I live in Mesa Az. My first name is Frank. I've been struggling with...my testimony for several years.

I read everything as well as the CES letter about 1 year ago and spent a few months reviewing all the links, the rebuttals, and a number of church sources and am certain that the church is just a church.

No golden plates, no Peter, James and John, no authority exists.

The feigned authority is for the purpose of maintaining control.

This is true because all of the evidence says it is and there is no escaping it. The church has painted itself into a very tight corner.

I spent part of the last year playing hallway mormon and haven't withdrawn my name at the request of my wife.

I was recently confronted by my neighbor who was my Bishop previously and is now the stake president.

He invited me to lunch instead of to his office.

I obliged and we spoke for about an hour while eating and then spoke again a few days later.

To make the story short, he "knows" despite all of the clear evidence that the authority is a fiction, that there is only one reason men leave the church...only one.

Porn.

He claims that porn is so addictive that men are willing to give up family and God over it.

It all starts with porn and all other excuses are created to cover the porn use.

Why do I care and why do I share?

Because I feel like this is the Church's formal position. This is a position that is formulated at the top and subtly inserted into the teaching mechanisms of the church.

If is purposeful, pre-calcuated, defamation of all men who show any sign of a weak testimony.

It's a way to protect itself from further loss of priesthood males but it is also a way of branding to protect others from learning more about church history from family and friends.

It's much easier to think..he must be a porn viewer then to think, he's a smart fella, maybe I should ask him why he no longer believes.

I've reached a point without elaborating about my own experiences, that I feel like anyone who plays along and is "kind" with mormons - halfway in and halfway out, while knowing it's a fiction - are doing themselves, their children, and the other men who know the truth, a very big disservice.

I've done it. I have meekly allowed others to assume things about me while I attended with my wife and kids, wore off colored shirts, refused the sacrament, smiled and waved.

It is absolutely a mistake to do this.

It is a mistake to do anything but unequivocally state the reasons why the church is a fiction whenever confronted and to ensure your children understand.

You are branded anyway.

Your wife, if she is a true believer, already thinks you are hiding something. Convincing her to allow you to be a hallway mormon to keep the peace, is just her deciding to buy some time while determing what to do about you.

You can try to convince yourself otherwise but she is plugged in. You were plugged in. When your'e plugged in, reason has a very difficult time entering your system. She's fighting that, and other things she needs to maintain in her life that may be more important to her than you in the end.

It's easier for her to just accept the information fed down the pipeline by the "leaders" who are kinder and "smarter" than you. If she doesn't, she risks her social structure and in her mind her Children's futures, both in this life and in eternity

The biggest negative about allowing this to continue is that the very children, your children, that she believes she's protecting, are being subtly shown that something isn't right about their own Dad.

They sense even at a young age that something isn't right with you. They feel the need to defend you, and they question their own worth as a result.

I've seen it in my own life and in the lives of others who've chosen to be a hallway mormon but not baptize or wear white shirts or take the sacrament.

It is time for mormons to grow up and face the obvious truth. I think that it's coming for many.

But it is and has to be time for hallway mormon men to grow up to including myself. To stand up and tell the truth and stop allowing the church to define their reputation and good name in order to protect itself.

frank in az Wrote:
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>
> It is a mistake to do anything but unequivocally
> state the reasons why the church is a fiction
> whenever confronted and to ensure your children
> understand.
>

I agree with everything you just said, but particularly this



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2018 02:18PM by Darren Steers.

Everything is about porn these days. That is why so many girls aren't married yet in their 30s. It is much worse than I when I was young. But then my ex is gay, as everyone knows. I had to chuckle at that. My job to save him.

You are right about what you've said, but this I can say. My dad was not very active. He was so-so. He drank coffee and alcohol. I worried as a child that we wouldn't be in heaven together because of this because this is what I heard at church. My grandparents and aunts and uncles drank coffee and alcohol. Some smoked. It concerned me. My deaf grandmother didn't attend church as she couldn't hear it anyway. I was going to save them all. It was my job.

As I got older, I realized that these people were some of the best people I knew including my dad. My dad lived an ethical life. He was honest and didn't put on a facade for anyone. He cussed like you wouldn't believe. He was the best man I've ever known or ever will. He wasn't perfect, but he was better than any church leader I ever met.

I agree with you on what you should do, although your kids will get it someday no matter what. The church doesn't always win. My parents used to argue about my dad not being very active mormon, but in the end, it was my mother who told him that I could be spiritual without being any religion.

I do also understand that women need someone there for them. It all depends on what you can handle. Women who are sitting alone are pitied. I knew that so well that I went inactive 9for other reasons, too) when I knew their dad would be leaving us. I never wanted them to be treated the way we were as kids.

That says something there, though, that your kids will be treated different by church members and they will recognize that they are being treated different. Three of my siblings went inactive before they were in their 20s. Only one of my parent's grandchildren is a mormon--my daughter of all people.

I'll bet your bishop/ neighbor also knows that weed is more addictive and dangerous than heroin, that it turns you into a sex crazed, murderous psychopath, and makes you a fan of "jazz" music.

The horror!

I wonder what reason your SP would give for women who leave the church. Are we addicted to porn too?

I ask because there seems to be a belief among Mormons that women stay in the church until an apostate husband influences her enough so that she leaves also.

Maybe your SP isn't aware, but there are many women like me who discovered the truth about the church on our own and left while our husbands stayed in.

He thinks very few women actually have names withdrawn and those who are inactive are acting with/because of spouse or are lazy. (His word)

This is one of the best written and most important posts I have ever read here, frank.

And the PORN thing. OMG. My family has latched onto to that. Porn has become the greatest Mormon scapegoat of all time. Porn has become the crutch that lets Mormons avoid facing the truth.

My niece's marriage ended and my family talks non-stop about her ex-husbands porn addiction and blames everything on it. My mother keeps saying that people who watch porn become child molesters almost always and he should never be alone with his children again. They have gone to court to stop him and are winning because, Utah. I tried to argue with her but of course got nowhere because the Bishop said that.

I don't know the whole truth about poor guy's history, but I do know that there is something very wrong about all this porn bull they are hanging onto like a junkyard dog with a bone.

It seems like this Porn thing is the last straw Mormon's have to grasp at as the Information Age dismantles their church.

My wife once asked whether my refusal to convert was because I had a porn addiction.

I asked what made her think that I was addicted to porn, and she said she wondered because her ex was inactive and HE was addicted to porn. And the reason that she knew her ex had a porn addiction was because her bishop had told her that that was why men went inactive and eventually apostate.

Is make Mormons who are teetering faith wise understand that this is corporate. It is absolutely discussed at the highest levels in a way that a decision is made to use it to the corporation's advantage.

It is purposefully used to innoculate at the expense of many good names and many families and even lives.

There is a reason why bishops ask sexual questions of young men and young male priests are bombarded with it.

It isn't to save souls. Jesus already died for the sin didn't he.

It's to create the worst possible reason for doubt.

It is what every single plugged in member believes deep down. It has been injected into the system they are plugged into and injected with bad intentions.

While men are given the useless priesthood, women are running the church, and derive much power from it, which is why overall, they participate more.

Their power derived from having monopoly control over their husband’s sexuality. Porn threatens that, which is why they’ll report his problem to bishop and expect disciplinary action.

So to keep women happy, so-called leaders turn everything into a shame game over porn. Men are easily shamed. You said men need to “grow up”. Hear that a lot. Or “grow a pair, be a man”.

Ever hear a woman being told to grow a pair?

^^^^This. The women are in charge. I know that's an afront to many a Mormon and exMo, but it is the truth. Whatever power they willing give up ('oh, I'm so tired with all these kids but I'll just keep going'), they gain with massive control over husbands and by proxy, all men in the church. ***and the CHILDREN*** Let us not forget the Mormon mothers who rule the roost and smile sweetly all the while.

OP, keep us posted as your threads and those by bentaylor are dovetailing nicely. Not to minimize your concerns. Just saying that there are many parallels and I am curious to track with you both in this journey.

It could be that each person's journey is completely within the context of the unique factors, there is not much to apply to other Mormons attempting to evacuate.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2018 04:16PM by carameldreams.

There's some truth to this. My mother never had to work. She just had babies and ignored the older children. She had an easy life with Mormonism. She didn't accept callings, because she was pregnant or ill. She dropped the kids off at primary and drove away. She hid out in her bedroom and grudgingly made lousy meals. Her house cleaning was assigned to us. We did all the dishes, set the table, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2018 08:14PM by donbagley.

Nightgown every day until noon. Talked on phone most of day. Has done very little in life other than Lord Mormonism over her kids.

I think that what you claim is being done has created a situation where doubters in the position you describe, will have to tell family that until they are willing to admit church may not be true and listen to actual reasons, no real relationship other than as an aquaintence can exist. Would someone who claims they really love you assume the worst without really listening to your side of the story and investigating it?

This describes my relationship with my parents perfectly.

life, including my family.

They don't give a rat's ass. It will just make you lonely.

They won't ever ask why you don't believe - they don't care.

All of their relationships are superficial by definition.

So telling them that unless they pay attention to why you don't believe means your just acquaintances is like - no duh, I already knew that (for them).

TBM's are all about being seen as spiritual and successful, it's not about creating deep relationships with other humans.

So you have to just accept the superficiality or find an entirely new set of people to socialize with.

Not being completely out is absolutely miserable i can attest. It was hell playing the nice guy just to try to get some of my tithing back. I should have resigned way sooner than i did.

Applause!!!! To the OP. Excellent and most poignient post!!

You are SPOT on, as are all the comments. I’ll add my own observation that the MORG has also hijacked the terminology of what defines an addiction AND what defines porn. I must give them credit tho...VERY cleverly played. It’s also why I hate the cult with a passion. Thankfully BOTH my kids are out and will never go back, much to their TBM mothers chagrin.

gettinreal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Applause!!!! To the OP. Excellent and most
> poignient post!!


I completely agree. This is an exceptionally poignant post, OP. It should be archived here, imho.

I know so many people who are in this exact position. AND, even if the guy says, 'these are the reasons I'm leaving church', they will STILL put the porn label on him.

It's impossible.

I agree with you that the church defames and slanders people who leave, and that it must stop. The traditional points of slander were that the exmo was lazy, offended, or wanted to sin. Porn is simply the newest point of defamation and slander.

They would not like it if the situation were reversed.

The current porn crusade is the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. They don’t get how sexual repression fuels porn use. The statistics don’t lie. But knowledge was never their friend.

I agree that it’s the last trick in their bag. The leaders have the benefit of unquestioning obedience, so they can throw anything at the wall and it will stick. At this point, they need massive indirection to keep members from jumping ship.

It’s rough having kids in the church. You can research how to teach them critical thinking skills, then use the church as a living laboratory.

I’d add that I find it sickening that they are abusing their power this way. Throwing innocent people under the bus and making them suffer. That’s the definition of evil, causing unnecessary suffering.

By any objective measure, the church is not a benevolent organization and never was. Teach objectivity, not self deception.

I would have just laughed and laughed.

When someone says something truly ridiculous , the appropriate thing to do is to laugh.

I think your conclusion is correct, and it makes me understandingly angry. While the implications of what you described may be deep and complicated, I would just like to kill-the-messenger. Unraveling this strategy may yield precious insight into how to prove to TBMs the falseness of the TSCC.. however I would prefer to rant.

I bet your neighbor also eats his dandruff, and enjoys hearing about young teens intimate moments.
Tell him that from your experience TSCC members are spineless sheep that are unable to think for themselves. Also, please tell him that he is a piece-of-shit for forcing his children to attend church every week.
At least you know for sure the quality of people leading the local church. Did he smile as he tried to mind-fk you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 12:28AM by chipace.

I hope the next time you see him you wave you hand like you are jerking-off. Don't let him forget how you didn't fall for his BS story about porn, and that you know for sure that he is a first class douchebag.

Perfect example of the idiotic.

WHEN YOU HAVE FAITH, FACTS DON'T MATTER

Nt

That grown men ad women know the Mormon church is true. I think none of them really do. It's all just a big exercise in one-upmanship

The church was made for sheeple, the kinds who make up their minds and never budge. If you follow where the facts lead you, of course you will leave the church. There’s nowhere else to go.

If the church has a divine mission, it’s as a foil. It’s some terrible thing to overcome, like a disease you fight off to make you stronger. It’s a parasite that’s greedy enough and stupid enough to kill the host. Don’t let it. It will all be fine. The parasite will wither away, or something will come along and kill the motherfucker.

I recommend you lurk awhile. This board features things you’ve never seen in the church. The level of compassion is awe inspiring. And a level of frankness that hurts sometimes. And great humor. While it’s true that the church really messed us up and damn near killed us, here we are. The survivors. TSCC has no idea who it fucked with.

To appear more authoritative, church leaders have to maintain a narrative as to why people leave. The point is to make it appear that only reprobates and morons leave. Therefore, those who leave have to be labeled with some sort of reason that supports their narrative. This started not only with Smith, but even in the Bible ("It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh for a sign."). So Mormon leaders have long had this thing about "pride," "sin,"or"offence" being the ONLY reasons for which one quits the church. But now there is conveniently something else to tack on to the sin--porn. I truly believe that they think that if they burden a man with the lable of porn addiction, he might be too ashamed to leave. Always remember that shame and guilt are the fuels and lubricants that drive the engine of Mormonism.

Thank you, Frank in AZ, for your wonderful post! You write the truth. I appreciate getting a man's point of view on this. What you are going through is awful, and I wish you the best if coping with what I personally believe is an evil cult.

I was a faithful, true-blue Mormon follower, the only organist in our ward, and a certified teacher, so I feel that I did a good job of "magnifying my callings." Yet, I was a divorced single working mother, not temple-married. Because of this, my children were taught in Primary that we were NOT a "forever family," each of my children, and I, would be alone in the hereafter. So, what you wrote, really resonated with me:

"The biggest negative about allowing this to continue is that the very children, your children, that she believes she's protecting, are being subtly shown that something isn't right about their own Dad." (Their own Mom, in my case.)

My children and I had suffered Mormon physical abuse, in each of our childhoods, and had been threatened to never tell about it. Not knowing about the abuse, I forced my children to go to church. In those days, hard-rock music was to blame for kids' rebellions. Seriously--in RS, one teacher played one of songs backwards, and it sounded like "Here's to my sweet Satan" and "It's fun to smoke marajuana". I was so brainwashed, that I confiscated my son's music and tore up the posters off the wall. I honestly thought the music was making my son hate church. I can never apologize enough to my children, for trying to push a cult onto them!

The OP is right about Mormons never asking us flat-out WHY we left their cult. Not ONE Mormon has asked me! Plenty have told me, and for women, it is "wanting to sin," or "not being able to live up to Mormon standards." My answer to the latter is "The Mormon standards were too low."

One Saturday, I FINALLY ASKED my children WHY they didn't like church, and they told me of the past abuse that they had kept secret from me--physical beatings by Priesthood leaders, and an attempted molestation of my little girl. One second later, we were OUT, and we formally resigned together. My children were and are good, loving, honest, peaceful, hard-working kids, and didn't deserve abuse for being late for meetings or refusing to attend an activity, such as pioneer trek. My daughter didn't ask to be molested by a creep she loathed.

The only solution for us, was for me to tell the children the Truth, and then resign from the church, completely.

What happened after we left was not as bad as what we had suffered as Mormons.

Still, we are good people, and the Mormons neighbors don't like seeing our success, and my children have bought homes in the neighborhood, and their children are going to the same schools, and all of us are doing well financially and happiness-wise.

So, they make up stories to malign us! I didn't realize that other ex-Mormons and less-active Mormons have suffered from Mormon gossip, too. Yikes--at least they don't say we're porn addicts!

A picture is worth a thousand words, and what the Mormons see contradicts any stories they make up. Still, this might have done harm to our careers, had we not been with large, non-Utah-owned companies, or self-employed, or with mostly non-Mormon, out-of state clients, etc. Heaven help those employed by the church or other Mormons. I've heard of ex-Mormons losing their jobs, when they quit the cult.

But the OP might lose his wife's love and respect...so very sad.

If the OP stops going to church, his wife will be marginalized as "the wife of an inactive", and often blamed for her husband's inactivity. I have been there. She won't be included in the socializing, which is mostly couples. She, as well as her children, will suffer through the temple-marriage preaching, tithing demands, and other pressures. She will also be the brunt of Mormon gossip and even shunning. She will see for herself how nasty Mormons can be, if your life doesn't match up with their plan of perfection. Maybe then, she will start to study her way out of the cult.

And what I find so, um, chilling, is that he and others do really believe it is about Porn.

Mormonism is so shallow. It really is. There is no really thinking, pondering, questioning.

Shallow.

It is much, much easier for a Mormon to accept that a person left due to a porn addiction than to accept the fact that we realized the Mormon church is complete bullshit.

DNA tests show it, the book of abraham shows js was a complete fraud, the church admits he had affairs aka practiced polygamy. He got caught having sex with Fanny Alger by Emma, and Oliver Cowdry called it a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair." Letter to a CES director. No elephants, horses, steel in America. I mean he copied complete chapters from Isaiah into the BOM: word for word including the King James translation mistakes.

Anti Mormon literature is worse then pornography. The church teaches that so the members don't find out the truth.

"Convincing her to allow you to be a hallway mormon to keep the peace, is just her deciding to buy some time while determing what to do about you."

This sent a shiver up the back of my neck. Its good you recognize this now because that's the reality of your situation.

Not complicated, is it?

Right before you officially resign get up during F&T and give a talk with your 2-3 most convincing points that lead you to the correct conclusion that LDS, Inc is false. Then tell the congregation that is the reason you are leaving and to not believe any lies told about you by the SP.

You could also add that people who accuse others of some illegal or untoward behavior are often, themselves, guilty of that behavior.