I've really enjoyed lurking around for a while and thought I'd contribute some thoughts and questions. I'm still in the church but have been heading toward the exit mentally and emotionally for a while. It will surely end my marriage and I really don't want that to impact my kids right now, so I'm in for the time being.

But anyway....I've been thinking about the "Plan of Salvation". I've been taught it since I was an infant, enjoyed "My Turn on Earth" as a child and taught it in church and as a missionary ad nauseum. It amazes me that until now I've never really considered how imperfect it has been in its execution.

Ok...so the purpose of life is to get a body and to "prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them." (test them, growth, development, becoming god-like, etc.)

Now according to demographic researchers at the Population Reference Bureau (PRB) there have been approximately 108 billion people born on this planet up through 2015. Taking out the 7 or so billion that are currently on the planet that leaves around a 100 billion that have lived and died over time.

So the question is obviously begged - what is the point in sending that many people to this planet to fulfill a purpose that 99.X% of them will never know about while they're alive to fulfill the meaningful part of it?

So I get that according to LDS doctrine they'll all have the opportunity to do all this stuff in the afterlife using missionaries in the spirit world and proxy temple ordinances on this side.

But really? Seems like an awful waste of time and resources to leave the vast majority unaware of why they were here just so us latter-dayers could spend hours in a big white building to make up for it.

I call it poor execution....and lame.

If I may: in the Mormon construct, there were nowhere near 108 billion people born on the earth. That is a dirty lie invented by Satan and his main agents, known as "so-called scientists". In the Mormon construct pretty much everybody who lived before Noah is recorded in the Old Testament. After the Flood people started to spread out, but the time span (a few thousand years) would not produce very many people. And everybody on the earth, per the Mormon construct, was exposed to The Gospel trough direct teachings of the prophets or teaching passed down by family home evening lessons. So, per Mormonism, the problem of population is so small as to be manageable, if not outright negligible.

The Mormon construct excluding actual population statistics is a good point. But, even if you were to accept a much smaller total historical population, the flashing red BS meter should still indicate a problem with the logic.

Excellent point. It is a rather poor plan.

And then Add on to that, there's the problem with using missionaries in the spirit world. Remember how we were always told that when we die our memory of our pre-existence life will return to us (picture the LDS movie "Man's Search for Happiness").

So in LDS doctrine we are told that each of us who comes to the earth knew about the Plan of Salvation in the pre-existence before we were born and agreed to the plan, and the memory of it is veiled while we live our earthly life. Since we already agreed to the Plan of Salvation BEFORE we were born, and we ALREADY KNEW all about it BEFORE we were born, AND if our memory of it returns when we die....then why would we need missionaries in the Spirit World after death?

Everyone in the Spirit World after death has their memory of it restored to them. So, why would they need missionaries to teach it to them???? They already KNOW it.

Think about it....missionary work in the spirit world. Sounds like endless hometeaching to me (aka - HELL)

there are 56 billion codes in the human genome,every one of trillions of cells in each body gets its own copy of the blueprint for that person.

There have been about 108 billion humans born. According to MORmONISM, super critical next life Salvation for each person was made dependent on knowing about the existence of some other actually pretty obscure human buried in history among all humanity. A situation far worse than the proverbially problematic trying to locate a needle in a haystack, a recipe for failure and damnation much more than salvation. The kind of proposal that SHOULD get a person fired for suggesting it ..... if the aim/goal was really salvation for mankind.

The video suggests that the busyness of missionary work in the spirit world distracts dead members from the fact that they are in Hell.

I don't buy the whole "because you don't believe in my version of the myth, you're going to be in torturous Hell." I don't buy the myth at all.

My point was that doing hometeaching 24/7 would suck! It's bad enough once a month. For some it might actually feel like hell.

corallus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't buy the whole "because you don't believe
> in my version of the myth, you're going to be in
> torturous Hell."

The thing is...... MORmONS are ALREADY IN HELL because they are ALREADY in the (dead) MORmON religion, they are just TOO STUPID TO KNOW IT, nothing changes as MORmONS stick with their preference for MORmONISM even as they go to the next existence.

> I don't buy the myth at all.

Well, thanks for freeing yourself from that notion, but that does not /did not do anything for MORmONS !!!

> My point was that doing home teaching 24/7 would
> suck! It's bad enough once a month. For some it
> might actually feel like hell.

Unless they were stupid enough to like it and believe that nothing could be better than acting like a MORmON, you know - just like real MORmONS do!

Exactly. Now, think about doing the temple work for 100+ billion people at 4 hours per baptism, washing, anointing, endowment, sealing, and ordination...about half a trillion hours just to get the legalistics in. Keep posting! The One in a Million Boner.

It would sure save time if the morg allowed death-bed repentances.

They just need to figure out how to monetize it!

Bequeath enough money to TSCC in yoour will and you are forgiven for everything.

Your eternal census number of 108 Billion is one of the biggest sticking points there is if one is trying to make sense of the church. If this Mormon church is all Heavenly Father has to show for Himself after the supposed 6,000 years (haha) then he is pretty ineffective as a god. How could you call him Omnipotent, Omniscient, or Omni-anything at all? Right there, Mormonism is a joke. And all those billions are in spirit prison? Yeah. Right. Satan is running circles around him.

On top of that, what bugged me when I was a TBM was that anyone who died and goes to spirit prison is going to be offered the chance to accept the Mormon gospel and get out of jail. Who the hell is going to not accept at that point and remain incarcerated?

Lame. You are right.

I like this part of the whole Mormon conundrum because that is the part I just can not abide. And what is the big reward. Even today one of my non-Mormon friends said, "Oh, I see in the NYT that Monson the Prophet has gone off to rule his own planet." I responded," Yeah, he has hied off to Kolob." He didn't get that but it gave me pleasure to say it. Then I thought, I guess to get his mansion. "In my father's house are many mansions."

Is that the reward? A big mansion now that planets are out of the prize catalogue? Isn't that desire man-made, I wanna win the Powerball thinking? So materialistic. And Mormons are. God rewards in dollars, you know? So they say. Just pay your tithing and you'll see.

Besides all the goods we have on J.S. and Brigham and all, nothing else about Mormonism stands up to scrutiny either.

Good luck with your family. It can be rough and I wish you the best.

And of course, regarding the Spirits in "Spirit Prison" in the afterlife, "Who is going to not accept at that point and remain incarcerated?"

Especially when they have had their memory of their pre-existence restored to them and know that we all were taught the Plan of Salvation in the pre-existence.

Exactly. I like the way you detailed it-- so much more obviously ridiculous than the way I said it. The veil is lifted. We remember everything. Like corallus said, LAME!

In my ward over the years and even a few years ago at my father's funeral, there is this story they kept telling where this little boy who died comes back to get his grandfather to be his missionary companion or vice versa---I forget. Everyone's eyes were moist as they listened. My eyes were spinning like tops listening to that.

It is interesting in all my studies of the after life there are no stories of 'spirit prisons' or any problem people have NDEs or other 'experiences' claim to not allow them to visit their passed relatives.

On the other hand, there are millions of people each year (reporting NDEs) that claims very different experiences and report nothing 'Mormon' at all!!!

How much 'anecdotal evidence' can Mormons ----- totally refuse to accept???? While accepting things few if no one has actually experienced.

I guess the Devil is active in producing these 'spiritual experiences' to 'fool' everyone but believing Mormons!

Except Muslims.

Muslims don't have NDEs. At least it's extremely rare that a Muslim ever mentions having had an NDE

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the other hand, there are millions of people
> each year (reporting NDEs)...

Where are these "millions" of reported NDEs tallied and/or recorded?

I'd sure like to read some.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spiritist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the other hand, there are millions of people
> > each year (reporting NDEs)...
>
> Where are these "millions" of reported NDEs
> tallied and/or recorded?
>
> I'd sure like to read some.
___________________________________________________________

Here are some references to the 'millions' 'reported'. Unfortunately, they are probably not all 'individually reported' or 'recorded'. But you can read many on NDE and Paranormal web sites just need to search for them. There are also a number of books that try to summarize the many to make some 'consistent conclusions'.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-common-are-near-death-experiences-ndes-by-the-numbers_757401.html

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/number_nde_usa.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2018 09:22PM by spiritist.

Yeah, estimates without backing evidence from "pro" NDE groups.
I'll pass.

FYI, that's an excellent example of overblown hyperbole. Claim there are "millions" of something per year, but then not be able to actually SHOW "millions" of them per year. Or even ten thousand per year. But, hey, make the claim anyway -- because it sounds so much more impressive to people who don't bother to check facts than "a few thousand, at most, are reliably reported and/or written down each year."

Of course, even if there were "millions" per year, that wouldn't have anything to do with any of them being "supernatural" or "spiritual" or anything else, but that's a fallacy I've pointed out numerous times and you've ignored. Oh, well.

Kolob stated; 'Of course, even if there were "millions" per year, that wouldn't have anything to do with any of them being "supernatural" or "spiritual" or anything else, but that's a fallacy I've pointed out numerous times and you've ignored. Oh, well."
___________________________________________________________

At least we have 'a lot' of anecdotal evidence of 'something ----- eg. after life, spirits, etc.' from 'average' people across the world versus nothing 'spiritual' about 'no after life, no spirits, no God, etc. etc.' from 'atheists and non believers'.

To me and many 'something that cannot be adequately explained by anyone else is much better than nothing'.

The above is especially true if one has experience many more than a few incidents. So I can't fault people without experiences. That is why I encourage people to seek experiences and judge for themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2018 10:31AM by spiritist.

I think the more telling aspect of "near death experiences"
(whether they happen or not is a different topic) is that the individual who claims to have had one never comes back and says that their religion had it all wrong. They always seem to follow a particular pattern that emulates the individuals beliefs about the after life.

gettinreal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the more telling aspect of "near death
> experiences"
> (whether they happen or not is a different topic)
> is that the individual who claims to have had one
> never comes back and says that their religion had
> it all wrong. They always seem to follow a
> particular pattern that emulates the individuals
> beliefs about the after life.
__________________________________________________________

I agree that many people try to fit their experience in with their 'religion' ----- I did this for many years until I woke up.

I read one book that stated over a longer term many/most NDE people (who were religious) drifted away from organized religion realizing what they experienced had nothing to do with religion at all.

That is why reading books that try to summarize many NDEs are important to see what is consistent and what is not, etc.

The idiocy of the whole "plan" is illustrated when considering the following narrative:
God puts Adam and Eve in a garden paradise where they are immortal, but keeps them ignorant. Plants a tree of which the fruit will make them wise but tells them not to eat it because it will cause them to die.
Enter Lucifer... he mucks the whole thing up! Now god has a dilemma. His plan has been thwarted...or has it?? Solution?? Send himself in the form of a demigod, after having sex (i know, i know... immaculate conception...) with his earthly mother, so that he can take upon himself all the sins of the world and die on the cross. Thus saving the souls of all mankind....but ONLY if they BELIEVE in him. WHAT???? What kind of messed up "plan" is that?
It is only the sort of narrative that humans would come up with as they piece together a religious narrative. NOT the product of an omnipotent, omniscient deity.

sorry... that ^^^^^^ ended up in the wrong thread...

and families being together, but we all have our own planets? Who will be living with? Who will my children be living with? Me? Not likely. Will I be living with my husband? Not likely. Do I really want that sister of mine to be part of my life? More likely she won't be living with me.

Or like Kirby said a few years ago, if only some of us make it to the CK, then what if those of your family who make it are the ones you don't like and you're stuck living with them?

So much makes no sense.

Especially the temple.

And how then, do you do temple work for the vast majority of people born here on earth and died having never had their names recorded in the human record? If they have to have their temple work done for them here on earth, they are screwed. If they don't have to have their temple work done here on earth, then why does anyone have to have their temple work done here on earth.

NONE. OF. IT. MAKES. SENSE. IF. YOU. GIVE. ANY. REAL. THOUGHT. TO. IT.

"When I get a planet, everyone will be born with a wi-fi connection to naturally existing wi-fi coverage. People will very quickly learn to keep their soul-mail name private. Spammers will die horrible, public deaths."
- - Judic West, Earl of Duke-Duke-Duke

The other thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense is the idea of families being together forever in the after life. According to the plan of salvation we were all spirit brothers and sisters for eternity before coming to earth. When we pass from this life to the next and the veil is lifted we will remember that we are all brothers and sisters and used to hang out with each other in the preexistence. We will also realize that we are now in a place where there is no death or pain and will forget emotions such as fear and worry. We won't feel the same as we did on earth and probably won't feel a strong need to be around our parents, children, spouses, etc., because they are all just brothers and sisters anyway and now that we know no one will die, get sick or hurt, be depressed or destitute, we won't feel a need to be close to them and watch over them. We will be free to explore the universe and hook up with siblings we haven't seen in a while. Why would we want to only live with the family we had for such a short time on earth?

So basically men will be having sex with thousands of their sisters? Knowingly?

plan of salivation

The BoA is known to be completely bogus because the papyri were found and translated by real Egyptologists. The BoM has been proven to be a 19th century construction. Really, totally proven. The First Vision could not have happened the way Joe said it did, and all indications are that it didn’t happen. So, if the church is wrong about all that, maybe 99% of doctrine, what are we to make of the remaining 1%?

How likely is it that we are here to be tested, when that doctrine just so happens to be a good way to control us? Do you think a thought control cult might have a motive to spin things that way.

When you look for God, do you find him outside or inside? God is always inside. The soul of God is inside every Human. How could a love like that judge? It’s all one thing, all of us and creation. Life isn’t a test. It’s an experience. It’s your experience. You get to make whatever you want out of it.

If you believe the unbelievable as the Mormons demand, does that make you praiseworthy or does that make you gullible? Have you conquered or have you been conquered? Are you a man or are you a mouse?

Faith is the ultimate control tool. It has no value except to get you to , again, believe the unbelievable.

Mormons - turning credulity into life’s greatness virtue since 1830.

According to mormon doctrine, we lived with our heavenly parents in the pre-existence. Since god resides in "Heaven", that makes the pre-existence..heaven. Heaven is supposed to be a peaceful, blissful place where there is no arguing, bickering, or "spiritual warfare", and yet there was plenty of arguing to go around and HF kicks some of his spirit kids out of the home. I used to be a hamster in the wheel, trying to excuse or figure this one out.

Every human group anthropologists have studied have a creation story.

The cult of Mormonism adds their plan of salvation on to the package causing lots of speculation, headache, and even guilt.
I know I am not alone on this one but I kept asking myself what I had done in the preexistence that shot me down to earth landing me in the unhappy, dysfunctional, emotional abusing hole I landed in.

I was fucked up to be begin via my family, but after learning the MormonCult's take on their heavenly plan, I was smothered in revolting smelly heart-wrenching shame, making it hard to breathe. What in the world had I done, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, how could I fix it if I did not know what I had done??? Why would a God I hoped and, most importantly NEEDED so very much to love me since my family was what it was, operate this way?

Fuck the MormonCult's revolting plan.

Great thread, and good responses all; well, almost all. This was a line of reasoning that went on my shelf, along with other questions, until I researched the history and validity of the revelations, first vision, court proceedings, affadavits of the neighbors etc; of the early founders of the Mormon religion. That is what sealed the deal for me. The utter falseness of it all. Kudos to you. The soup nazi would say (if he were LDS) No soup for you!… I would say give you a double helping!

I've written a longer version of this in previous posts, but it boils downs to: My take on "The Plan" is that you start out in Paradise, then have to go to a shitty place to learn humility, all so you can...get back in to Paradise.

WTF!?!?

There was a guy a month ago who was bored so he crunched some numbers...as near as I can member GAWD would have a hundred million wives each having 1400 spirit babies...somehow I think min with his boner is not accurate.... surely gawd must have more and be busier than a three peckered billy goat...in that light the Mormon theory of everything just becomes more ridiculous

It's an Upside Down plan for sure.

M@t

...not to mention all of the creatures that lived here on the earth 500 million years before humans lived on this planet. It seems like a waste...no? It seems odd that the first creatures that evolved to the point of self-awareness also created the first gods in their own image. If the T-Rex was self aware our version of what a god looks like would be a bit different.