What do you think? Is it the religion or is it the individuals in it? Many people also do not distinguish between various interpretations of Islam and individual believers.

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/03/its-time-to-start-calling-evangelicals-what-they-are-the-american-taliban/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/influential-conservative-group-trump-devos-should-dismantle-education-department-and-bring-god-into-classrooms/2017/02/15/196bf872-f2df-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html


"Evangelical christians in the United States condemn muslim extremism as a threat to the country and their way of life, while clearly endorsing their own form of extreme religious authoritarianism. This form of religion establishes a tribally divisive “us” versus “them” mentality, which places “our” rights and prerogatives above the needs of any other group. And it’s used repeatedly as the basis for denying other people’s rights — particularly their freedom to choose and even their right to exist. It’s worth pointing out that in the south religion buttressed this tribal mentality to force a separation between whites and blacks, who were/are seen as inferior. This tribalism is deeply embedded in white suburban christian thinking, and accepted without question. I shouldn’t have to point out that, in the end, this is not Christian at all."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2017 11:20AM by anybody.

Honestly, you are the one who sounds unhinged by this post.

To you, perhaps, but not to normal people...

@Soft Machine, did you even read the Church and State article? It says that extremists say things like "I'll pray for you". The horror. lol

If you cant tell the difference between living in Alabama and Afghanistan then you really are out of touch. I mean really out of touch.

You are calling Evangelicals terrorists. When was the last time an Evangelical killed someone in America for disagreeing with their religion? Seriously.

"Anybody" posts a lot of dumb things like this.

isthechurchtrue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When was
> the last time an Evangelical killed someone in
> America for disagreeing with their religion?
> Seriously.

There have been evangelicals who have killed people simply for either performing abortions or working on their behalf. There are also evangelicals, including pastors. who have signed their names on statements condoning and defending those who kill such people.

Just saying.

@Agnes Broomhead, that was back in the 90s. That just proves my point that there isnt any contemporary Evangelical movement that even slightly resembles the Taliban... Not even roughly.

Really?

It's only been eight years since Dr. Tiller's assassination, committed in a Lutheran church by a fundamentalist Christian fanatic. And one of the signers of the "Defensive Action" statement has for years, and continues to this day, use his church as a platform for expressing extremist political views, not to mention extreme hatred towards gays and lesbians. A fellow fundamentalist pastor friend of his (not a signer of that statement) was known for harassing and targeting people who like to visit a nude beach, claiming nudity is sinful.

Not all evangelicals are fundamentalists.

@Agnes Broomhead, Dr Tiller was a member of an Evangelical Lutheran Church so I dont see how that makes Evangelicals guilty of anything. The victim was an Evangelical not the shooter. What was the shooters denomination? Just saying he was a fanatic doesnt even make him an Evangelical. You guys act like there is no difference between a Catholic, Baptist, or Evangelical. You throw around terms without care.

Secondly, you go back 8 years and talk about the act of a single person. I wanted contemporary evidence to show that Evangelicals were acting like the Taliban. If you are going to call them the Taliban then you should have an enormous amount of evidence right? What evangelical church condoned the actions of Dr Tiller's killer? Seriously, since you want to make a connection. Then make a connection... What Evangelical Church was responsible for Dr. Tillers death?

You take actions from long ago and singular incidents mostly not even committed by Evangelicals to say that Evangelicals are like the Taliban. That is messed up.

If you want to be technical and insist on a distinction between "evangelical" and "fundamentalist", go right ahead.

You should know there are three main branches of Lutheranism. Their official names are:
1. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
2. Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
3. Wisconson Evangelical Lutheran Synod

You should also know that #1 is considered a liberal mainline denomination, it ordains women pastors (the other two don't) and has advocated liberal political issues in at least some of its churches, including one I used to attend. The other two are clearly against abortion rights; no way would a church affiliate allow someone like Dr. Tiller to be a member. His church was ELCA.

Besides, the other two have clear statements against LDS Mormonism, considering it to be not Christian. The church in Indianapolis of which Pastor Duckworth ministers (he defended the new temple that opened there and criticized protesters) is ELCA. Take that for what it's worth.

It means any church can call itself "evangelical", just like TSCC calls itself Christian.

I have met some of these radical fundamentalist anti-abortion activists and believe me, some of these people are so off the loop I'd be careful. I have met Randall Terry in person and he is a friendly and polite guy, although a little overdramatic. But some of these fundamentalists really are not much different than those who committed the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and that any kind of religious movement, when it gets radical, has the potential to morph into a dangerous movement of unrepentant killers. Just like Paul Hill, the one-time Presbyterian minister. It can be anyone.

@Agnes Broomhead, so this is exactly the problem. You are mixing so many words as if they mean the same thing. It sounds like you are really concerned with anti-abortion activist not Evangelicals. It can be hard to define what isnt and what is an Evangelical but when your issue is with anti-abortion activists that has nothing to do with Evangelicals.

Also comparing anti-abortion activists to the Taliban is just fear mongering. Sure they killed about 11 people in the past 30 years but that is nothing like the Taliban.

I am not defending the murders. Its just that you would be more likely to die just about any other way than by a Christian extremist. You are literally more like to be eaten by a shark than killed by a Christian "extremist".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 11:19PM by isthechurchtrue.

My point is that every religious movement can and does have some dangerous extremists, and you are implying that fundamentalist Christianity that uses the "evangelical" label has no dangerous elements.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON that has demonstrated and/or protested against abortion rights is an avowed fundamentalist, "Bible-believing" Christian, at least some of whom use the Evangelical label. Though I've heard of a few atheists opposed to abortion, they always stay at home. Every single person convicted, accused of, or acts as an apologist for abortion clinic violence is someone who believes in Jesus Christ and a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Every. Single. One.

That does not mean every Bible-believing Christian supports clinic violence or extremism against gays; I've heard of Assemblies of God pastors who frown on congregants who want to join in even simple demonstrations. But while most abhor extremist violence, there are always at least some who will.

I want to add to this that by whatever term you want to call these people: fundamentalist, Christian dominionist, they do not eschew violence. What keeps them from becoming the Taliban is not their own intrinsic morality, non-violence, tolerance, respect for diversity, anti-authoritarianism. What keeps them from acting out their violent fantasies of purging evil is a well-functioning, secular, American government that's done a good job monopolizing violence into the state. Take those "Christians" and put them in Afghanistan--a country, which before the Taliban takeover, was a country wracked by civil war and fighting among militias--where the state is not strong enough to monopolize violence, and I've got no doubt these Christians would act just like the Taliban. What's stopping them is not their own, intrinsic, moral compass, it's simply that they can't amass enough power.

Evangelicals already have this label— they are fanatics.

A troll calling someone "unhinged" ?
That's pretty funny.

@Dave the atheist, I am not trolling. In fact, I am just pointing out the obvious. The irony of an atheist calling Evangelicals terrorists when just 2 weeks ago an atheist walked into a church and yelled "Everyone die." then shot around 50 people. That is real terrorism.

++++this^^^^

Since he wasn't motivated by religious ideology, but rather hoping to kill his inlaws and those who associate with his wife's family, I don't think this qualifies as an example of a religious dispute.

Not according to those who knew him.

"The man who shot and killed 26 people in a Texas church on Sunday is reported to be a creepy, crazy, and weird outcast who preached atheism online.

Former classmates of the Texas church shooter, Devin Patrick Kelley, said he was an atheist and outcast who thought Christians were stupid, the Daily Mail reported.

“He was always talking about how people who believe in God we’re stupid and trying to preach his atheism,” former New Braunfels High School classmate Nina Rose Nava posted on Facebook. She said she was in “complete shock” after learning Kelley was the killer. “I legit just deleted him off my fb cause I couldn’t stand his post.”

Facebook user Christopher Leo Longoria responded, saying, “I removed him off FB for those same reasons! He was being super nagtive (sic) all the timd (sic),” the news outlet reported."

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/11/05/report-texas-church-shooter-atheist-thought-christians-stupid/

I'm not convinced that Brietbart is a legitimate and unbiased source of news or information.

The NY Times reports basically the same as Breitbart. He was a known atheist who hated on Christians.

"Friends said on Facebook that in recent years, Mr. Kelley had become vocally anti-Christian, to the point where many stopped communicating with him. His Facebook page, which has been deleted, listed that he liked a number of atheist groups.

“He was always talking about how people who believe in God were stupid and trying to preach his atheism,” one of his Facebook friends, Nina Rosa Nava, posted on the site, saying she unfriended him because of it."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/devin-patrick-kelley-texas.html

Change anti-Christian to anti-Mormon and this sounds just like something TBMs would say.

He had a long history of violence against women and animals and an affinity for guns. I think that had as much to do, or more with the situation than his atheism.

"Law enforcement stopped short of saying religious views may have influenced Mr. Kelley, saying Monday that the shooting may have been motivated by a “domestic situation” involving Mr. Kelley’s estranged wife and her family."

"By 2017, he had returned to a house in New Braunfels that records show was owned by his parents. The house was about an hour from the church where the shooting occurred. According to local law enforcement, Mr. Kelley’s second wife at times attended the church with members of her extended family."

And you are a known theist who hates on Atheists.
What's your point, besides deception ?

To put him in a very rigid x environment. So what would have been the direction for any disagreement.
That is not to say he did not have other problems.
But these small TX communities do not offer many variables.

“there are some 14-year-olds, who, the way they look, could pass for 20.” -- pastor Earl Wise, a Moore supporter from Millbrook, Ala.

Add there are some 32 year olds who can pass for 14.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Add there are some 32 year olds who can pass for
> 14.


LOL!!

I think many religions, once they gets the numbers they need, try to impose their way on others. Even the Catholic church has done it in certain countries.

Summer:

Could you explain your comment? I don't see the contemporary CC that way.

That said, full disclosure: I was raised Cat but left because I don't believe in god/jesus, so any argument to belong is pointless as I think that's kind of a bare requirement--which is pretty much my only problem with the Cats.

The Catholic Church certainly tried in France, meddling with anything and everything, including politically.

That's probably why France now has a secular system which excludes religion from the public sphere.

Mexico did the same thing.

It was well known to the missionaries in Mexico in my era that in theory the church did not own our chapels; they didn't have private property rights. (Which puzzled me when the Mexico temple was proposed, because of this lack of exclusionary power. I have no idea how they came to an "understanding," given the extreme probity of Mexican government officials.)

This antipathy towards religion came courtesy of the necessary revolt against the abuses of la iglesia católica.

Brazil -- meddling with divorce laws to the point where many individuals that have separated from their spouses just live with their next partner. It's been a huge problem for Mormon missionaries who can not baptize those couples.

Ireland -- meddling with birth control and abortion laws over the years.

I'm sure there are other examples. But where the Catholic church *can* throw its weight around, it has proven that it will.

That Church and State article is so dishonest. It takes Genesis 1:28 which is about mans dominion over all plants and animals in the world and tries to say it is talking about dominating other people. Try reading the verse in context. Plus there werent any other people besides Adam and Eve according to the story at the time.

@anybody, here is the problem. You go from quoting fringe groups to just making things up. I dont know of a single Evangelical group that interprets Genesis 1:28 that way. Can you name at least 1 that does?

And I'm not making things up. My purpose is to get people to think and question their beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 02:30PM by anybody.

@anybody, the article says "Prominent adherents of these ideologies are otherwise theologically diverse, including Calvinist Christian Reconstructionism, Roman Catholic Integralism, Charismatic/Pentecostal Kingdom Now theology, New Apostolic Reformation and others."

Notice how it doesnt list Evangelicals as adherents to "Dominion Theology."

The truth is in the details. There are many different Christian denominations. It isnt fair to act like they are all one group.

@anybody, I asked for an Evangelical denomination that interprets Genesis 1:28 the way you think they do. I asked you to name just 1. At least 1. Instead you linked to a Wikipedia page that isnt even about Evangelicals.

Anyone got some actual Global crime stats on how many murders and other serious crimes that the Taliban have been directly or indirectly involved in this generation? Same goes for the Evangelicals? And while we are at it, the American drivers on the American roads/highways :(

Good point, because we are comparing apples and oranges.
In Islamic theocracies, you have to be religious with no choice.
Evangelicals have no such imposition— they cannot use the state religion to justify their actions.
They WANT to see that structure for their religion and aspire to living in a theocracy.To many degrees, they live that way.
Itdissimulates some very nasty people.
In the US and other countries, they do not have the freedom to act out on religious behest. They are prevent by the Constituion.
Which they continually try to override.
Mindwise they ALL have the same intents of being supreme religions of ALL men.
But they can only be judged on actions.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 11:56AM by itzbeen20.

Wow, talk about painting everyone with the same broad brush!!!!!

What? American Evangelicals????? Not SOME people labeled American Evangelicals?

ALL mormons are....

ALL exmormons are...

ALL Catholics are....

ALL Jews are....

ALL American Evangelicals are......

COME ON!!!! I hear that---as if "Evangelical" were a bad word. Implies being hateful, judgmental, blah blah blah.

Well, some people are that way. Some of almost any group probably are that way.

And a whole lot of (us) who are American Evangelicals, like a whole bunch of whoever else are people who like people, care about them, care for their families and their neighbors, bless their communities with their skills, talents, and money, bless the greater community of mankind with their skills, talents and money----

And yes, some who carry that label also blow things up and shoot people. Labels used this way do not mean anything at all.

I am impressed, itzbeen20, that you are familiar with ALL evangelicals.

Yeah, exactly!

and brings salvation to all, leaves what?
These are the people always down on gays and everyone else who does not believe as them.
Have known a few. Might remind that evangelicals are militant in their ways. Not just belief.
I was very clear in saying that you cannot be judged on intent but on action.
Maybe we should stick with the appropriate time proven Inquisitors label for them?

You have known a few. I have known a lot. There are a few like what you are describing, for sure. But the mighty "they"?

They are lots and lots of people many of whom are ordinary, kindly, friendly, caring people who do friendly, kindly, caring things. They are not "down on" anybody.

That there are some who are judgmental, even violent is also true.

Before the "Taliban" were a terrorist group they were students. That's what the word means -- "religious students." The only comparison you seem to be interested in is terrorism -- not what caused it or what lead up to it.

Many people in corrupt, autocratic Middle East countries began to see religious rule as the only solution to society's ills. Once theocracy was established, all the bad things would end and life would be good again -- or so they thought.

This is happening in America right now.

That's the point I was trying to get you to see.

Ask yourself: What makes otherwise normal, decent people so fearful they are willing to embrace hate, intolerance, xenophobia, ignorance, fear, and fascism?

Not so long ago the idea that a large percentage of the population would no longer accept objective reality would have been laughable. Today it isn't. Evangelical religion is being used as a vector of hate and intolerance and many evangelicals are starting to acquiesce to the idea of dictatorial, fascist rule.

As former Mormons I thought you would recognise the signs and danger of the desire for theocracy.

America is at a crossroads. Now is the time to decide between reason and darkness.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2017 08:59AM by anybody.

@anybody, ok so where is the violence? Be specific. When was the last time a Christian of any denomination was violent against an atheist for their atheistic beliefs... Try to use proof or else you sound like a child complaining there are monsters under their bed that might get them at any moment.

You say it is on the rise. So it should be today. Or maybe yesterday that a Christian extremist beat up a an Atheist for being an Atheist. Right? How about 2 days ago?

No, I'm not. I am just one of many voices warning of looming danger.

You are focusing just on levels of violence.

As I said, that's not the issue.

It's the environment that enables violence that's the issue.

There are forces at work in America who want theocratic religious rule for a variety of reasons and there is no longer a separation between American evangelical Christianity and far right politics and they are now one and the same.

"It Can't Happen Here" used to be fiction. It may not be in the near future.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fascism-in-america-it-can-happen-here_us_5a0d74c0e4b006a16baf1f61



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2017 11:35AM by anybody.

@anybody, so there isnt any actual violence but you are upset because people disagreed with you.

You compared them to the Taliban because they have a different viewpoint.

@anybody, I say you are fear mongering and you say that is scary...

anybody, I absolutely agree with you. I would count Mormons in there too.

Can someone explain it to me? Why is now a better time for this than a few months ago or in two or three years?

I often read "It's time" and think why now?

Because as time passes what was once reviled as evil slowly becomes acceptable as the "new normal..."

Because you are ready to talk about it? So everyone else must step right up to that time frame?

Actually, not everyone moves on any issue in unison. There are those who take on an issue early and those who have other priorities. Society is broad and can't be steamrolled because someone says they must because it's time.

I would suggest, anecdotally, that we are more socially responsible now than at any time in the past. And the only reason why we are disgusted by what we see is that we are more tuned into the reasons these actions are reprehensible.

I would also suggest, anecdotally, that as our society collectively presses forward that the opposition to our improvement will become more vocal and revolting. And at the same time become smaller.

The fact that when a good thing happens we accept it as normal, and when a bad thing happens our stomachs drop and we feel sick is a sign that our society is a good one. Or at least getting better.

I think the reason why the OP doesn't recognize the steps that have been taken is because the OP is young and inexperienced. I suggest that the OP read about the institutionalized and legal class structure that the United States adopted for most of it's history. I wonder if the OP is aware of the forced prayers and spankings that many of us had to endure in public schools. I wonder if the OP has ever experienced society celebrating the torture and sometimes murder of people who were even just slightly different than the norm.

Just my two cents, but I find nothing wrong with finding fault in violent fundamentalism. What I find questionable is the implication that those small portions of our society somehow are representative of our society.

It really must be exhausting to feel that the sky is always falling.

There is a serious possibility that America could be a de-facto religious autocracy within the next twenty years. It's still small, but not so small as to be next to impossible as it once was.


I worry because large numbers of people are living in a closed information bubble that is divorced from objective reality thus making reasoned discourse impossible.


I worry because my life and my future are in the hands of people who want to create what they call "God's Law" on Earth. They are trying to recreate a mythical past instead of looking forward to the future. They fear change and the future so much they are willing to accept fascist, dictatorial type rule to try and stop it.


I hope it never happens -- but it might.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2017 02:45PM by anybody.