Then they're Guilt of Lying

I thought that was from George Orwell.

Did they say that in General Conference today? I thought you were supposed to ignore the truth if it was hurtful. But you know the LDS church, doctrine always changes.

And If they are liars, they are not God's church


John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

and the most funny thing of John 8:44 is that if you change "your father the devil" for "your prophet Brigham Young", it still makes sense LOL.


You are of your prophet Brigham Young, and your will is to do your prophet’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the prophet of lies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2017 12:49AM by luckylucas.

References? No need to skimp on standards when calling them on their shit.

If you're asking me for a reference-citation, that will be tomorrow, but I have it saved...

Granted, I am going just by memory but the last time I heard anything in GC was in April 2005, Saturday morning session. The Hinkster made two points--the 1st presidency was more united than ever in the history of the church and that one could not accept the BOM as just a "good book." It was either what it claimed to be or the whole church was a lie. There was no middle position.

There may be more but that was the last thing I listened to from GC before I turned the car radio off.

D&C 50:17-18
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

D&C 93:24-26
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The spirit of truth is of God…

D&C 63:17
17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

D&C 129:7
7 ...it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive;...

2 Nephi 9:34
34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

2 Nephi 28:8-11
And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little ...; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. ...
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully...

Marvin J. Ashton made the following comments in his sermon "This Is No Harm" (from Ensign magazine 2000):

"A lie is any communication given to another with the intent to deceive." A lie can be effectively communicated without words ever being spoken. Sometimes a nod of the head or silence can deceive....

It is a tragedy to be the victim of lies. Being trapped in the snares of dishonesty and misrepresentation does not happen instantaneously. One little lie or dishonest act leads to another until the perpetrator is caught in the web of deceit. ...

A wise person will not allow himself to be victimized by the unscrupulous because of false pride. Oftentimes people are swindled because false pride prevents them from asking questions and seeking additional information. For fear of embarrassment or being thought ignorant, a prospect ofttimes nods his head in the affirmative when he really doesn't understand the glib salesman's line of chatter. "What does that mean?" "What are the risks?" "What are the pitfalls?" "What is the history of the company?" "What references do you have?" are questions worthy of pursuit. ....If prudent decisions cannot be reached on the basis of one's own expertise, advice should be sought from knowledgeable and trusted counselors. Offers that cannot wait or stand review are not worthy.

[My comment: Although Ashton is referring here to unscrupulous salesmen and promoters of business schemes, the advice would also be excellent for those who are investigating Mormonism, and listening to the deceptive pitch and pressure of the Mormon missionaries.]

... People of integrity will neither foster, nourish, embrace, nor share the lie.

In the book, The Angel and the Beehive (1994), Armand Mauss discusses the problems that the LDS church faces with its intellectually inquisitive members. As the church attempts to put forth a media-friendly image, it tries to hide its rather unique past. Unfortunately, many young people grow up in the LDS faith and learn only the homogenized version of Mormon history. Those who have intellectual curiousity will inevitably run across discrepancies and many of those will lose faith in a religion that claims to be the "one true church" and yet lies about its own history. He laments that the LDS Church will lose its best and brightest children because of its pursuit of popularity over integrity.

Mormon writer Robert J. Matthews says, in the October 1994 Ensign article entitled "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness," that the ninth commandment is a

"strong declaration against ... gross understatements, fabrication, or the willful giving of any explanation not supported by the facts.... Even sharing the truth can have the effect of lying when we tell only half-truths that do not give the full picture. We can also be guilty of bearing false witness and lying if we say nothing, particularly if we allow another to reach a wrong conclusion while we hold back information that would have led to a more accurate perception. In this case it is as though an actual lie were uttered.... Lying and misrepresentation in all of their forms are wrong, no matter how they may be rationalized, and those who silently let these evils pass unchallenged are also doing wrong".

From LDS Gospel Principles, Chapter 31: Honesty.

Complete honesty is necessary for our salvation. President Brigham Young said, “If we accept salvation on the terms it is offered to us, we have got to be honest in every thought, in our reflections, in our meditations, in our private circles, in our deals, in our declarations, and in every act of our lives” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 293).


Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng

That sounds very Orwellian considering the source.

I would use the quotes from church leaders as words against them in cases where they need to be quoted. But in the battle against the church, you can't let them frame the arguements, even by quoting the bible when you are right. You can trap them in conflicts between scripture and their own actions. But no one will care. Critical thinking skills are not even a part of their equasion when they frame the arguement. When they look like nice guys on TV sunday mornings twice per year, no one is using their critical thinking skills. They just want to feel good.

However if you can find them violating statutes, court orders, personal boundries, and the like, those are things that can and will bring down the church. The church does these things every day. Everyone lets them get away with it for the most part.

As for all of the lieing. It happens so often and blatently, that no one even cares about that anymore.

The world at large doesn't care if the church does or doesn't live its own rules when the infractions do not involve them personally. But they will not tolerate (even for a religion) that the church violate public order, or individual rights. So our arguements need to be framed in ways that put your government-recognized rights (avoid "god given" because you don't want theological debates). The church worked its way in to your life one step at a time. The church will collapse in the same method.

Lies are the church's primary product. Lies alone will not get them in trouble. Lies and other malicious actions that harm or deminish your legal rights are actionable against the church, if or when you can prove harm done. That's all we have to work with for the most part. People need to stand up for their own rights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2017 12:06PM by azsteve.