I took up LDS on its offer of a free DVD "Finding Faith in Christ" or some such. I watched it, took notes, and am prepared to discuss it with a pair of eager young gentlemen this coming Tuesday. The video's thesis was on the alleged virtue of 'faith,' so I plan on asking these missionaries about how some folks-- using Scientologists and FLDS (Warren Jeffs' folks) for examples-- have faith in the wrong person/doctrine.
This will be an exercise for me in patience, compassion, and focus. I have resources, but am always looking to do better. Asking y'all for suggestions might help me do better. I don't expect to break these boys' shelves, but my goal is to weigh it down a bit more, give them resources if/when they do come to question their paths.
On the table for our discussion I'm planning to have lemonade, ginger snaps, a copy of an FLDS book, a copy of the CES letter, and maybe texts from other traditions-- Qur'an, Torah, etc.
Thoughts?

Sounds entertaining. If you got the time and inclination, I say for it. Let us be entertained too by reporting back. Out getting some popcorn...

You sound very prepared. If nothing else you will give them something to think about and maybe some doubts will creep in one day. I'd be prepared for the emotional sell. That's one thing you can't argue with -- their "feelings" and that they "know" it's true. Of course, lots of other religious folk feel the same way about their sect, so pointing that out may be helpful. Best of luck!

Maybe we could role-play this a bit?
I'm expecting to hear "Well, the Spirit confirms to me that the LDS is true, that our faith is true." I would counter with "Well, I'm sure followers of Warren Jeffs say something similar."
I'd be tempted, but probably need to resist, to go into "Well, if you have confirmation, in what sense is your faith a "faith"?" That might get too convoluted. Or it might be relevant if they hit the "know" button too often.

Sounds like you are setting yourself up to get testified unto like crazy. They will not have answers or be able to contribute to the conversation for more than 5 minutes. It will get to a point where all they can do is testify. Prepare for that angle.

Typical non-answers I get from Mormons on this topic are as follows:

- JS taught the difference between Mormonism and other faiths is "we have the holy ghost"

- I believe that one religion has to be right from a truth standpoint (lets call that the holy ghost) AND everyone no matter what faith or disposition they have are totally entitled to inspiration and revelation (Lets call that light of Christ or conscience). Obviously Mormons have the HG.

My answer is to ask about the time Smith send his followers to Canada to sell the copyrights to the Book of Mormon based on a revelation from Gawd. When his minions returned empty handed, they asked why the revelation failed.

Smith said he would ask Gawd. He came and stated that "some revelations are of God, some are of man, and some are of the devil."

Well, if a prophet of Gawd couldn't tell which was which, how can you or I?

I've just started trying to read up on this story. The first link was to FAIRMormon, which I understand to be pro-Mo apologetics. Can folks point me to a critique of the FairMo position?

Can we role-play? I *think* I know what you mean by "they'll testify like crazy.." but I can't be sure.

"Well, that's very nice, but please realize that *I* also have a testimony. I, also, have my personal experiences in my walk with God. With you bringing your experiences to the table, and my bringing my experiences similarly to the table, the question remains-- how are we going to discuss some of these questions *rationally*? If we're going to try to discuss some form of objective truth, don't we need to be able to point to, appeal to factual bits of the world beyond our own subjective feelings?"

It does not matter on which point you get them stumped. Their training fall back is to say I know JS was a prophet that restored the gospel. I know th bom is true. This is god's church. That is the essence of what you will hear from them.

I had a run in with an excommunicated JW higher up. I just let the conversation go... my comp just testified in the same way I described above. When we finally got out of there, the comp was very quiet for a while. Lost in his thoughts I suppose. Then he said that was one of his top 10 testimonies. I nearly burst out laughing. I thought he was crazy.

My inclination is to reply:
Why should your level of internal conviction be persuasive to anyone else? If all folks have is "I'm convinced I'm right," then where does reason-based persuasion come in?

I'd be tempted to add, but probably should hold off on saying:
It starts to sound like the purpose of your mission is more to ensure your own commitment to these beliefs than to reason with others.

The trick they use is to get the room quiet. Softly tell you what they believe so that 'the spirit' can work within you. I think the cultural trick is that the one who is the recipient of the testification lets it go, or feels bad and does not want to burst their bubble.

Maybe try pointing out that you recognize that you identify what would be their 'spirit' but that it does not teach or edifying you because you can tell them that santa clause is true with the same reverence, conviction, sincerity, when the same quiet hush is throught the room. Maybe mimic the same technique and you will have to identify it pretty quick and testify of something too.... serious or not. It might depend on how your report is going.

"Elders,.... I have had experiences in my life...where I have come to know and feel the loving and guiding influence of the Easter Bunny in my life. Once when I thought no one loved me when I was 8, I found an egg which was filled with the most pure wholesome and delisccious caramel the world has ever known. I knew from that experience and many others that the Easter Buny knows me and my situation in life. I say that in the Rabbit's Holy Name...even Peter. Amen". Or some such..... Cadence and sincerity are the tools.

Tempting, but I think I should avoid mocking. Otherwise, I might tell them about how I was touched by the noodly appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Ramen.

May you be touched by his noodly appendage. R'amen

The kids brought along a PhD student. While the adults talked, they largely just sat there and maybe listened. It was interesting to hear the (Mormon) PhD student nearly complain as he acknowledged that LDS was run by amateurs with no hermeneutic tradition to speak of. I made sure the missionaries had my contact information, just in case either wished to contact me on his own. As they left, I said to the (junior?) companion who'd said practically nothing "And you, chatterbox, you need to let others get in a word edgewise."
Topics at least touched upon were LDS notion of the nature of deity, LDS official silence on creationism, and a few other bits. I called it off after about an hour-- I'd other things to take care of. When they prayed at the end, I declined to be a participant.
The PhD student tried to 'spin' as well as he could manage the disconnect between what he knew as a scholar and what impression LDS sort-of-accidentally (mis)taught. He think there's still room for LDS to evolve into something more mature.

At some point I may just need to point out "I'm right because God says so" is not the basis for a rational discussion. It is, frankly, the basis for a lot of violence over the centuries.

And I can't help thinking of those high school sports things where the cheerleaders on each side do the chant "We've got spirit, yes we do, we've got spirit, howabout you?" I'd ask if their 'confirmation of the spirit' has any more basis to it than just being a kind of cheer-leading.

When they leave you, and you're out of earshot, they'll bewail the waste that such a nice person could be so deluded. They'll write home about you and deride you and build themselves up, and get praise from their moms, and there will be exclamations on how lucky they all are not to be you.

Denial is a whole lot more than just a river...

I certainly can't control how they're going to gossip afterwards, but... I keep trying to think about how I can plant seeds, and want to prioritize. "If you went to FLDS territory, and you failed to convince anyone there, I wonder what they'd say about you behind your back after you left?" "Oh, those boys are so deluded, aren't we FLDS folks lucky to be led by the truth, unlike them?" That might be a lower-priority item for me.
I keep thinking the FLDS example (a group they would agree with me were "wrong") is rich with possibilities to function as a mirror. I want to give them infectious thoughts that will stick with them later.

Waste. Of. Time.

You may be right, pettigrew. Of course, the same could be said of playing solitaire, which I occasionally enjoy.
Still, for those who can answer, I'd love to hear:
When you were a missionary, what do you think would have been helpful for you to hear?

Cold. Hard. Facts.

None of this playing around with feelings would have made an iota of difference to my testimony.

Woh take that back right now. Playing solitaire is not a waste of time.

Please tell me more. Which Cold, Hard, Facts would have done the most good?
I'm also surprised to hear that my ideas sounded like "playing around with feelings" to anyone. But I'll take under advisement that my impulse for wanting to explore logical implications might be more convoluted than helpful. I keep wanting to push at "What is the *method* by which one comes to knowledge claims?" "See the logical fallacies and manipulative methods of these cults-- how do you guard against that?" Maybe I'm aiming too high?

There is no right answer about "facts". It is different for everybody what fact stuck in the back of their mind and ate slowly away at their testimony.

Mine was the Global Flood. It simply couldn't have happened, but the Mormon church has said that it absolutely had to have happened just as the scriptures state.

for some it might be polygamy, conflicting 1st vision accounts, DNA problems, etc, etc....

Even this was posted here a few days ago, it still makes me laugh. "Are you telling me 2 penguins walked all the way from Antarctica to the Middle East to get on the ark?"

No... 2 penguins walked all the way from Antarctica to Missouri. Joe Smith said so.

My go-to reply for Noah's-flood literalism is to ask about koalas. So... your claim that this was an historic event implies that koalas (along with all the other land animals in Australia) left a boat in eastern Turkey about 4000 years ago (five thousand, six?), crawled and perhaps swam to Australia, to *only* Australia, leaving no relatives, no cousins, no fossils behind anywhere in east or south Asia on the way?

Anyone else have a shelf-breaking fact which you think I should present to the missionaries? What would have been helpful for you to have heard while on mission?

In the US alone there are nearly 50 different species of termites.

Not a line of argument I would get into, however, because there are a number of faiths that have "floods" in their stories. Many of these recognize the floods were not truly global, and this part of the Bible comes from a tradition of storytelling that is not meant to be literal.

Joseph Smith did claim the Book of Abraham was a literal translation but no Egyptian scholar will agree with his "translation" of the facsimiles provided. Modern LDS Inc is saying, oK, maybe it was "inspired", but that is not what Joe Smith claimed, so it speaks to his credibility (or lack thereof) and the modern LDS, Inc's deceptions and cover-ups.

For me it was the temple. Back in 1965 Mormonism was an okay deal, but when I walked out of the temple, I felt certain that it was merely a human organization, with no possibllr connection to a supreme being.

In my mind, events since then have continually confirmed this, especially the 1990 changes wrought via a survey.

The temple is a big tell that its man-made in my opinion. Like someone from the 1800s came up with it.

Go for it.

The goal is not to get the mishies to convert or admit anything. The goal is to get them to think!

If no one helps them think and show them new info with valid perspectives then who will?

If 50% of mishies that come home eventually leave how many did so due to things learned while on a mission imparted by someone like touchstone who used his life experience and time to help them think differently.

Telling touchstone that this is a waste of time is to me the same as someone who is self defeating. Not seeing value in actions that may or may not help is beside the point of the goal to attempt to educate.

In other words if you don't buy a lottery ticket you sure as hell aren't going to win.

Every ex-mormon a missionary, I always say.

I should probably mention I'm a nevermo. Consequently, I'm not in a good position to compare notes with them about Temple experiences, or being intrusively grilled by the bishop on masturbation. I just want to encourage critical thought and counter the blatant lies.
I think my first question to them will be "How much time do we have?" If less than an hour, I'll express openness to meeting again. I'll also try to make sure each of them has his own copy of my phone number.
If they offer me literature to read after they've left, I'll counter-offer: "I could read this and we discuss it next time-- could I give you something to read which we could also discuss next time?"
Plausible?

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Mormon missionaries have no theological training. The vast majority can't tell you the line of prophets from Joseph to monson.

I'd wager my paycheck they can't name 1/2 the original 12 apostles.

They are unaware of church history or doctrinal changes.

Expecting a rational conversation with an 18 year old let alone a deep theological discussion is asking too much.

I'd wager they have never even seen the film.

I ordered the dvd because it was on the back of a missionary calling card with their phone number. They had offered to hand-deliver the dvd. If they're not prepared with their own marketing materials, that would be amusing and telling. I guess my opening questions should include whether they've seen the film.

I'm hearing that I probably need to lower my aim. If I could meet them more than once that might help.

Its true i could never get them to answer any deep question about anything. They didnt even know what tithing was used for.

These poor kids are always hungry.

IF you don't cook..........just go to a deli & order quality meats & cheeses....& quality bread.

Provide a big bowl of ice cream with cookies too.

These kids need more than spiritual help.

Tutu
KJ/AnonyMs

Ha! Plus they can't talk back at you while they're eating!

They are always hungry eating at everybody's house.

We all have a problem with Mormons trying to convert people, but we're supposed to convert them?

But of course, now we have "the truth", right?

I once thought I knew it all, now not so sure. My view of the world keeps changing. And we all still believe in some kind of fantasy and don't want to hear that it is BS.

While on a mission, it is hard to deal with reality, as so much pressure to finish it. They'll have plenty of opportunity to learn about it when they get home - there is the internet.

Having said this, if they stop by, I have shared some of my confusion about things, without completely shooting them down. Then I don't see them for years.

Simple.

They will begin to tell you about the "restored" gospel and church.

Is it?

Does the "Church" look anything like what it was in the Bible??

Does the temple at all resemble what it was in the Bible??

Is the priesthood (in which Apostles were ABOVE prophets) anything like it was in the bible?

No... nothing was "restored"

They will claim many "plain & precious" truths were removed from the Bible.

Ask them to show you in the Bible where these truths were restored... you know, baptisms for the dead, sealings, eternal families and such... They cant, because they were not.

Bottom line... the church restored NOTHING in it's original form from the new testament. Nothing.

Their claim to be a "restoration" is completely false.

Yeah, I agree now, but in the mission field, we had answers. There was even a biblical scripture that we used to justify baptism for the dead and proxy temple work.

It was all bullshit and lace curtains, but we glibly supplied our answers.

And the sheep take great comfort in the ability of the appropriate people having answers to the problems we talk about, and so they brush us aside when we try to point out the errors.

I always ask, who said JS was a prophet? Keep repeating who said? It gets back to one day long ago a guy said he was a prophet.
Then give them that look (really?)

Sooooo how did it go?

Y'all might be disappointed.
As I said above:

The kids brought along a PhD student. While the adults talked, they largely just sat there and maybe listened. It was interesting to hear the (Mormon) PhD student nearly complain as he acknowledged that LDS was run by amateurs with no hermeneutic tradition to speak of. I made sure the missionaries had my contact information, just in case either wished to contact me on his own. As they left, I said to the (junior?) companion who'd said practically nothing "And you, chatterbox, you need to let others get in a word edgewise."
Topics at least touched upon were LDS notion of the nature of deity, LDS official silence on creationism, and a few other bits. I called it off after about an hour-- I'd other things to take care of. When they prayed at the end, I declined to be a participant.
The PhD student tried to 'spin' as well as he could manage the disconnect between what he knew as a scholar and what impression LDS sort-of-accidentally (mis)taught. He think there's still room for LDS to evolve into something more mature.

Huh! Any hint on what the PhD student thinks ghawd wants to be when he grows up?

Probably not a man in the kolob system.

Immature minds of all ages like to keep things simple. Black and white thinking is the norm. They KNOW that they are being led by the Holy Spirit. They also KNOW that you are being led by the evil spirit of Stan. How do they KNOW? 'Cause Mummy and Daddy told them. Nanner, nanner.... You lose.

A lot of them really do act that way sadly.