My studies and experiences have led me to see a difference between the LDS Church (often referred to here as LDS Inc.) and the truths that have been revealed and taught over the years (that I call Mormonism).

CLEARLY, LDS Inc. has a lot of problems - historical, cultural, political, and doctrinal. However, there are eschatological doctrines that make SO MUCH SENSE that jive with 'secular' facts and history. I like this. I've also had spiritual experiences as a result of employing methods taught in Mormonism that are meaningful, and accretive in my life. Prayer, temple worship, existential insights - to name a few.

Can one disagree with (reject?) LDS Inc., while embracing Mormonism? How have others practically addressed this (church attendance, tithing, open dissent vs. quiet study, etc...)

Would be interested in hearing others' perspectives and experiences and resolutions.

SouthernDoubter Wrote:
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> Can one disagree with (reject?) LDS Inc., while
> embracing Mormonism? How have others practically
> addressed this (church attendance, tithing, open
> dissent vs. quiet study, etc...)

Sure. Why would one?

The fundamental truth claims (BoM, BoA, "first vision," "restoration," etc.) that make up "mormonism" are either entirely lacking in supporting evidence or demonstrably false. That's the case whether LDS, Inc. is a vile money-making corporation masquerading as a church or not.

Your "spiritual experiences" are your own. They don't come from mormonism. They don't depend on mormonism. If they are related to the demonstrably false truth claims mentioned above (or any others), then you should probably re-think their "spiritual" nature. Otherwise, ditch the mormonism and be "spiritual." If there is a god-thing, and you've had experiences with it, it doesn't need mormonism. Neither do you.

Isn't what you're expressing the basis of the Snufferite schism? (sort of)

Directionally, yes. But, since Denver Snuffer doesn't want to lead a movement, and leaves others rightly to their personal inspirations, I am left with the question of HOW to practice my faith, and be genuine & sincere in my worship without rejecting everything. How do others who are in this position worship?

Not looking for the right answer, but ideas. Rejecting it all, and walking away isn't the right answer for me.

SouthernDoubter Wrote:
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> Rejecting it all, and walking away isn't the right
> answer for me.

Even if it's all false?

Hmm.

Not trying to push you, just trying to understand...am I right that you are looking to find a comfortable place for you, and not necessarily looking for "truth?"

>
> Even if it's all false?
>

See, Hie, you're very 'science' minded (Scientist 200 years ago: "Add two more leeches!!"), and I really have no quibbles. But you're also a golfer, so you have to know about 'beliefs'!

I'd like to think that "...all false" is a position so remote as to be virtually unattainable. I think you're somewhat sympathetic to the position that that LD$inc is built on quick sand, while mormonism (sorry, man, I still can't capitalize it) has attachments to the heart.

I can maintain that Zarahemla never had a decent NFL team because it never existed, but I have to give some slack to someone who wants to believe that Families are Forever, and Jesus is the Reason, etc.

I'll support any mormon who isn't paying tithing! (so to speak...)

I believe I'll play 18 holes this Sunday, rain or shine...does that count?

Please note, I didn't say it WAS all false. Much of it is indeed demonstrably false, some of it there's no evidence to tell either way, and (yes) some of it is "true." Very little, but some.

It was more a hypothetical to gauge intent: OP said that he had basically already made up his mind, he wasn't going to reject it all and walk away. I wanted to see if that pre-determined stance had any wiggle room...what if it IS all false? Would he still stay? If that's the case, then what his motives are differ from what they would be if he'd walk away if it were all demonstrably false.

BTW, I hear Zarahemla went 16-0 in 322. But the highlight video got accidentally erased when somebody taped "Anti-Nehpi-Lehi vs. Bountiful" over it. :)

I don't believe or think it's all false. A few personal perspectives:

Modern revelation brought back temples, where I have had very strong personal experiences. Temples are holy places - this I believe through personal experience. I commune with God better there than anywhere else.

Modern revelation introduced priesthood power. While the keys of priesthood leadership are undoubtedly flawed, or perhaps mythical, the blessing power of the priesthood I have seen.

Modern revelation introduced the idea of men becoming gods. This is the logical path that advancing humanity is on, and we can all see.

I could give more examples, but I don't want to 'bear my testimony' or be cliché. I just want to make a point.

I simply want to convey that:
Just as much as I reject the idea that 'if the BOM is true, then I must accept everything that the Q15 has ever said,' I also reject the idea that 'because the BOA and many other LDS ideas are untenable means nothing that has come from modern Mormon revelation is true.'

You're dead on, we need to be looking for truth, for methods of how to find and discern truth, and how to live our lives according to that truth.

OK.

I'll simply point out to you that no "modern revelation" is required for any of those things to have occurred. They could have occurred as the result of the ideas of regular human beings -- without any "revelation." As the result of plain old human ideas, you could still feel what you felt and experience what you experienced.

Think about it.
And good luck finding your way.

p.s. one more thing -- we actually can't "all see" that humans becoming gods is the path humanity is on. In fact, I see zero evidence of any such thing. So does most of humanity. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2018 02:12PM by ificouldhietokolob.

You're right - my "we can all see" regarding becoming gods is quite a stretch.

I guess I'm just a hopeful futurist who sees the fast rate at which we're advancing in knowledge, science, technology and ability.

I can easily foresee the future when 'man' is able to roam the universe and create & resurrect life through genetic manipulation. Sounds like god-like power to me!

SouthernDoubter Wrote:
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> I can easily foresee the future when 'man' is able
> to roam the universe and create & resurrect life
> through genetic manipulation. Sounds like
> god-like power to me!

Sounds like science to me. :)

Good luck in your quest.

I think I get it. You want to be a "cafeteria" mormon. Pick what you want and what works for you from the menu of mormonism and pass on the rest, all the while feeling like you have maintained your spirituality as it relates to the "truth" you have found in mormonism.

Kind of like a buffet with "healthy" food and "junk" food and a person that takes only what they want....the junk, because hey, thats what works for them....and then feeling like they are maintaining a balanced diet. Mormonism doesn't work like that.

But, whatever works for you.

And I'm in agreement with Hie on the "modern revelation" and "logical paths we can all see". You're describing you and you're experience only.

Good luck, eat well :)

SouthernDoubter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Modern revelation brought back temples, where I
> have had very strong personal experiences.
> Temples are holy places - this I believe through
> personal experience. I commune with God better
> there than anywhere else.

Temples have been built in Asia non-stop for thousands of years. They were never gone. The reason Joseph Smith established temples was to administer oaths of secrecy to his mistresses. Maybe he got off on that sort of thing. You can get a special feeling in any temple. Consciousness leaves its imprint on buildings. All it takes is believers.

> Modern revelation introduced priesthood power.
> While the keys of priesthood leadership are
> undoubtedly flawed, or perhaps mythical, the
> blessing power of the priesthood I have seen.

I rank this up there with Dumbo's feather. The priesthood works because you believe it, and you chalk it up to the feather. It's a shortcut to faith. It's a form of white folk magic. White witches have been around far longer than Mormonism. I'll admit Joseph was clever to adopt it.

> Modern revelation introduced the idea of men
> becoming gods. This is the logical path that
> advancing humanity is on, and we can all see.

Megalomaniacs justifying their callous indifference to the masses, to me, doesn't pass for modern revelation. Brigham Young dealt with his enemies the 19th century way - scorched Earth. Read how he treated the original inhabitants of Utah valley here: http://www.timpanogostribe.com

That Man can think this way shows a profound disconnect with the divine. All that BY revealed was his interpretation of reality as viewed from the inside of his own bung hole.

> I simply want to convey that:
> Just as much as I reject the idea that 'if the BOM
> is true, then I must accept everything that the
> Q15 has ever said,' I also reject the idea that
> 'because the BOA and many other LDS ideas are
> untenable means nothing that has come from modern
> Mormon revelation is true.'

I get it, you're in the "Aw shucks, it can't be that bad" stage. Mormonism is like a $50 cup of coffee. You can get the same cup of coffee anywhere else for $2 to $5.

I hope for some of the things you mentioned from mormonism too...life after death and being with loved ones, being able to create things in a spiritual realm that manefest in a physical world, etc.

But I don't look for an outside source to confirm those things are true....because I don't feel there is such a source.....definitely not mormonism.

And I'm not just biased against mormonism. I think reincarnation would be cool, but I don't look to Buddhism to confirm that it is.

SouthernDoubter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>Modern revelation brought back temples, where I have had very strong personal experiences. Temples are holy places - this I believe through personal experience. I commune with God better there than anywhere else.

Brought back temples from where? Modern Mormon temples are nothing like the ancient Jewish temple in Jerusalem. What they are very much like is the Masonic temples from which they derive, which date back to the guilds of the middle ages.

I don't doubt that you have had spiritual experiences in the temple. But every religion has holy places. Nature has holy places. Temples are in no way unique in this regard. Mormonism may meet your needs, but that does not make it "true."

>>Modern revelation introduced priesthood power.

Surely you are aware that the Catholic priesthood (and by extension, Protestant priests,) and the Orthodox priesthood date back to the earliest days of Christianity? Joseph Smith did not come up with anything new here.

>>Modern revelation introduced the idea of men becoming gods.

Right, with polygamy and women having endless spirit babies. This may sound wonderful to you, but it doesn't sound so wonderful to many faithful Mormon women.

Like ElderOldDog said, and the leaders of these denominations splintered off from mormonism did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2018 12:45PM by desertwoman.

Man oh man! Scrolling down that Wikipedia entry was a real treat!

The Eastern Orthodox churches and also the Catholic church teach that human beings who reach Heaven will become Deified. There is a highest level of Heaven where this will happen, after the Resurrection. I believe that Joseph Smith ripped the idea from Catholics who had come to Nauvoo. But then he distorted it. The Orthodox and Catholics don't believe in Marriage in Heaven. But Emanuel Swedenborg taught it, and Joseph ripped his teaching.

I never was taught that growing up Catholic.

So it seems like you want us to help you reconcile your disbelief in certain parts of Mormonism and your absolute faith in other parts. So yeah, no one here is going to do that.

Maybe you'd just like to give us the whole "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" preach.

I was a smorgasmormon, a fencesitter, a cafeteria Mormon, a doubter, for so many years and I feel for you.

Your post reeks of--surely we all still believe these key parts of Mormonism. No. Most of us surely do not.

I have reported your post. I think you're a Mormon apologist. I'm not a moderator so maybe you can stick around.

So that's why my early posts disappeared. Hall monitors.

Resolutions?

I resolve, kNOw bs, no lying, no rhetoric, no fake anyone or anything.

You either believe the (fraud) 'church' record, history, claims, or you don't. You've got to come down off that fence (it's being moved, rebuilt, repaired, redesigned and removed).

Do what you want (what 'the church' wants): give all your time and money to the outstretched hand of the president of the corporation of the Mormon church if that is how you follow your so-called bliss.

It sounds like you should be - maybe you want to be - a perennial (or eternal?) investigator; that way you don't have to have the trouble of being a member.

Forget changing the name of the church - maybe you should change your own name to pioneer truth-seeker and not a mormon settler.

M@t

"and the truths that have been revealed and taught over the years"

"Truths"? The BOM, that *requires* a literal Tower of Babel and wooden submarines? A multi-tiered heaven and eternal progression, taken from Swedenborg and Thomas Dick, that Hinckley denied on national TV? The one-drop rule, now disavowed? (But since every human on earth has African "blood" = DNA, by then-existing church rules no person has *ever* qualified to hold the "priesthood" or pass it on; not JS or BY or Mark Petersen or anyone they "ordained.")

"there are eschatological doctrines that make SO MUCH SENSE that jive with 'secular' facts and history"

Enlighten us, please. Which parts of mormon eschatology do this?

"Modern revelation introduced the idea of men becoming gods."

Nonsense. That contradicts the church's self-image as a restorer of "plain and precious truths." You can't have it both ways. Even the church admits that becoming gods is not an original doctrine.

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 1, under the heading "Deification, Early Christian":

"From the second to eighth centuries, the standard Christian term for salvation was 'theopoiesis' or 'theosis', literally, 'being made God,' or deification. Such language survived sporadically in the mystical tradition of the West and is still used in Eastern Orthodoxy. LDS doctrines on eternal progression and exaltation to godhood reflect a similar view of salvation."

I don't know what spiritual experiences you had in the temple. Probably too sacred to share with us, but most likely nothing more than a peaceful feeling. You shouldn't have to pay 10% for that.

That's like saying one could embrace cats and not felines.

Most on this message board are completely out of mormonism, with no desire to return. Some are outright hostile towards Mormonism. I like this board; it suits me. But it might not be the place with the answers you are looking for. I have not used the websites/podcasts A Thoughtful Faith or Mormon Matters, but I've heard some people that want to continue with mormonism have found a good fit there. Another option may be Community of Christ (formerly called FLDS). They utilize the BofM, have continuing revelation so the language is comforting and familiar to some. Good luck on your journey.

OP stated: I've also had spiritual experiences as a result of employing methods taught in Mormonism that are meaningful, and accretive in my life. Prayer, temple worship, existential insights - to name a few.
_______________________________________________________________

I have had spiritual experiences with prayer, meditation, dreams, being outside, being inside, etc. etc.

Just because you have had 'sp experiences' with prayer, or wherever, does not mean Mormonism is true.

I have had many experiences when in Mormonism. When I finally 'woke up' I realized 'none, 0' were related to Mormonism.

I eventually, prayed with 'real intent' because I was not going to 'support' any church until I received an answer. My request was show me 'evidence/support' for the LDS church either being true or false.

I got the answer the next day in a 'miraculous way'. I have subsequently received answers about the LDS religion and 'all' others. They are 'man made'. Join for 'fellowship' if you want but be aware their 'doctrine' is not 100% accurate. Many ---- not even close!!!!!

Does that mean I don't believe in God, after life, etc.? Definitely not just the God and after life I believe in is not associated with any religion because 'He' does not need to be worshiped or really widely known by other than truth seekers. There is no such thing as 'sin' ---- there is such a thing as doing things that have consequences here.

If you have had 'spiritual experiences' DON'T look to 'others', look to yourself to get answers and expect them!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2018 06:57PM by spiritist.

It sounds like somebody has their hopes and fears mixed up - their facts and faith and feelings crossed - and got the LDSc and the truth backwards.

I think LDS Inc. and Mormonism is flip sides of the same coin. Or if you pick up one end of a stick, you also pick up the other end. You can't have one without the other. LDS Inc. is the corporate ship that carries Mormonism across the globe. Mormonism is the product and services that keep LDS, Inc. in business. The model is really a family real estate empire masquerading as a church to seduce people to join. Innocent people who are searching for answers to life, etc. can get hooked easily because the cult has an answer for everything.