School kicks trans athlete off boys basketball team for using the bathroom

https://www.outsports.com/2018/2/8/16989304/junior-white-trans-athlete-football-basketball

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/m/3b144b22-ca80-3749-911e-3d5ef4b3bffa/ss_school-kicks-trans-athlete.html

From what I understand after reading the linked article, the student wants it both ways -- to play on the boy's team but to use the girl's restroom.

Can someone explain to me why people get so upset about where someone chooses to pee? I don't give a rat's eyeball who is in the room with me doing their dooty. Why the ef does this still make the news?

Well you might be fine with it. But think of kids in elementary, middle, or high school. They might not feel comfortable having the opposite gender in the restroom.

Post millenial kids and teens are abandoning rigid gender roles and stereotypes now.

rubi123 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you might be fine with it. But think of kids
> in elementary, middle, or high school. They might
> not feel comfortable having the opposite gender in
> the restroom.

Kids do not have an issue with it at all where I live in Europe. In fact nobody cares at all.

because at home kids don't share bathrooms with their brothers and sisters? I say nope.

These days it seems that it is permissible to call people 'bigoted' (and hateful) with gleeful abandon. Name-calling is name-calling, but it seems that who calls who what name seems to be a matter of majority judgment, sadly.

To this point---calling people bigots who have been raised all their lives to perceive bathroom activities as gender specific and restricted as such is, well, unjustified.

Just because younger people abandon certain mores long held by their elders, does not mean their elders must immediately comply with their new rules. Impatience and name-calling certainly doesn't hasten the change. It only foments resentment by people who are forced to go against their lifelong understanding of 'normal'.

Name-calling is not a right for anyone. Please.

Attitudes are changing.

"Mad Men" style sexual harrasment was just something you had to put up with fifty years ago.

Not today.

Now it's no longer acceptable and possibly criminal.

Every case I've heard of about this kind of thing has more to do with the parents than their kids.

The same thing happened with integration.

They are using the same arguments -- "freedom of choice," "freedom of association," "social preference," "I don't want my kids to go to school with the blacks," "they make me uncomfortable," etc etc etc.

You don't see it as hate or bigotry.

More and more people increasingly do.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2018 07:35PM by anybody.

So, I'm not going to argue with your latest diatribe which is only loosely connected to the original topic. (I do understand the concept of deflecting when it comes to discussion.)

I made statements regarding deeply ingrained beliefs that have been held as common agreement consistently for many generations. It is unrealistic to demand that everyone agree with a new set of rules automatically. It takes time for social evolution to happen.

Frankly, sometimes the old guard holds on until they drop dead. Have patience-all the old people will either adjust or eventually die. Then the new, improved society can carry on. Meanwhile, conduct your own self as you wish everyone in your world should be.

What is disturbing is the apparently accepted concept of brow-beating, name-calling and hate that is spewed toward anyone who does not readily fall in to the new order. The most vitriolic abuse seems to come from those who profess to know what's best for everyone.

Being on the cutting edge of societal change does not automatically license people to be mean and abusive.

How about just a little less attitude?


Just askin' (for a friend).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2018 09:07PM by csuprovograd.

but this "problem" isn't going away.

Attitudes are changing at a rapid pace.


I was the weird nerdy kid at school, I paid dearly for it, and I don't like bullies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2018 09:29PM by anybody.

Let's face it. Girls are different than boys (even, as it would appear, transgender males). And females have other problems to manage in the bathroom than do such males.

Frankly, most women don't care to take care of monthly personal matters with another gender looking on, and need more privacy. That is, women have to do more than just stand at an urinal and let go.

Thus, IMO, women, in general, would not appreciate a guy or transgender male walking into the same bathroom they are using.

As it would appear, this problem can be solved as in camping-out toilet facilities, where their is both gender usage of the same 'out-house'--with locks on the door--so the individual can take care of things in private, whatever their gender (and no stranger can enter to surprise them).

There is such a thing as just being inconsiderate of others--which sounds like what this person was--boorish.

Most people think trans people (and trans women especially) all follow (from the external view of the public) the "Caitlyn Jenner" model -- i.e. a fully developed male person who supposedly all of a sudden starts dressing and living as a woman. That's not really true anyway and unlike the gay situation the trans issue has a medical dimension as well as a social one.

Over the last few years more and more parents are allowing their trans children to transition at home instead of throwing them on the street to fend for themselves. These children will have medical treatment to prevent the development of post-pubertal secondary sex characteristics and depending on the state legal status as their innate gender.

This means that in the near future there will be many more kids and teens in school who are indistinguishable from other children of the same gender who may or may not have had converstion surgery.

Are these kids to be segregated? Are they to be treated normally? There's already been a case in Texas of a trans boy who was forced to compete on the girls wrestling team as his gender wasn't recognised by the state. What about the safety of trans girls who look just like girls forced to used the boys locker room?

From what I've read and seen on televison about this subject the kids usually sort this out by themselves. If you walk, talk, and act like a girl you are usually accepted as such by the other kids and vice-versa.

One thing is certain: things are changing and changing very quickly.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/06/health/teens-gender-nonconforming-study-trnd/index.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2018 09:21AM by anybody.

school bathrooms, like all public bathrooms, have stalls with doors - so who is looking? How much extra privacy is required for the sanitary napkin? Just nope.

Gawd I love me some first world problems...almost like full moon all month...every day another tempest in a teapot...every one is a victim now..each precious little snowflake...sheesh

Everybody is now a bigot.

I was wondering why I can't shower in the women's locker room. Seems the bigots assume I will objectify or attack them or something. Prejudice against me.

There should be no restriction anywhere based on race or gender or religion or size or age or whatever.

Need a construction worker? Hire a 70 year old grandma.

Need a daycare worker? Hire a recently released level 3 sex offender.

Can't discriminate, you know.

Unless you are a minority. NBA and NFL obviously hates white guys.

You can form "Women of Color" clubs, but not a white man club.

See the difference?

Have to be politically correct.

and they are very exclusive...


http://www.businessinsider.com/london-gentlemans-clubs-2011-06

The nba and nfl hates white guys when all but a handful of quaterbacks are white?

It's no diffrent than years ago when irish and polish kids went into athletics -- to get out of poverty.

"Politically correct" is a misused term.

Times change.

It's up to you if you want to change with them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2018 12:24AM by anybody.

I tend to respect what DNA tells me. Just like DNA declaring that Native Americans are not Hebrew.

In my lifetime, I have seen many trends come and go. I don't want to see children suffer from cancer in their young adulthood, because they took all those hormones while growing up. And we don't know if hormone blockers are safe for young bodies.

I Don't Want It At All - Kim Petras
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC9FA8lZRy8

DNA is not the issuue.

It's the brain.

What do you when an individual thinks, acts, and for all intents and purposes has the psyche of one sex and the body of another?

They don't grow out of it.

Do you force children to suppress it - that's how you get women like Caitlyn - which can lead to depression, self harm, alcohol and drug abuse and even suicide or allow them to live as themselves?

https://www.ted.com/talks/norman_spack_how_i_help_transgender_teens_become_who_they_want_to_be

"It's the brain.

What do you when an individual thinks, acts, and for all intents and purposes has the psyche of one sex and the body of another?"

Can you please tell me, without using sexist stereotypes, what it means to think like a woman or man? Or howabout acting like a woman or man? And for sure I want to know what it means to have the psyche of a man or woman. I bet you can't. Because the way men and women think, act and have psyches are not tied to their reproductive organs which are what determines their sex.

Men can wear dresses and have tea parties. Women can drive trucks and fart around friends. Do you really think that any of these activities has anything to do with a person's sex?

Human sexuality is complex and consists of many factors that develop independently of one another in parallel.

It's not about genitalia or DNA.

Not all humans have the same number of chromosomes or all all XX or XY. Sexuality is determined by brain structure.

Why are you the sex that you are?

Do you even really ever think about it?

You simply act in a manner that is natural to you.

Then imagine you want to do what you naturally do and feel the way you naturally feel whilst having the wrong body shape and anatomy.

What will you do?

What happens when your brain turns out to be more like the brain of someone of the opposite biological sex?

What if a girl naturally acts like a boy? And I don't mean a "tomboy" phase. The girl actually perceives herself to be male and not female and not as a girl at all.

This person will never want a female body and no punishment, persuasion or behaviour modification will get her to change her mind.

The divergence between the intense sense of self that exists in opposition to assigned sex at birth is called gender dysphoria.

Allowing someone to live as and have a physical body that corresponds with their innate gender alleviates this condition.

To make matters even more interesting, sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. There are lesbian trans females that have a same sex orientation and gay trans males that have relationships as men with other men.


It's not about politics or religion or left or right. It's a naturally occuring biological phenomenon that according to what the current theory happens to a foetus in utero.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/


I had friends at university who killed themselves because of this -- they died together -- so I know of what I speak.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2018 05:53PM by anybody.

Gender-neutral restrooms / lockers

Gender-neutral sports. No more segregated men's/women's (boy's/girls') sports.

I'd be fine with that. Then whoever is qualified for the team gets picked for the team. And everyone can pee is peace.

The entire world has gone off the deep end. There is NO SUCH THING AS GENDER FLUID and most of life is not about what you "feel". The entire concept that you are whatever gender you feel you are at the moment is ludicrous. If you have certain chromosomes and a penis, you are a male. If you have certain chromosomes and a vagina you are a female. You can have surgery, but that does not change your chromosomes. When is someone finally going to say The Emperor is wearing no clothes? Everyone is scared to be called intolerant, something-phobic, or a hater, when the reality is people who are different have every right to be different, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to subscribe to these delusions. The people who push these crazy agendas are supposedly all about science, yet science has not only been thrown out the window here, it's been run over by a bunch of cars.

If we have "evolved as a society" I think we went too far around the circle. I'll bet the chimps are laughing at us right now.

There have always been people born whose genitalia is ambiguous, or there are both sets of genitalia, or where that person's "brain" sense of gender does not accord with the physical organs which can be plainly seen (which means: that baby's unseen, internal, organs may not reflect that same, apparent, "reality").

Different societies have dealt with this in different ways---for example: the Native American tribes who recognize "Two Spirit" people (and these individuals are just as much as part of the tribe as any other member).

I don't know about the nineteenth century in the United States, but in the twentieth century doctors routinely made a decision at birth as to which was the "real" or "intended" set of genitals and "removed" the other set (which meant, most of the time, that male genitals were removed and the baby was raised as a female). The problem was: they often got it wrong, and during those decades, the consequences were awful for both the growing child AND that growing child's family.

With the chemical (etc.) contamination of modern life (the last 150 years or so) the problem has gotten much worse, because evidently, gender can be physically "changed" or made ambiguous, if the child, while growing in the mother, encounters these chemicals (and perhaps radiation, though I am not sure on this particular point). (Around the globe, this is happening in increasing numbers to aquatic life, such as frogs, fish, etc.)

From the moment of conception on through birth, a given child may be "both" genders, or may develop in such a way that the apparent "outside" gender of physical genitalia may not accord with the gender of that child's brain (especially during and after puberty).

None of this is "new"...references to it exist throughout history...and we are, right "now" in our culture, attempting to deal with these situations in ways which are far more nuanced, accepting, and humane.

Yes. Intersex conditions affect .5% of the population. That makes it as common as having red hair. Like anything else, this makes more sense if you actually have a conversation with someone who is intersex or trans. I know a trans male who is 6 feet tall, broad shoulders, now bald and bearded - you would never for a second know he was born female. Every day of his life before he transitioned, if he used a public women's room he was rudely confronted about it, because even before testosterone treatment he looked like a man. So now with him looking as he does, our poster above thinks he should use the women's room? He's a man. This is really not any different for trans people who don't pass easily. Why do we still have to have discussions about treating everyone with respect and dignity? This isn't hard. That everyone as you'd like to be treated.

What you are really saying here without saying it directly is that you don't want to live in a world that does not have a gender binary. What the real issue here is secondary sex characteristics. For example, there are many famous models, actresses, female athletes, etc who are intersex and actually genetically male. Externally they appear normally female and have normal external genitalia but do not have a uterus (I won't mention any names but a top model from the Netherlands has recently acknowledged this and a famous horror movie actress and a far right female author and commentator are also rumoured to have the condition). Many didn't even know until they were teens and did not menstruate.

You perceive women like this to be female because that's what they look like and that's what you have been told.

What you are really afraid of is not being able to tell a person's biological sex just by looking at them -- especially if they are young, female, and attractive.

When you say emphatically, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GENDER FLUID!, you really don't know if that's true or not. You just feel strongly that it's true. But as you pointed out, life is not about what YOU feel. More specifically, other peoples' lives are not about what YOU feel.

Frankly, if you're not trans, why should you care if someone else is. When you're locked in your stall in a public john and you hear someone walk in, are you peeking under the door to see if they may be trans? I mean, for all you know, they could be. I've never seen a woman in a woman's bathroom demand someone dressed as a woman prove they're genetically female. In real life, no one gives a damn. The object is to get out of the public bathroom as soon as possible--not to police the place.

Getting upset about something so hypothetical is a sure sign that loss of social dominance is the true, underlying fear.