You got a hardened heart!

How can I forgive people who seem to not care at all if they hurt me?

All I know is that they tell me to forgive but it never works because they do not get it at all time after time.

When I removed myself from their lives they tell me that I out of touch with reality and need to seek help!?

Ok, I hold lots of grudges and done many things wrong but these people do not give they just take.

Is this a question about status?

>>they tell me that I out of touch with reality and need to seek help

Oh, so they are name calling. I would just say, "Forgive what? Oh, and I'm fine, thank you for asking." And then remove yourself from their company whenever they behave poorly. Just say that you have somewhere that you urgently need to be. To the extent that you are able, remove the drama from the situation.

Abusers use all sorts of tactics to maintain control of their victims, and those tactics don't vary much, whatever their goals. Their main goal is to control the target of their abuse.

If you have told them "no contact," and they are trying to tell you that you don't have that right, the laws and courts would tell them otherwise, as would mental health professionals. It doesn't matter if you are blood-related or not. Once you reach the age of eighteen in the USA, the Constitution guarantees freedom of association.

That is reality, and when they attempt to deny you your rights, they are the ones out of touch with reality. They want to pretend that you don't have this right. If they are stalking you, you can document the stalking behavior and get a restraining order.

That documentation is the evidence you would need to prove stalking. In reality, going down to the courthouse to file for protection from whomever is stalking you, and taking that evidence to the courthouse hearing, would be called "seeking help."

Maybe you do need and deserve help. Just not the type of "help" the abusers are talking about.

Taking care of yourself means you're strong enough to possibly care for others. It's foolish to forgive someone who continues to abuse you. The normal human reaction is to fight or run away, not to let it go on.

They are also abusing you; get away from them; seek different "friends"/ family, associates, whatever.

"I'm sorry you were upset/hurt by what I said/did."

They are not actually sorry for their actions - just sorry you're upset. The subtle message is that you are to blame, not them.

Mormons think this NON-apology makes it all better and you are obligated to forgive.

You may or may not forgive someone who has hurt you but you are never obligated to let them back in your life.

That is spot on! The problem is that it makes me scratch my head because all I heard in life until lately is that every action is of importance for our life but at the same time every action seems to be treated as if they were of non-importance.

- Do good deeds!

- Good deeds are of no importance!

- Just make make something of your life!

- Do not live for this world!

Mmmm, Mormons use this tactic a lot - my own mother is one of them. They always tell the victim to "try to see the problem through the abuser's eyes" to make it seem you are in the wrong.
My mother denied all the times we had "family council" about my brother beating the shit out of me. She said she was "helping" when she spoke to me in my room. In reality she was trying to manipulate me. I hope OP can get away from the abusers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2018 03:10PM by lazylizard.

To be completely free from the mormon cult, I had to radically change by beliefs around the issue of forgiveness. When I do something wrong and then decide later that I shouldn't have done it, I decide as an honest person to make amends. I do my honest best to create a fair resolution to whoever was harmed. At that point, Inexpect to be forgiven by both whoever was offended, and by god. Also, to be fair, I am always willing to listen with an open mind, to anyone who claims that I have done something wrong to them.

When someone does something to offend or harm me, I expect them to handle the situation and what they've done, the same way I would. I judge the other person's actions based on my expectations that I would place on myself if the situation were reversed.

So with both sides the equasion being covered to be fair to both myself and others, there was still a need to change my beliefs in a radical way after I left the mormon cult. I don't care whether or not my beliefs are consistant with either the bible or with the book of mormon. I am comfortable with my beliefs, regardless.

If someone offends or harms me, I let them know in an appropriate way what they've done. If they are willing to make amends, I am very generous with forgiveness toward them. If they do not make amends, then I don't see any reason to forgive them. In most cases, it would be dysfunctional to forgive them when they have no desire to be fair or honest with me. So I expect god to forgive my faults, while I still reserve the right to not forgive others for their faults, where appropriate. The point is that I (not god) get to decide when and where to forgive others who have offended or harmed me. If god wants to be unfair to me by not forgiving me after I have done my best to be fair to others, then he is not a fair god. If he wants to give others an expectation that they can harm me or to be unfair to me and that I am required to forgive them as a condition of gaining his forgiveness for my faults, then he is an unfair god. This is especially true if his teachings make me more of a victem as others who are not honest, exploit my vulnerabilities based on my beliefs in his teachings. I am not all knowing. But you don't need to be a genius to know or to find out whether or not someone has mis-treated you, and whether or not they intend to make good after their mis-deeds. I really don't give a rats ass why they did it or what their excuse is. If they do anything to harm their relationship with me and they don't care to make good as much as they can, then I have no interest in forgiving them. I am not talking about petty offenses and honest mistakes here. If a stranger wants to flip me off in traffic, I really don't care.

At some point, you need to start holding god accountable. If his so-called priesthood leaders treat you badly, you hold them accountable, spread word of what they've done to others, and hold them in your own personal contempt. If god is unfair, hold him in contempt. What you'll soon realize is that it's not god that is wrong, it's the fault of the fuck-ups who think they have authority to speak in his name. They are responsible, not god.

Why would a good parent teach their kids things about life that will eventually harm them or make them continually vulnerable to mis-treatment from others? They wouldn't. Eventually, you realize that mormonism and even biblical christians are messed up and not to let their teachings bring harm to you. Until god can give me a good reason why he should hold my forgiveness hostage upon condition that I forgive others for their unresolved wrong doings against me, I'll hold that teaching about leaving it all up to him, in utter contempt. I'll forgive who I will forgive and god can decide whether or not he respects me enough to allow me to stand up for what is right for myself or whether he wants to force me to willingly accept injustice. Neither god (nor those who claim to represent him) has authority to forgive others on my behalf, against my wishes. And yet I still expect god to forgive me as I discover and correct my own wrong-doings. This is both good and is fair to everyone.

Every one has a right to withhold their forgiveness of others in good concience, without believing that god won't forgive you for the things that you repent for, as a result. I refuse to believe in an abusive god. God may be able to send me to the telestial kingdom or to outer darkness if that's what he thinks he needs to do. But he doesn't have the power to make me believe that injustice against me is anything that I should tolerate out of fear of him. I decide who I will forgive, not god.

People who claim to follow christ quite often misuse the concept of being 'all forgiving' to keep control of a situation/congregation/family, as discussed already by previous posters. However, their own bible claims christ said to rebuke the sinner (to offend another is a sin in this case), first to family, then to neighbours on a second occasion of offending, and if the sinner does not change after two rebukes, cut them out your life. The difference here is not the act of forgiving, it is the resolve not to allow that person another opportunity to repeat their offense toward you.

The other concept coming from being 'all forgiving' is that if you are unwilling to forgive others then you are not worthy of forgiveness yourself. This again is misused by strict religious types. The meaning I take, with a bit of a mystical slant, is that without understanding what it is to forgive and how hard it can be to forgive, one does not truly understand the 'gift of forgiveness' to it's fullest. Can one ever truly forgive if one feels unforgiven oneself? Can harmony/bliss ever be achieved if one harbours ill-feeling, no matter how small?

Of course, eastern philosophy would say that happiness comes from an absence of conflict and thus to understand one's self and others', and more especially the motives of another, is to be in a state of mind where it is harder to take offense.

It is just a slight change in attitude when you view motives without your own emotional bias affecting your evaluation. After some time of trying to understand others better and predict their future behaviour, when people do appear to behave just as you expect them to, it can be quite amusing. Alternatively, when people behave in a completely unexpected way one can have quite a pleasant, or nasty, surprise.

You are not alone in feeling that this concept of 'you must be forgiving' is indeed abused by mormons to make you feel 'lesser' than he/she who offended you by whatever means, and/or the person instructing you to be forgiving.

From different angles. As always a timely topic for almost everyone everywhere. How could one exist without someone trying this sometime in their life /someone told me humans are predators they want profit this is normal <opposed to the everyone is in the ward Family concept>...still confused on that.

So many differing cultyral mores placed on differing styles and meanings of forgiveness that no one will approve of you /When you finally figure it out/ possibl y except yourself ..

Thank you for your writing a nd exploring your thoughts on forgiveness

you are very welcome :)

Forgiveness means you "let something go".

It DOES NOT mean that you allow the abuser in your life. It does not mean you continue an abusive relationship.

So these are 2 separate issues.

1.forgiveness/letting go (for your own peace of mind, not theirs)

2.kick them out. Don't let them back in!

Whoever is saying this crap to you is a manipulator and you need to get rid of them asap.

Over the course of my life, three people have caused me a great deal of emotional (and with my mother, sometimes physical harm as a child). The other two came into my life as adults.

Two of my abusers are now dead, and therefore, no longer a concern.

The other remains alive, but we have had no contact for more than 20 years, and it is better this way. I have not forgiven, and I probably won't. But the anger and resentment have faded into indifference. I simply don't care any more.

I would like to outlive the last one, as a kind of cosmic one-upsmanship, but I don't really have any control over that, so it isn't a big concern.

As the cute little song in "Frozen" says, "Let it Go." When you simply don't give a rat's rear any more about them, one way or the other, they have lost their power to hurt you.

If the abuser doesn't care that they harmed you, and have shown NO remorse for it, why should it be on YOU to forgive them? Nuh-uh. It needs to go both ways.

It's not just mormons. My nevermo extended family tries to pull this crap, too. They don't care how you feel at all. They are upset because they have lost control of you and are afraid you won't come around so they can mess with you some more. F*** that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2018 04:54PM by Aquarius123.

Forgive"" my rusty red American ass hole

desertman Wrote:
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> Forgive"" my rusty red American ass hole


That's great!! I might have to steal that from you as there are a couple of people I want to use it on. The rusty red American asshole is up there with "my pink frilly ass." LMAO

Though you didn't use the word, I'd have known you were talking about Mormons, Simeon, even if I hadn't read it on this board.

Mormons are manipulative game players who do terrible things to you and then turn the tables and make it a sin for you not to forgive them as they claim that no matter what you perceive they have done, not forgiving them is the greater sin.

Even being told to let it go ruffles me.

HOW?!

First I tried to deny my brain and force myself to believe Mormon nonsense.

Then I abused myself by feeling guilty for not forgiving abuse even when there was no acknowledgement of the offense and no remorse or promise of better treatment offered.

Now I'm supposed to let it go.

I would like to. I've tried.

I cut my abusive narcissist sister out of my life 4 years ago.

First I tried to apologize for things I'd done wrong and get her to address problems coming from her side. She wouldn't even acknowledge the offenses.

I'm certain that 99% (only birthday cards, occasional Facebook like) no contact is the only safe path, but...

It hurts every day.

I've tried all sorts of mental gymnastics to diffuse the hurt.

I don't believe in God.

Reading along hoping for advice I can use on that final piece. The piece where you don't care anymore.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2018 11:08AM by Dorothy.

Thank you. My brain doesn't just "let things go." It doesn't work that way. An unsolved problem is still a problem. An un-rectified offense is palpably there. My brain just happens to recognize this. The phrase "just let it go" infuriates me because it is an inappropriate shift of blame from the abuser to the abused.

So we bury stuff--at least I do--which is a temporary fix, a stay of execution.

So rather than attempting to let it go, I instead accept the fact that I can do nothing about it right now, but that I *will* do something about it when the time is right. I *will* not take the high road because the high road is always the circular road that leaves you chasing your tail. I find some peace for a while knowing I will clearly set things straight at some point.

If you hurt me intentionally I will not forgive you.

If you hurt me accidentaly I will forgive you.

If you hurt someone I love, run, I'll go after you and

explain to you why I'm angry.

Many seem not to understand that we are supposed to forgive the repentant--even as you would want to be forgiven your repented sins.

And, part of repenting means making restitution for harm done (in so far as one is able). For instance, if you brake someones bicycle, you get it fixed.

But it is not required that we accommodate/forgive those who have no repentance in their heart or actions.

A 'good' member of the church borrowed my husband's three-legged expensive camera support, which they put behind a door, and in so doing, broke it. So, they brought us over a cake to show us they were sorry. What--a cake for a $100.00 piece of camera equipment? (Ha--not that I still hold it against them some 40 yrs later, after they moved to Utah.)

A forgiven viper continues to strike.