Folkies,

Some here might recall That my son left the church about a year ago. He and his wife and young kids are no longer active. Today he called, wanting to talk about his life now. We were interrupted, and agreed to talk later.

He is concerned because his life seems to have less meeting, less value… than it had before he left. I would like to give him some good advice about what to read, who to listen to, etc.

I have my own ideas, but I would like to ask for yours.

Thanks in advance.

I know you're an atheist, Ken, but I'll spout this advice again: Just because one church was counterfeit and toxic doesn't mean they all are. Mail him a nice non-KJV study Bible and suggest that he look for a good family community church with a strong children's program, one that has good fellowship activities as well as religious. Most churches have websites to start the search. Be sure to check the calendar.

I hold that there is a loving God, not the fake LDS one which has all sorts of requirements and obligations. Understanding--or at least, considering--this might be the intermediate point between a contrived spirituality and the nihilistic void of atheism.

tell us about the "nihilistic void of atheism".

You are nothing more than a random coincidence in the cosmos--the result of some cosmic monkeys writing code which they don't understand, but release into space anyway. When you die, your code is dissolved along with the random collection of molecules and DNA. That's all you are, all you ever were, all you ever will be.

End of Dave.

Have a nice day!

caffiend Wrote:
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> You are nothing more than a random coincidence in
> the cosmos--the result of some cosmic monkeys
> writing code which they don't understand, but
> release into space anyway. When you die, your code
> is dissolved along with the random collection of
> molecules and DNA. That's all you are, all you
> ever were, all you ever will be.

Come on, caffiend, that straw-man caricature is beneath you.
You also know damn well that atheism is not nihilism, nor does it "say" any of those things. The above is dishonest pap, doing nothing but enabling you to rudely dismiss -- on a non-factual basis -- billions of people from your consideration because they don't share your belief in a "loving god" for which there is no evidence of any kind.

It would do you well, my friend (and perhaps papaken's son as well) to read this:

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/sean-breen/purpose-atheist-s-perspective

As for papaken...the "meaning" he was used to was a pale shadow of actual "meaning." It was a cheap imitation imposed on him by a cult...but it was all he knew. Here, we'll give you a "calling" -- it'll keep you busy, and give you "meaning." Here, we'll have you learn a bunch of ripped-off secret handshakes, it'll give you a shared secret with us and will give you "meaning." Meanwhile, continue to give us 10% of your income (at least) for the privilege of having us provide you "meaning."

So it was cheap and fake and a ruse -- but he didn't have to work for it. It was thrust on him.

Outside of the cult (and other cults), you have to provide your own meaning. And that takes effort, thought, action. People used to having "meaning" imposed on them sometimes don't get that. Or even want it. They can feel like they long for the days when others told them what their "meaning" was, instead of being left on their own to figure it out.

The upside? Once you find and do things that are really, honestly meaningful to you, that kind of "meaning" is far more emotionally satisfying than the cheap imitation mormons foist on you.

So how do you find your own meaning?

Here's something to read towards that end:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201402/atheism-meaning-and-the-absurdity-it-all

It mentions this book, which your son might consider:

https://www.theatheistbook.com/

IMHO, the simplest and most effective way to find what life means to you is to get out and live it -- and help others do the same. As others have mentioned, doing volunteer work is a great way to get started. Whatever he does, he needs time to figure out what HE wants and what HE is -- not what the cult told him he was, or what you do, or what I do. To be able to do that is liberating and wonderful -- to contemplate it after being in a cult can be scary, though, and maybe that's where he's at right now.

Best.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are nothing more than a random coincidence in
> the cosmos--the result of some cosmic monkeys
> writing code which they don't understand, but
> release into space anyway. When you die, your code
> is dissolved along with the random collection of
> molecules and DNA. That's all you are, all you
> ever were, all you ever will be.

This statement reminds me of the following quotation by Bertrand Russell in his essay, "A Free Man's Worship:"

"That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins--all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built."

> You are nothing more than a random coincidence in the cosmos--the result of some cosmic monkeys writing code which they don't understand, but release into space anyway. When you die, your code is dissolved along with the random collection of molecules and DNA. That's all you are, all you ever were, all you ever will be. <

Wait a minute. I'm atheist and I don't believe anything like you described. I envision, and hope on some level, that the "energy" that makes up our consciousness continues on, and that those energies can interact with others and affect the plain in which they dwell, and perhaps affect other plains where they don't dwell. I hope reincarnation is real, as long as the "energy" is willing to take up the existence, etc.......but I don't believe those things are factual, because I have no evidence, just my own personal hope. So just like that, I have no evidence to support a god being, loving or not. And based on the god descriptions available yo me, I kinda hope there isn't one.

Jonny the Smoke Wrote:
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I hope
> reincarnation is real, ...

Jonny, here is a link to an article about evidence suggestive of reincarnation:

https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/articles/past-life-memories-research-overview

I like the energy continuing on idea as well. It makes the most sense to me for some reason. My friend always said we are beings of light and energy with possibilities that are endless. And it sucks @ss to be slowed down by these wretched bodies. He was always smarter than me when it came to these type of subjects.

I too have struggled with the no meaning thing though. But it is no excuse to return to a false cult. You have to tread your own path and create your own meaning. You can't just take orders from a bunch of old guys in suits in a cult the rest of your life and call that meaning. Your son will struggle with the whole no meaning thing for at least a year in my opinion. I still struggle but i know i wasn't born to do secret handshakes and do the hokey pokey, and that is a good starting place

Golf clubs, for the whole family...

I like entertaining the notion that life has no meaning. This makes spending Sunday watching golf, three pro football games and televised poker, wearing nothing but a robe, palatable.

Learning to ‘let go’ of purpose takes time and real effort, and is not for the faint of heart.

And behind it all stands Homer Simpson, asking the eternal question, “Why try?”

Or you can suggest that train for and run a marathon.

My question is: what was your son [specifically] receiving from Mormonism that he now feels is lacking in his life?

"Less meaning [I think this is what you meant ;) ]," and "less value" don't actually identify any of the "missing" parts.

Does he mean (my first guesses):

1) A sense of shared community...or shared cultural identification?

2) A sense of "making the world a better place"?

3) A feeling that HE is a better person...and that his wife and each of his kids are, by their Mormon actions or the influence of Mormonism, better people than he can now imagine happening post-Mormonism?

4) A sense of "connectedness" to the "something good which is larger than [myself]" that most Americans call God?

5) A feeling that he is doing the "right" thing (or a fear that, without Mormonism, he would do, or would be strongly tempted to do, the wrong thing?) (This applies, too, to his thoughts and feelings about his wife and children, and what he thought or assumed THEY were getting, or what he assumed they were receiving, by living a Mormon life.)

The feelings he is communicating to you are valid and real...but he can't heal those feelings or grow beyond them if he doesn't know what those feelings actually "translate into" for HIM.

Once he identifies exactly what he is REALLY missing, then it is a fairly easy process to figure out how to obtain, from other sources, whatever will lead to those needs being met.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2018 02:05AM by Tevai.

Excellent, thought-provoking questions...for me, at least.

I hope the Mormons didn't get him in the habit of putting his family on the back burner. What is important--what gives life meaning--if not a wife and children?

Getting un-brainwashed takes concentrated effort. There is good advice here. Mormonism was not a "great and meaningful cause." It was a useless, made-up cult of hate and greed. Any charity, even saving trees or helping animals, has more use than Mormonism. (Unless you believe in malls and real estate, and making a few men at the top very rich.)

Your son needs to concentrate on all he DOES have in life, and not on what he thinks he "lost."

For me, leaving Mormonism didn't create a void in my life; it opened the door onto a world of possibilities!

Perhaps your son is depressed. Maybe his is unhappy in his job.
You are a good parent to LISTEN to him.

I think we have all stood in your son's place from time to time. I felt kinda of lost and unsure of what life was about and it took me about 3 years, after leaving the cult, to feel somewhat confident and eager about what was to come. Slowly I was able to let go of ideas/thoughts that were founded on false premises and really let go.

It takes time. Some seem to be able to do it faster than others. Your son is a astute and wise person. He too is looking at life from all sides now and will find his way along with his family. I like your son. He's a lot like his dad. ;)

I don't know that I've ever really cared whether my life has meaning, it's just enough that I am.

That's not to say that I don't care the welfare of those I care for and try to make their lives better where I can.

Each day is a chance to start afresh and an opportunity to learn from yesterday's mistakes. I don't know that I can do any better than that, or that I ought to feel my life lacks meaning if I should fall short...so long as I keep trying to improve.

Maybe he needs to feel he did some good in his life (as he mistakenly believed checking up on Inactives or baptizing dead people was doing)?

Spend a 4-hour shift at the local food pantry delivering, sorting, repacking donations. Find a cause his kids can assist with, too.

Walk in the woods, ski on a mountain, explore a cave in a park, go to the pool together, play Yatzee or croquet, drive 3 hours to some small town then choose the likeliest looking cafe to sample pie...all together as a family.

He'll soon forget what he thinks he is missing!

Finding alternate activities and opening one's eyes to the beauty of family, even our planet and universe, agreed, but mourning the loss of a myth which defined and guided his life is different than distracting oneself from that sorrow. Being his father, you will feel his pain.

I remember the flashes of jubilation in discovering freedom, but I also had to face the void. My journey involved accepting the long continuum of gods in human myths, and the current, fashionable god went on that heap.

There is sorrow in losing one's god, for so long, a very real being to us. We mourn the loss of human celebrity icons we have never met, as if a part of an era has died with that person. When our god dies, a part of us goes with him, and there is a valid emptiness. I lost answers, "knowing," direction, goals.

The questions of what his life might have been without the cult still lay yawning before him, and it's possible to process much of this grief, clear it from his path.

I have a feeling I'm not saying any of this very well, and I tend to ramble when that happens. Grieving something that never existed seems silly to me now, and I think that's part of it. But not allowing myself to grieve the "silliness" also made it a much longer process.

I found meaning in discovering that the best parts of me, the good, kind and generous parts that reach out to stand with and help others, were always my own. The church-cult has all sorts of people, and I don't think they "made" me who I am, but more often, stood in my way. Being human, and especially, being a "good" one, is full of a meaning to which worshipping an icon could never hope to compare.

Thank you all who replied.

I love being able to come here & get support from my exmo friends! Thanks Eric & Admin!

I haven't resumed the conversation w/my son yet, but it's due anytime. Now I have some "ammo" to help.

After we talk, I will return and report.

A significant portion of the blackboard of his life has been erased. That would leave one feeling blank, of course, like "What's next? I feel little lost here. . ." Raw canvas.

What is next is whatever you choose to write on the board or paint on the canvas.

Rome wasn't built in a day and neither is the meaning of one's life. But a new brick of experience here and another of exploration there and some sernedipitous events accumulating over time that were navigated well begin to add up to a life so that years from now, when he looks back, he will say, "Wow. My life counted for something! Didn't see that coming." Part of the meaning of his life now is that he has the strength of his convictions clearly.

In son's situation some would say "you can't see the forest for the trees," but I think the deal is, you can't have a forest unless you plant a lot of trees here, there, and everywhere as you go.

Additionally--I spent years after I left with practically no personality of my own and didn't even realize it. What finally worked was just trying a lot of new things. I read a wide variety of magazines and found my interests were peaked by a lot things in them that I would have never before thought of. I purposely chose books to read that I wouldn't have necessarily picked before. I surprised myself at how varied my interests really were deep down under the Mormon facade I had built for myself. I started to be fascinated by what could be instead of what was. Just an idea.

Open up to possibility/ (ies). Not other's, but his! Life is about growing into who you are, discovering purpose, interests, passions, possibilities, etc,, and living like you have to or want to.

I still believe that Jesus aka God aka deity, has the "whole world in his hands," since I left Mormonism. So therefore I still pray and turn my "I don't know all the answers to the mysteries there is worth knowing," but I trust in God anyway and it's my faith that sustains me during the trials of my life.

Wasn't one to pitch the baby out with the bathwater when I left Mormonism behind.

If anything, my dependence on God became more profound because I realized how lost I was without him both as a Mormon and an agnostic (a stint during my late adolescent years.) God needed to pull the rug out from under my feet (of Mormonism,) in order for me to find the solid ground to stand on. Mormonism is built on a house of cards.

God's foundation is solid footing. If not for my shelf breaking from being raised in the cult, I wouldn't have grown spiritually.

We're each a work in progress is how I see ourelves. We grow at different paces, it's our life experiences gives us breadth and wisdom, without which we would stagnate.

Enjoying the journey of life is important to me. Loving my family. Sharing my life with them and being a part of something greater than myself - which is basically what I consider to be the 'power of love' bestowed on us from someone or something greater than ourselves that keeps us connected to our higher selves, our higher power, and to each other.

Cherish your son. Tell him how dear he is to you, and his happiness is your happiness. Wish him well, and be there as a sounding board. Children still have to find their own way in the world. It's hard to let go as a parent. I raised my children to be spiritual. Whether they see themselves as that way is a different matter. Mainly all I can do now for them is pray for them, love them, and provide guidance when they ask for it. And sometimes even when they don't.

First, PapaKen, it’s awesome that your son, DIL, and grandkids have left and that he’s open to your wisdom! My suggestion would be that you get with him and talk about his feeling of loss. I know, our Board isn’t big on feelings, but this is more about natural stages of grieving—in his case, the death of his formerly fixed stars via the LDS faith.

Then, I’d suggest the two of you select a couple of books that appeal to the both of you that explore timeless ideas of life, fairness, and the human experience.

Viktor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning helped me understand universal needs of love, purpose, and the gift of life. This may, or may not, be a good starting place—that’s up to the two of you.

Lastly, I’d be very explicit with your sincere, specific praise. I think it would be wonderful to hear your feelings about his integrity, the place he (and his family) holds in your heart, and your love and support for him as he moves into the next portion of his life.

Very best wishes to you and your wonderful family! The Boner.

Thanks B.B., for all your ideas.

I’m reading Frankl’s book for the first time & might recommend it to my son.

Lessons from Marlon Brando
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nqcgUDoV_M

I really think everyone, regardless of religion or lack thereof, can go through these phases, where life seems "meaningless," and you feel like something is "missing." This is all very human.

Sometimes I think it's because of routine. You get busy doing the same things -- work, kids, TV, repeat -- and after a while, things feel "off" or shallow somehow.

Breaking the routine can help. Sometimes it's just a distraction, though. So it's good you're going to talk to him and listen to his reasons why he might be feeling this way. There will be clues in the specifics.

Mindfulness can also help. If you're aware of the present moment, not reliving the past or worrying over the future, your mind can find more peace.

I have gone thru these phases before, and for me they don't end with some profound realization that I need to create meaning in my own life (which everyone knows already). They just ebb and flow as I rediscover the joy of living, via the small things that I've glossed over.

Every moment of your life is just a snapshot. Just because you feel this way today doesn't mean you'll still be at this same place tomorrow. Good luck to you and your son!

forgotmyname Wrote:
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> I have gone thru these phases before, and for me
> they don't end with some profound realization that
> I need to create meaning in my own life (which
> everyone knows already). They just ebb and flow as
> I rediscover the joy of living, via the small
> things that I've glossed over.

I think that itself is a "profound realization" :)
And is very well said.

I.m Christian too. Sometimes I go to a church of my choice. I have not officially joined any church and do not plan to. I just believe in God and in the bible and it is that simple. I,m single so I only go with my friend when she is a available

Here's something we did as a family after we all left the church. We looked at videos of world cultures and their religions and decided which, if any, appealed to our own values. Sometimes as a game, we would read about or watch programs about various creation myths and vote on which ones we liked best. Not so much to renounce our beliefs, but to open our minds to other possibilities and to recognize that everyone (including 10 people in any sunday school class) has their own idea of what the afterlife is like.

Finding Meaning? I wonder how this life has more meaning when you're sure it's nothing compared to the glorious next life.


Mormonism in particular is a no-win situation. No matter how rightly you try to live and keep all of your temple covenants, the threat of being found short is always in the back of your mind. The fear of forgetting your signs and tokens at the pearly gates is a very real concern for many people.

So what to say? Nobody really knows what happens because nobody has ever returned and talked about it. Even Jesus is never quoted as saying anything about his time between Crucifixion and Resurrection. Being the only one reported to have taken the trip, it seems odd to have heard no mention from the greatest teacher about it.

If we knew this life was the only life we'll ever have, I think it would be easier to enjoy it and to get greater meaning out of it. Since I know right from wrong, if there is any kind of cosmic universal judgement, it will be fully equitable and not at all unexpected. If not, the way I am remembered will be justified, unjustified, and fully unknown to me.

children and your grandchildren, and how much joy those relationships have brought you and the focus they have been for your life.

Like someone above said, what about wife and kids? My life is my kids. I wouldn't still be here without them. They are a part of me. The reason I sit down here and work everyday is to have money to help them out. My life is ABOUT them. It is also about my siblings and taking care of my disabled brothers. Every day is about doing for these people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2018 03:00PM by cl2.