh, and relying on each other for years she would realize it could not be true. I then explained that it hurts me deeply that she gives this man she never knew, who lived nearly 200 years ago the benefit of the doubt.

Apparently it stuck with her although we never talked about it until she was relaying the story recently. And she asked herself if she would believe me. SHE WOULDN'T!...It started her questioning Joseph Smith a little further...and then as you know the floodgates open and the Rabbit hole consumes...

Woohoo!

And there you have it:

" I then explained that it hurts me deeply that she gives this man she never knew, who lived nearly 200 years ago the benefit of the doubt."

The crux of conditional love. It is required that a spouse comes second to a different, dead human, and that, that is not an unfettered union.

I've thought often about what things must have been like with Emma...
When she found Joe screwing Fanny Alger in the barn (which as far as we know is the first of his affairs, but may only be the first he was caught doing). The accounts we have say Joe apologized to Emma, promised to never do it again, and that she partially (but not fully) forgave him. Nothing whatsoever in the earliest accounts about angels with swords, revelations from god, etc. Just the same situation with millions of other men who "strayed," and got caught.

What must Emma have thought, shortly after, when suddenly Joe's doing it again, only this time claiming that god/angels commanded him to do it? That this was all "god's law?"

Emma *had* to be in on the BoM scam. There's no way she didn't know that there were no plates, no "translation," etc. She had to have been complicit in the fraud, going along because she thought it would make her and her husband wealthy.

And so, knowing that, she's now confronted with a husband who she caught cheating once (with no "god commanded me" excuse), and who now brings out all the god-stuff to justify sex with as many women as he could get.

Of course Emma didn't believe him about the angel with a sword. She knew better. Stuck in frontier towns, though, and fully committed to the fraud, she grudgingly went along. At first she was quite vocal about her opposition (at least to 'close' friends). Gradually she was beaten down, accepted this as the price of participating in the fraud, having church members provide them a nice house and money to live on, and having a high "status" in the group. She was trapped, and she knew it. Until Joe was shot, at which point she separated from the group that adored her con-man dead husband.

My wife wouldn't buy any of that crap -- because she hadn't joined in any fraud to start it all off, and wasn't benefiting from the fruits of that original sin.

Yours wouldn't buy it either. For the same reasons.

Yet swallow it hook, line, and sinker -- mostly without thinking about it.

You did *really good* to get your wife to see that. REALLY GOOD. And to make such a distinction between honest, honorable, faithful YOU, and sleazy, con-man, sex-crazed Joe.

Well done.

Many people are unaware that according to Joseph's own mother, the night Joseph "received the plates" Emma went with him.

Says to me she was having a hard time accepting Joseph's dalliances under the guise of "restored polygamy" and polyandry.

See D&C 132-54
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

It wouldn't work with my wife because she thinks JS is a prophet and he really spoke with god. I'm just her husband who likes women and would lie about it if I was ever unfaithful.

That was a very insightful point to make. It's like you got an upgrade on inspiration once you fired the Mormon Holy Ghost. I can't even imagine how happy you must have been when your wife finally turned the corner. Good for you both.

That really is one of the big hurdles. I like the way you put the question to her.

The indoctrinated mind has a hard time going there. If this is not true, then Joseph Smith had to have been a total con artist. Sure, he put the art in "con artist," but nevertheless, con artist he was.

After years of "Praise to the Man" and "Oh How Lovely Was the Morning," etc., it's a hard hard leap to make.

Well played, sir.

For me, discovering the fraud of marriage was worse than discovering the fraud of religion.

You have problems with the church and think you can confide in your wife because you made this holy bond of marriage and supposedly your first loyalty is to your spouse.

Then you find out she doesn't want to hear your issues, and you discover she was talking about you in secret with bishop, mom and friends. And her bishop and mom are suggesting divorce.

So much for the two of you against the world.

Pretty much I was being used as a paycheck, and she was aligned first with her mom and the church.

We are still married, but no more fantasy. Just roommates using each other.

it sucks when you discover that you are the third .....or fifth or sixth or seventh wheel in your own marriage .....especially when you are the LAST one to know.

Its surprising how much credence many women will give any man they aren't married to...must be the snoring and dirty socks I spose...it's hardly rare for women to unburden themselves about marital problems to a bishop...or hold a stake prez or ga in high esteem because they lack familiarity...whoever said familiarity breeds contempt was fairly bright...grass being greener is real...and not just for the fair gender...I applaud your victory sir...well done...sometimes a common sense approach might work...but not always...sometimes nothing works