After you stopped believing in Joseph Smith's physical encounter with God, what other supernatural things did you stop accepting?

For example:

Angels? Ghosts? ESP? Holy Ghost? Evil Spirits? NDEs? UFOs? Past lives? Superstitions like Friday the 13th, Lucky Rabbits'feet? Reincarnation?

I'm still finding and clearing supernatural cobwebs from my brain. Angels and ghosts seemed to be much more obvious and easy. I still have to tell myself "bs!" for things like knocking on wood, walking under ladders (a bad idea anyway) and other stuff like that, though it's been many years since I believed it.

The *crap* they tell kids. It oughta be a crime to pollute a child's mind with superstition.

"It oughta be a crime to pollute a child's mind with superstition."

I agree, except I'd say it IS a crime to pollute a child's mind with superstition (and I usually say "nonsense"...). Like quite a few crimes, I can't see any major democracy making it a crime according to the law, though for obvious and entirely correct reasons of freedom etc.

It should be possible to avoid it, as my children were able to, here in France, where public schools are resolutely secular.

I've no idea how easy it is or isn't to avoid religion in the US (or indeed the UK, my country of origin), although in the US, I suspect it depends on where you're located.

Tom in Paris

No, I don't really believe in it, but it's harmless, and it gives a bit of "oomph" to something that you are hoping for, anyway. (If only in your own imagination.)

And I take a homeopathic "medication" called "Oscillococcinum" (just as faithfully as I get a flu shot) during flu season. I first heard about "Oscillo" from a night-school French teacher, years ago, who said that most French people wouldn't dream of going without the stuff in their homes, especially in winter. (Tom in Paris, has this changed??)

I am fully aware that there is no demonstrable proof of the efficacy of homeopathic medicine. However, over the years I have been taking Oscillo at the first inkling of a tell-tale scratchy throat, the symptoms have not progressed beyond that, and I have not had the flu. So, for whatever reason, it works for me.

I saw to it that my kids had their vaccinations as children, and they are all diligent about getting their own kids vaccinated. No nonsense there.

As for knocking on wood, I never demonstrated it to my kids or my grandkids. It's just a silly little thing that I do. My own grandma did it, (she never told me that it had any magical power, so I don't see any harm in it).

I don't avoid black cats, either. Several of them have been kind enough to share their magical little lives with me, over the years.

If a silly little superstition gives you comfort, or even an inner giggle, and doesn't harm anyone else, I still don't see any harm in it.

And BTW, I still step over cracks in the pavement. DH teases me about it.

"If a silly little superstition gives you comfort, or even an inner giggle, and doesn't harm anyone else, I still don't see any harm in it."

My family oral history contains some ghost stories, supernatural events, visitations. I don't believe them literally but they are interesting and comforting as a link in my family history.

When I stopped believing in what the mighty morg was teaching, I kept my hope for an afterlife. But, that too quickly went the way of the buffalo and I don't believe anything now that isn't real.

It took a while to develop a process to determine what is plausible and what is not. My standards do not include things like anecdotes, hearsay, self-proclaimed authority figures, logic flaws, etc.

There is a difference between accepting something as factual and accepting something that might seem plausible based on "supernatural did it" as evidence.

Demon Haunted World by Sagan has a bologna detection kit which helped me develop standards to recognize my biases, emotions, and evaluate claims.

The hard part is being willing to change your mind as we learn more things. The evidence must determine the conclusion and not the other way around. The conclusion must not be based on cherry picking evidence that supports it. The conclusion must account for all evidence and be independently verified.

This is the process that is most likely to align views with the reality outside our heads.

Sagan, in that very book, helped me immensely.

I believe in absolutely NOTHING supernatural.

But I do like the idea of having a "personal mythology" (Thomas Moore - Care of the Soul). You know it's not literally true but it gives your life an interesting point of view.

Yeah...

I know a number of golfers who seem to believe that certain totems have power and that certain actions must be repeated in order to placate the ghawds and have a good result.



...but I still have a tendency to avoid stepping on sidewalk cracks.

Told my counselor that there is no way jesus missed all of the sidewalk cracks, nobody is that perfect haha she just laughed. I tried to miss the cracks as well though as a kid.

I had to switch jerseys and knitted caps at halftime.

But hey - it worked!

One of those teams won!! You can't knock proof like that, right?

Oh my stars, there are bars! Who could have foreseen that?!

auntsukey Wrote:
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> I believe in absolutely NOTHING supernatural.
>

I'm always kind of curious when I see people declare these sorts of things.

When it comes time to tell your kids about the Big Bang and the origin of matter, what purely natural, scientifically-proven process will you cite for them? What examples will you show them that matter springing into existence from nothing is something that happens naturally?

What will you tell your kids about the theory of cause and effect? Will you explain that sometimes things happen without any cause whatsoever, and this is purely natural? And are there examples of this?

I'd probably encourage them to wonder, watch, think, read.

Maybe encourage them to spend their allowance on Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "Astrophysics for People in a Hurry".

Have them watch re-runs and youtube videos of Carl Sagan and "The Blue Planet".

I'd make sure they did their Physics homework.

I'd explain to them that it is the role of scientists to take important questions and seek answers for them.

I'd remind them that the questions are more important than the answers.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
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> What examples will you show them
> that matter springing into existence from nothing
> is something that happens naturally?

Since that's not what happened, why would I tell them that?*

And I certainly wouldn't instill in them the rather silly idea that if we don't know something yet, it must be magic.


*(no scientific theory or hypothesis posits "matter springing into existence from nothing." That's the purview of supernatural creation myths)

When I don't know something, I say, "I don't know."

I realize that some people have a hard time saying those words, as if they're dirty or something. I realize that there are a lot of people can't stand to leave their minds open to possibility and must close them around something, even if it's made up stories involving supernatural magic. That's OK, as long as those people aren't telling me that I have to close my mind around those stories too.

What will you tell your children about the demonstrable inefficacy of using faith to determine truth?

Arm to the square as I sustain this.

I don't believe in supernatural stuff like i did when I was in the cult. That said, I hold out a hope for some sort of existence after this one. It seems kind of dumb as there is nothing to support this belief.

I am reminded of an experience that I had where I was halfway around the world in the military and I had a vivid dream where my first-ever girlfriend visited me. She was so beautiful and vivid. I saw her in 3d and I was reminded of how she really looked - much more vivid than a memory. The details of how her head was shaped and how she felt and smelled. She didn't speak but she seemed happy to see me. I remember thinking in the dream that this is more than just a memory. I decided to fly back to the US to see her and upon arrival I found out that she had died.

I have a desire to remain fixed in my non-magical-ness but this experience happened to me. I dunno. Perhaps there is so much about this life that is unanswerable.

I think your experience was real and she did come to visit you.
Hold on to it.

There most likely is an afterlife. But Mormonism has no power over it.

There is a lot of 'anecdotal' evidence on most of the things you mentioned.

I think the amount of evidence is 'significant' even if it is not the best. Literally, millions of people experience some of these things.

However, to move from a weak belief to a 'strong belief' required direct evidence/experiences for me, that occurred in my life.

However, I had to study various subjects that gave me some hope of gaining direct 'experiences'. I just didn't wait to see if 'experiences' just happened in my life so then I could believe in them.

Whether someone believes or not, if these things are valid they will be valid and you all will eventually find out ----- death should be a real eye-opener for you non-believers in spirits, ghosts, past lives, reincarnation, and the after life. However, shortly after death your memory will be restored so you will 'remember' these things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2017 04:24PM by spiritist.

What other supernatural things did I stop accepting? All of it.

Everything is going down the drain one by one, even a god on the cross. And holidays and birthdays are not acknowledged. Everything is going. It is deprogramming for sure, from decades of brainwashing.

Badassadam1 Wrote:
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> Everything is going down the drain one by one


For me it sort of happened all at once. It wasn't a case of losing my religion, it was realizing I'd never actually believed any of it -- or any other supernatural thing. I think Mormonism keeps members surrounded by believers and testimony bearing to keep them for thinking, "Wait, do I really believe this stuff?"

I can see how it could be put that way. I guess a part of me wanted to hold on to the new testament longer for some reason than everything else that people tried to make me believe in my life. I think you are right though i don't think i ever believed all the mormon stuff it was just the constant cult people believing it around me, didn't know they all did death oaths, that would have been helpful, no youtube back then the badass was flying blind to what people were doing around me in secret. I didn't have a chance back then when i really think about it, wanted to get away but i never could i was too young. I always knew something was wrong with the whole operation though deep down.

You were living a lie. You were the victim of a con game. There was nothing spiritual about it. No need to turn your back on other things that resonate with you on account of this. The world needs a little magic. Just not evil, pretend magic that uses people for its own selfish needs.

I believe in romantic love, big time...

And I know that there are those who don't believe in it, and feel they have good cause.

elderolddog...I'm with you on this one. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I lost 20 lbs. All I could do was think of my Love...and the best part is I was finally able to marry her! It seems crazy looking back, but it did happen to us. There does seem to be some supernatural quality to it.

I believe that 'magical thinking' is not by accident at all.

We are in soul groups and we marry/divorce/remarry, etc. etc. within our soul group. It was all planned before we came here.

So if you marry someone who murders you and your children, was that chosen for you and them from the beginning? By whom? Why?

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
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> So if you marry someone who murders you and your
> children, was that chosen for you and them from
> the beginning? By whom? Why?

________________________________________-

Yes! You 'chose' it! You chose it to gain 'experience' and knowledge not only for you but for all that your life impacts! Everyone impacted gains 'experience' in dealing with that situation.

That sounds more evil than good. I don't share your belief.

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
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> That sounds more evil than good. I don't share
> your belief.

--------------------------------------------

I don't really understand your definition of 'good' or 'evil'.

You are free to not share my belief but you cannot doubt the obvious ------ some people lose their lives early on this earth everyday.

So, the 'evil' scenario definitely 'exists' ---- it happens everyday! Is it the Devil?

I just 'believe' it is all planned and agreed to before we came in this incarnation.

Eternal beings who believe they have lived many lives have a much different perspective than 'humans' who believe they live one life only.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2017 08:18PM by spiritist.

Yes. People lose their lives. I do not believe it's part of a greater plan. I believe people do good things and people do evil things. I do not believe we "sign up" ahead of time to have certain things happen to us. I believe it's random. Accepting that I make no random decisions or ones that come from free will, that I'm just doing someone else's program is not something I can believe in. That seems too small to me.

Uhuh! See The Bell Shaped Curve...

Jesus accounted for TBSC when he said he maketh it to rain on both the just and the unjust.

He seemingly ruled out any special favors for his believers.

Yes, but if you're a Jesus booster, he'll look out for you, amIright? You're saying no?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2017 09:34PM by Devoted Exmo.

You are correct that Christians believe that Jesus either is blessing them or testing them: They see him as being very hands on...

elderolddog Wrote:
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> You are correct that Christians believe that Jesus
> either is blessing them or testing them: They see
> him as being very hands on...


My Mennonite violin and cello teacher, who claims Christianity, believes that all God does is to give wisdom, comfort, and emotional strength to those who want it from him/her. That's the sum of God's contribution or involvement after the initial creation, which, according to my Mennonite string teacher, was all accomplished according to the laws of science and nature and presumably involved evolution and probably a big bang somewhere along the way. I don't make any claim that my string instructor's beliefs represent orthodox Mennonite theology, as I haven't studied enough to make that claim.

scmd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Mennonite violin and cello teacher, who claims
> Christianity, believes that all God does is to
> give wisdom, comfort, and emotional strength to
> those who want it from him/her. That's the sum of
> God's contribution or involvement after the
> initial creation, which, according to my Mennonite
> string teacher, was all accomplished according to
> the laws of science and nature and presumably
> involved evolution and probably a big bang
> somewhere along the way. I don't make any claim
> that my string instructor's beliefs represent
> orthodox Mennonite theology, as I haven't studied
> enough to make that claim.

That sounds similar to the Deist beliefs held by some of my ancestor relatives. That though God created us, he keeps himself at a distance and doesn't get involved with the affairs of mankind to the extent some Christians and believers would want him to.

Doesn't mean we aren't recipients to divine blessings, wisdom, comfort or peace when in need of such. Many of my spiritual blessings and answers to prayers have been in the form your Mennonite teacher describes.

Interesting take.

I also agree there are 'random' things that happen in our lives.

However, when it comes to career/jobs, marriage/divorce, children/relatives, major illnesses/handicaps, and eventual death and manner of death are not 'random'. However, I have read the 'timing' of these events may not be that specific (there are options) depending on where we are on our goals and the chance we have of achieving something worthwhile to keep us alive for.

Where to draw the line between those things and everything else that happens is difficult.

Additionally, when talking 'reincarnation' Jesus and his 'so called teachings/scripture' become questionable at best.

Who or what planned this sh*t? Never mind. I don't have the energy to type in circles for 20 rounds.

LOL! You're a better man than I am Dorothy!

When I stopped believing in the Church, everything else

went by the wayside, thanks to Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted

World and being on RfM . I learned so much

when I first came here. Those were the days when there

would be God versus Athiest arguements. I

learned alot and it was fun.

Maybe some of the other oldtimers remember that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2017 09:22PM by saucie.

I don't want to get into a debate on religious belief but surely those of you who gave up a belief in God/supernatural things didn't just base it on whether or not Joseph Smith lied about his encounter with God.

I agree with you.

It doesn't seem that the current ghawd has any ties with divine texts.

One of the notable touch points along my way out was the "Joshua stops the sun" story.

It's not likely to have happened. A lot of things reported on by religious texts probably never happened.

Either ghawd is a liar or, more kindly, he might not exist, as his lying acolytes describe.

But I do see where believers find sustenance for their beliefs, and personally, I don't have any problems with that. Everyone ought to have the right to coddle certain opinions, such as, "I am a great lover." I will automatically reject 'opinions' to the contrary.

So, its a good thing there are no opinions to the contrary. Whew.

Are you trying to be fresh, missy?

:)

I have now for many decades discarded any belief in anything supernatural.

However I retired a few years ago and moved to Las Vegas. Even though I know better, I can't help believing that I am luckier than the average, and therefore excuse my periodic gambling.

I hope that's been working out for you.

Supernatural things are not provably false. Most of Mormonism is. That’s a big difference.

They may not be provably false but my sense is that there is always a likely common sense explanation which if followed up will be more reasonable than the supernatural explanation

Society beats the supernatural out of us and calls it common sense. They’ll have to whup my ass a little harder.

Millions of 'experiencers' of multiple 'supernatural events' would disagree with you!

Maybe those with only one event may question themselves.

I think it is only 'natural' for non 'experiencers' to believe there must be some other explanation. Just because they have not had any 'experiences'!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2017 10:21AM by spiritist.

I stopped accepting any claims made without any supporting evidence.

Not just "magical" ones. All of 'em.

For very good reasons. You can safely replace "I had a supernatural experience" with "I experienced something I couldn't personally explain, so I assumed without evidence it was supernatural" for every "experience" claimed. And arguments from ignorance are so worthless...

:)

I believe you can too (Steve) - [I do in my dreams (wet or dry, I still fly high)] - according to your comics, and sense of humor and truth and practicality.

I double-stacked tubes on YBU cramp-us once. When I hit the now icy ramp at such an incredible speed is when I realized it wasn't the best idea. But, it was by then, too late. I was already launched, FLYING, tube(s)-free, about to [nearly] die (again).

Someone remind me not to watch SB's flying dangerously links

All i do is Magical Thinking.

It doesn't mean I believe liars, beggars or scammers. It means I don't believe BS.

I'm an inventive creator and creative writer and artist. I come up with things. Solve issues, inside and outside myself. Dig DEEP in nature, history and (certainly) reality.

Outside mormonism, I thrive!
Inside mormonism, it's too dark to read or write... or even breathe.

Cool career description!

Oh, to be so gifted.

Creativity and imagination are sparks of genius; to be able to invent and create something is a ginormous thing to be proud of and feeling of accomplishment.