Someone on this site asked me to report if the J.W. came to my door again.

Well, they did---three of them (all female).

I invited them in.

What I disliked about the leader of the group, was that she kept trying to ask me leading questions, so that she could help me prove that what she said was true, per the bible.

One of the question she asked, which did surprise me, was something to the effect, that 'Did I know their is a mother God in heaven'?

I asked her what Bible she used (as they often have their own selected passage they like to use).

I also said, "Let's cut to the chase--what is the message you want to tell me, or use to convince me of your truth?"

She held up her Bible and showed me, it was a NIV. (In the past, they would show a slim black book of their own, adapted, with carefully selected 'scriptures')

I shared with them the one I use most: "The Companion Bible", King James Version. It is visible larger than theirs, and one of them asked me if it was in large print (I said 'no'.)

This Bible shows English on one side of a page, and where the words came from and mean in Greek, and Hebrew, and I have about 18-20 page markers in this book.) (I handed it to one of the girls to see it, and her eyes kind-of bugged-out over all the markers I had in it.)

The leader asked me what church I belong to, and I declined to say, only that I didn't go to any right now.

Anyway, I enjoyed the visit, and I even received a free (unknown to them) gift--a pen that accidental got left behind on my couch). :)

We used to call the JW bible version "The Green Dragon" when I was on my mission in France...because the French translation they had there used a green cover.

Ah, memories...:)

We called it that in Japan as well. Perhaps all foreign language (non English) versions were bound in green.

Not me. I don't let nutty religious strangers into my home. I'd be concerned about pious little cooties infesting my sofa.

I always love on them because their cult teaches them that God doesn't talk to them and their interpretation from a scripture in Acts forbids them to accept blood transfusions. Their faith does not promote or accept the idea of earning a higher education at all and they deprive their members of life's simplest pleasures and they don't allow them to even celebrate Christmas or Easter. The JW cult robs their members of their identities, futures and happiness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2018 08:47PM by helenm.

About 15 years ago I was planting geraniums on family graves around Memorial Day. A man in a suit and his young son approached me, looking extremely cheerful and asked if I knew "how families could be together forever?" I was somewhat puzzled, as I'd only heard Mormons use this phrase, so I let them launch into their spiel, and they turned out to be JWs.
Surrounded by many unplanted geraniums, I was somewhat of a captive audience and wasn't sure how to get rid of them, until I remembered part of a family we knew had joined the JWs. So I said "well, you must know the Callahans" (not the family's real name, obviously) and started reeling off their names, beginning with the mother. Father and son were gone like they'd been shot from a cannon. Evidently he also was aware that the still-Catholic Mr. Callahan had filed for divorce after arriving home unexpectedly and finding Mrs Callahan in bed with a JW.

I've heard their recent decline in numbers attributed to barring members from completing their education. When you think about it they are one of the only recognized religious groups besides the FLDS and the fundy snake handlers who don't have their own colleges and universities.

The JW kids that I've taught have almost always been very pleasant children. But when they share their ambitions for their education with me my heart hurts for them because I wonder to what degree those ambitions will be squashed.

A few years ago when I was doing hundreds of HS senior portraits a year, one of the kids I photographed was a JW (though I didn't know when he showed up).

I did my usual banter to relax the kid, asking how high school was going, what classes he was taking, was he planning on going to college...

Oops.

His mom was there with him. When I asked that, she shot me a dirty look, and replied for him: "No, he won't be going to college. That kind of worldly indoctrination is not for MY son."

I looked at the kid. He kind of shrugged his shoulders, and was embarrassed. I knew then they were JWs. I dropped the subject, and got on with the photos.

As the session was ending, mom went out to her car to get her checkbook. Taking advantage of a few minutes without her, he says to me, "Sorry for the way my mom reacted, our church is really against college educations, and she's really really into church."

"It's OK," I said. "What are you going to do instead of college then?"

"Oh, I'm probably going to college," he replied. "I want to be a lawyer. I just have to turn 18 and get out of the house before I can do what I want instead of what the church wants."

I told him I understood completely, having been raised a mormon...

"Yeah, I think we're worse than mormons," he said. "At least they get to go to college."

I really felt sorry for the kid.
It turned out OK though -- he's now in law school :)
Though I think his family has essentially disowned him...

Hi ificouldhietokolob,

>>I really felt sorry for the kid.
It turned out OK though -- he's now in law school :)
Though I think his family has essentially disowned him...<<

In regards to baptized individuals disfellowshipped (judged as an unrepentant sinner), disassociated (asked to be recognized as a non-member) or dissassociated-by-action (not DF'd but took some unacceptable action since leaving the faith like joining another church, celebrating Christmas, voting, joining the military, etc) JWs practice shunning. This involves ceasing all contact, even with family members. In a recent video presentation they illustrated this by having a mother notice her DF'd daughter was calling and refusing to answer the phone.

Although that is the official doctrine, I always recommend to former members to consider not going along with the program -- unless they continue to believe in the faith. By keeping up what contact a friend or family member may allow, some have found, not all individual JWs take a strict view.

That said, it can be pretty harsh and it is so great when people can express empathy for our plight.

Cheers,
-Randy

Hi PollyThinks,

That sounds odd that they had a NIV Bible. In all my years as one of Jehovah's Witnesses (from 1981 to 2007) I took the New World Translation with me and everyone else did too. Unless of course you knew that a person preferred a different translation. Since I left the faith a new version of the NWT has been produced. In hard copy form it has a silver cover.

JWs have, in the past, printed a few Bibles that contain original Greek. The Kingdom Interlinear Translation was one. They also printed Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott.

In the past JWs were rooted in "Bible Study" with an emphasis on end-of-days. Alas, the modern group is much less so. They seem more focused on a simplified message for less educated folks.

Cheers,
-Randy

Hi Everyone,

Several comments in this thread about education beyond high school. Sadly, that is unfortunately very true. JW parents are taught to value education in the lower grades and thus many of their children do well in school. But going to College or University is taboo. It is not completely forbidden. In fact the JW family that took me as a young man allowed for their son to go to college where he learned computer programming.

Within the JW mindset though there are several problems. First the narrative is we are living deep in the time of the end and soon all humankind will be facing the Great Tribulation and Armageddon events (Rev 16:16). Those blessed by Jehovah to survive this event will go on to live in the new world where they will have 1000 years to learn, then after passing one final test, all eternity.

Thus JWs live in a binary world, the "spiritual paradise" within the organization and Satan's world (2 Cor 4:4) soon doomed for destruction.

Pursuit of a career and education in "this system" clashes with that view by implying there is a future now and there are good things in "the world."

Pretty glad to be away from all that now!

Cheers,
-Randy

My wife teaches music at elementary schools-you can imagine how difficult it is for her to put together school presentations that won't piss off the JW families...no Christmas, no patriotic, no Halloween....


She finally just told 'em to sit it out.

Hi Chicken N. Backpacks,

My oldest three daughters were raised as JWs. We're now Unitarian Universalists, so it is a bit different for our youngest.

JW parents differ in how they approach these things, but we always found it easiest when a music teacher did not adjust their program, but simply allowed our daughters the option of declining. A couple times we ran into issues when a teacher tried to convince our daughters to play a song like Jingle Bells when she felt uncomfortable about it. At the time we were annoyed and just thought, "can you not just respect hers and our wishes?" But that was the exception. By in large, most teachers were wonderful at accommodating our girls while not making them feel embarrassed or that they were missing out.

Only after leaving the faith did we think a bit broader about this subject. First we noticed faiths like JWs are kinda like being married to someone who is insecure and jealous. Anything that generates excitement and happiness must come from within the faith. If it comes from an outside source (Christmas, Patriotism, Halloween, etc) then it must be rejected.

Second, it is children that take the brunt of these policies. Now of course there are examples of adults too. Certainly I still respect how individual JWs stood up to Nazi regime during the WWII era. But in most of the modern world, adult JWs are adept at avoiding these situations. When a JW friend shared tickets to the Arizona Diamondbacks game, I didn't think too much about it. When we got there he simply stay away from our seats during the national anthem, rather than do something like remain seated.

Third, is these stances cause a separation and isolation between JWs and others. As a JW, I was most relaxed and comfortable around other JWs. There I knew nothing unexpected would happen, like references to Christmas presents, or someone spontaneously raising a glass to toast (clinking glass is thought by some to scare away the Devil, so JWs, based on this, don't do that).

Finally, while I think we did appreciate what teachers did to accommodate us, we didn't think it through really. In regards to their stance on blood, a medical team may do all they can and yet lose a patient. As a JW I really had no ability to understand the frustration we caused doctors and nurses. Or a patient may be saved at higher risk and greater cost, but again, I would not have thought of that.

Cheers,
-Randy

Hi logged out for this one,

>>My JW relative has extreme anxiety (horror!) that we, the siblings, won't make it. I never did see how they fell for such nonsense... but who am I to talk?<<

For JWs there is some comfort in that they believe death is merely a state of non-existence. No hell fire for JWs. They also believe that nearly everyone, "righteous and unrighteous", who has died will be brought back to life on paradise earth (Acts 24:45). In that imagined future, Thomas Monson will awake to discover the LDS views were wrong and JWs were right. He, as an "unrighteous" one, will then have the opportunity to learn the "truth" in a world not under the influence of Satan. If he rejects that, then at the end of the 1000 years he will be put to death forever.

Unfortunately, even though hell fire is not a belief, there is still much that generates anxiety. The infamous word "probably" that appears at Zephaniah 2:3 constantly reminds JWs that their personal fate is not even certain. If they want to survive the Great Tribulation and Armageddon they must constantly "seek Jehovah." And since no one put to death by Jesus and his heavenly army at Armageddon will be resurrected, the JW is left to wonder what will happen to their family at that time. Although technically the judging of the "sheep" that survive and the "goats" that die (Matthew 25:31-36) is left to the "Son of Man" (i.e. Jesus) JWs see a strong correlation between being a JW and a "sheep" that survives.

While many Christians see the parable notes about "feeding the least of my brothers" as a call to help the poor in general, JWs attach special meaning to the word "brothers." The "brothers" are this special group of 144,000 Christians that go to heaven. They also happen to be leaders in the Christian community like Peter and Paul. In the modern era these "brothers" are about 18,000 special JWs who "partake." So to be a sheep you must do good, not to the poor or even fellow JWs in general, but your charity must focus on that small group, especially the men of the Governing Body who lead the organization.

All of this creates a rather bleak outlook. Nothing of the current world is good -- it is all under Satan's control. And it is nearly certain all outside the faith who face the Armageddon event will not chose Jehovah's side and thus be put to death forever. Those who deliberately left the faith are especially doomed since they should know better.

Cheers,
-Randy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2018 10:22AM by randygalbraith.

I'm a public school teacher. Accommodating JW kids is generally not an issue. We just excuse them from holiday-themed activities and find someone in the school to look after them. It might be the librarian or a JW teacher. The kids sit out the pledge and that's not a problem.

I've found that even elementary level JW kids are well trained by their parents about what they are and are not allowed to do.

The only time I was upset was when a very nice JW girl was proselytizing during lunchtime, including handing out pamphlets. She is allowed to do that, but IMO other parents might not like that at all. I know I wouldn't.

My JW relative has extreme anxiety (horror!) that we, the siblings, won't make it.
I never did see how they fell for such nonsense... but who am I to talk?

Different parents have differing expectations and teachers need to contact them with alternate activities whenwcwe they do holiday activities or programs, and they have to work out a plan for allowing other students to pledge the flag while JW kids do something else for those minutes. Some JW kiddies wanted to re-explain their beliefs daily and I often had to tell them we understood their beliefs and didn't need to hear about them every day.

One of my students wanted to read a very long article against dinosaurs for sharing time. The trouble was that her reading wasn't engaging and the other kids didn't listen and started to mumble, yawn, and squirm. I cut her off, but she persisted for two or three more weeks of sharing time reading that damn article without having anyone paying attention to it. At conference time I told the mom she couldn't read articles from religious publications. The child just needed to show and tell about something interesting like everyone else.

No college explains why their literature fliers are third grade level.

I agree it seems strange for JWs not to be using their own translation (New World Translation/NWT). Some of the main scriptures that the WatchTower/WT organization uses to back up their doctrine will not appear in Christian bibles. A prominent example in the NWT is John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was **a** God" while in accepted mainstream Christian bibles John 1:1 is translated "...and the Word was God" - i.e. teaching Trinity, as opposed to the unitarian view of JWs). How would a JW explain their particular doctrine about the Word/Jesus being "a god" as opposed to part of the Godhead/Trinity if they were using an NIV bible that stated "...and the Word was God"?

Re the colour of the cover, the day-to-day NWT when I was a JW was green. Their super deluxe bibles had black covers/gold writing on the cover (if you ordered it specially, eg for a presentation after a baptism, which is when friends gave me my deluxe version).

Re higher education: Yeah, not encouraged. Actually, positively discouraged. Part of it is, as said, the daily immersion in the JW world which could lead to too much contact with the non-JW world (seen as a bad influence) but more so, as I understood it, because if you believe Armageddon is eternally just around the corner (as they have continued to teach since the 1800s) why would you "waste time" learning something you won't need. I had wanted to be a nurse since a young child but my JW friends said to me "we won't need nurses after Armageddon!" (due to living in Paradise where nobody would ever be sick). Fortunately for me, I ended up leaving the WT Society and did eventually enter nursing school, later than planned, but I am so glad for the opportunity, the knowledge, experienced and career that ensued.

I remain suspicious of any orthodoxy that decries education. The more learning the better, say I, as if your beliefs can't hold up to incoming information then maybe you need to rethink things.

One of my best and oldest friends is a JW convert. We don't discuss religion. All about the respect we have for each other. We talk about high end bourbon and single malt scotch.

Yeah. At least they never told me I couldn't enjoy a good drink. And plenty of tea. I never liked coffee.

So while we couldn't celebrate Christmas, birthdays, Easter, Thanksgiving or Hallowe'en, we could drink as much as possible without "excess".

Hi Nightingale,

>>A prominent example in the NWT is John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was **a** God" while in accepted mainstream Christian bibles John 1:1 is translated "...and the Word was God" - i.e. teaching Trinity, as opposed to the unitarian view of JWs). How would a JW explain their particular doctrine about the Word/Jesus being "a god" as opposed to part of the Godhead/Trinity if they were using an NIV bible that stated "...and the Word was God"?<<

It is true Jehovah's Witnesses rejected the trinity doctrine a long time prior to the arrival of the NWT. At the time they would have pointed to the original Greek and delved into complex arguments about "anarthrous predicate nouns."

There is a certain irony in this question for me personally. Because I thought we had made such great arguments against the Trinity it blinded me some obvious elephants in the room. I think apologetics can work that way... you sense something is amiss with your faith but then wind up admiring those in the faith willing to take the tiger by the tail and deal with it. As long as you wind up on the JW side, you'll be comfortable again.

All the while there sit the elephants. "Jehovah" 237 times in the NWT NT, what is up up with that? And while many verses in the NWT are a fair and reasonable translation, every time "God", "Father" and "Jesus" are mentioned together there is a clear effort to steer away from any idea of trinity or co-equal.

But it is the "Jehovah" thing that unraveled it for me. The NWT is well justified in using Jehovah in the OT where the most ancient texts show it was in the original. But there is nothing of the sort that supports such in the NT. So the JW argument is self-serving and inconsistent. In the OT they argue that replacing with "Jehovah" with "Lord" was wrong, that is not faithful to the original text. But then turn around and commit the same sin, but in reverse, replacing "Lord" with "Jehovah" in the NT with no support from extent manuscripts.

>>Re the colour of the cover, the day-to-day NWT when I was a JW was green. Their super deluxe bibles had black covers/gold writing on the cover (if you ordered it specially, eg for a presentation after a baptism, which is when friends gave me my deluxe version).<<

The original NWT being green was likely an anti-Christendom stance. Whoever pushed that later lost out to voices that suggested there was no need to be needlessly offensive. Of course the New-NWT now has a silver color.

Cheers,
-Randy

I don't think they're totally wrong on the college thing. At the least, it is oversold - we're in an education bubble. Apparently now college loan debt is over a trillion dollars, surpassing credit card debt.

Tution doubled in the 5 years one daughter was at our state university. That is a scam. Government aid allows colleges to jack up their prices.

My daughters got degrees they don't use, and have loans to pay off.

Had a young friend over today whose wife finished a master's degree and has worked just a few months. Now $60,000 in debt and is begging to quit and stay home with her kids, but not an option.

This guy's other friend finished a degree with $80,000 of debt and is looking for minimum wage work. Had a job in a NAPA parts warehouse.

This guy's brother became an engineer but hates it and is looking at other options, including opening a daycare center.

Guy at work told me his brother spent $100,000 putting his daughter through a prestigious engineering school, and she never worked a day, but is having babies.

My wife got a teaching degree but hated the public school system and quit. Then worked in a flower shop.

Lastly, I got a big advanced degree, but hated my career and took a job in a warehouse for $8 an hour 17 years ago.

College works for some people, but the notion that everyone should go to college is complete and utter BS. Our area now has a housing shortage due to lack of construction workers. Nothing wrong with the trades.

Alot of people are made to feel like failures because they didn't, or couldn't, go to college. My brother couldn't hack it, and his wife resented him for decades due to lack of money and damage to her image. He was brilliant with his hands, and has eventually gotten big money from his business, and she suddenly loves him.

There's alot of truth to the quote:

"You spend thousands of dollars and the best years of your life going to college so you can be considered good enough for a job you hate for a boss who doesn't care about you, so you can be paid money which doesn't exist on order to buy stuff you don't need to impress people you don't even like"