The face off is going to happen. He believes in weird sh#t and rituals and i don't and that is the bottom line. I have never been a position where i have made an actual move against him and the family and the beloved religion from hell itself. I am not going to be that scapegoat balled up in the corner for them to point blame on. The majority of my life was ruined because of that d@mn religion and i won't let it ruin the next fifty years if i live that long. So i am expecting the whole disappointment look and silent anger. He pulled this sh#t in my teens when i tried to get excommunicated on purpose. Truth will win the day though and the sun will shine on their creepy rituals. I like that visual for some reason.

IF you care about him I wouldn't make this about religion.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IF you care about him I wouldn't make this about
> religion.

Alright good call. I was kind of thinking the same thing.

Good luck. My parents can't get around religion to get to know me. It sucks. My brother who was the perfect TBM son left the church a couple of years ago. He has attempted to maintain family ties. He told me Sunday he didn't know if he could keep calling mom and dad. They pester him about the church every time.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good luck. My parents can't get around religion to
> get to know me. It sucks. My brother who was the
> perfect TBM son left the church a couple of years
> ago. He has attempted to maintain family ties. He
> told me Sunday he didn't know if he could keep
> calling mom and dad. They pester him about the
> church every time.

Yea i don't think my dad really sees me for who i am either. I think he just sees something he should own forever and should be over as a god or something. Like i am property or something. I don't think i could do another religion battle or any battle with my father for that matter. I have no more religion battle in me it is way too exhausting for me to even think about.

It is exhausting. You think you need to have a connection with the people you can from - literally, and they continue the projection of you being a disappointment into their graves.

I was a disappointment as a teen, then as a newly married in the temple man (they don't like my wife), and then as an avowed disbeliever.

The few times I wasn't a disappointment were nice but just as exhausting in attempting to not disappoint.

In the end, I realized that I was a disappointment and every time I interact with them I'm reminded of that fact.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is exhausting. You think you need to have a
> connection with the people you can from -
> literally, and they continue the projection of you
> being a disappointment into their graves.
>
> I was a disappointment as a teen, then as a newly
> married in the temple man (they don't like my
> wife), and then as an avowed disbeliever.
>
> The few times I wasn't a disappointment were nice
> but just as exhausting in attempting to not
> disappoint.
>
> In the end, I realized that I was a disappointment
> and every time I interact with them I'm reminded
> of that fact.

I could literally be jesus christ and i would still be a disappointment to my parents. I can't win in their fantasyland.

Badassadam1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could literally be jesus christ and i would
> still be a disappointment to my parents. I can't
> win in their fantasyland.

I learned something valuable that you may appreciate.

It is their fantasyland and I'm a caricature of the person I really am in their fantasyland.

It is hard to swallow because society and psychology has this notion that one can have relationships with deluded people on their own terms with boundaries.

We don't even get to the boundaries point. They hang up, leave the room, or listen with their ears covered saying, "LAlalalala."

They ARE your parents but they don't know YOU nor seem to care to. That is the end game. And game over long before they are.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badassadam1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I could literally be jesus christ and i would
> > still be a disappointment to my parents. I
> can't
> > win in their fantasyland.
>
> I learned something valuable that you may
> appreciate.
>
> It is their fantasyland and I'm a caricature of
> the person I really am in their fantasyland.
>
> It is hard to swallow because society and
> psychology has this notion that one can have
> relationships with deluded people on their own
> terms with boundaries.
>
> We don't even get to the boundaries point. They
> hang up, leave the room, or listen with their ears
> covered saying, "LAlalalala."
>
> They ARE your parents but they don't know YOU nor
> seem to care to. That is the end game. And game
> over long before they are.

You are right i am some character an the outskirts of their fantasyland. And i admit i have let that affect me through life because i thought they knew the world and life and especially god better than i did. Hell nobody has gone to the temples more than my father. But i realized something pretty valuable recently and that my father is a two-face fake that will never change. I heard him talking to a neighbor a little bit today about 300 feet away because he talks loud and proud of course. But i realized he puts on a huge show for the world as if the past never even happened. The man truly thinks he has done nothing wrong and is innocent of all things. And his mindset will never change for the rest of his days on this planet. My next door neighbor and i talked about how i am nothing like my father and that she is scared as sh#t of him as well. And she is a tough in your face and strong woman and even she gets intimidated. This helps me realize this sh#t is not made up in my head from my youth. The guy is a terror disguised as a good guy but i have realized that the mormon church attracts these types of men or creates them.

I would say something like "according to the dictates of my own conscience, I cannot believe in the LDS Church any longer. Please respect my decision." And then stop talking about it. Don't go to battle about it anymore. Be firm and decisive and end the discussion. Use the same phrase over and over, if necessary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2018 12:24PM by rubi123.

rubi123 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would say something like "according to the
> dictates of my own conscience, I cannot believe in
> the LDS Church any longer. Please respect my
> decision." And then stop talking about it. Don't
> go to battle about it anymore. Be firm and
> decisive and end the discussion. Use the same
> phrase over and over, if necessary.

Ok this is good, i really don't want to battle at all. The whole religion does kill my conscience that is for sure.

And what would you do after the full bidy screaming stopped?
Dont say anything if you have to live with them. Move out and then sever the chord.
You know people all have issues regardless of religion, politics, siritual experiences, flat earth. Just accet it and move on.

If you live on your own an aggressive father can and should be avoided.
You just can't reason with some people.

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you live on your own an aggressive father can
> and should be avoided.
> You just can't reason with some people.

Yes i live on my own but he lives kind of across the street from me at an angle so i see him outside from a distance sometimes and he can see me from his front window as well so i know we will face off eventually most likely unless i find a new place which i am in the process of doing. I have been avoiding him for like a month now, best month of my life not feeling like i am being totally monitored from a distance. I moved where i am way before he moved in across the street. It was my grandma's house, right after my grandma died he moved right in and i guess convinced my grandma to give the house to him before she passed on. It was total bullsh#t but oh well. But i will try to avoid as long as i can but he could literally walk over to my place if he wanted to even though i have a DO NOT KNOCK sign on my door.

Moving is expensive.

Just build a fence across the front yard and let a couple of dogs run in it.

That way, daddy can't come in whenever he wants.

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moving is expensive.
>
> Just build a fence across the front yard and let a
> couple of dogs run in it.
>
> That way, daddy can't come in whenever he wants.

I actually think moving one more time is a great idea. Get off this d@mn street i am on and get out of the neighborhood completely. And i will save at least 300 dollars a month on rent if i move to a certain area. How much will it cost to get a moving company and a moving van? Over 200 or something?

I went around and around with my TBM dad when I was about 30. I tried the "I've looked into it and the church can't withstand scrutiny....it just doesn't work for me, etc." with him, but somehow he always came back, thinking there was an opening he could get through to get to me.

One day I looked at him and said, "you got to make your choice about the church, why should I not have that same choice that you got?"

He pretty much shut up after that. He wasn't happy about my choice, but he new it was mine, not his to make, and somehow he respected that.

Jonny the Smoke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I went around and around with my TBM dad when I
> was about 30. I tried the "I've looked into it
> and the church can't withstand scrutiny....it just
> doesn't work for me, etc." with him, but somehow
> he always came back, thinking there was an opening
> he could get through to get to me.
>
> One day I looked at him and said, "you got to make
> your choice about the church, why should I not
> have that same choice that you got?"
>
> He pretty much shut up after that. He wasn't
> happy about my choice, but he new it was mine, not
> his to make, and somehow he respected that.

Yes i feel i will have to be very direct with my father eventually as well because i really do feel like i had no choice i was just born into it all. I don't even remember my baptism for christ's sakes.

This is how I did it.

Hi dad.

Let's talk.

I found out some things that led me to believe that JSjr could not be a prophet of God.

I love you and respect you.

For these reasons I really don't want to discuss religion with you, as I know your beliefs.

If you want I will discuss it as long as you remain civil and respectful to me and my Ideas.

Anonish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is how I did it.
>
> Hi dad.
>
> Let's talk.
>
> I found out some things that led me to believe
> that JSjr could not be a prophet of God.
>
> I love you and respect you.
>
> For these reasons I really don't want to discuss
> religion with you, as I know your beliefs.
>
> If you want I will discuss it as long as you
> remain civil and respectful to me and my Ideas.

Wow that may work. I do want it to be civil but i can see it escalating real quick. He's always been aloud to control me when i was younger because i was a minor and lived in his home but the dynamic has definitely changed. I am realizing that i do not have to be a controlled person in life anymore to please him or god or anybody else for that matter. Being controlled mentally is not healthy, especially for me.

"So i am expecting the whole disappointment look and silent anger."

That's passive aggressive, not aggressive.

I recommend "gray rocking." That means you keep your facial expression and body language neutral and you give zero conversationally.

Dad says some BS. "Thanks for your concern Dad but this decision has been made."

Rinse, repeat.

Do not Justify Defend Argue or Explain. Remember "JADE."

I don't discuss anything religion-related with my mormon parents. Ever. We have plenty of other things to talk about. Your religion, or lack thereof as the case may be, is nobody's business but your own. Pretend it's your sex life. Would you want to talk about it with your parents or just anybody? No. Treat religion like that. It's super personal -- as personal as a person's sex life.

dogzilla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "So i am expecting the whole disappointment look
> and silent anger."
>
> That's passive aggressive, not aggressive.
>
> I recommend "gray rocking." That means you keep
> your facial expression and body language neutral
> and you give zero conversationally.
>
> Dad says some BS. "Thanks for your concern Dad but
> this decision has been made."
>
> Rinse, repeat.
>
> Do not Justify Defend Argue or Explain. Remember
> "JADE."
>
> I don't discuss anything religion-related with my
> mormon parents. Ever. We have plenty of other
> things to talk about. Your religion, or lack
> thereof as the case may be, is nobody's business
> but your own. Pretend it's your sex life. Would
> you want to talk about it with your parents or
> just anybody? No. Treat religion like that. It's
> super personal -- as personal as a person's sex
> life.

Gotcha, no justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining. That would be super exhausting to go back and forth with my father anyways. I think he realizes how unhealthy religion has been to me over the course of my life so he may FINALLY get it.

Here's what worked with my entirely-TBM mother, stepfather, and brother:

Basically, I told them they were family, and I loved them and wanted them to be a part of my life. But if our interactions were only going to revolve around my lack of belief in the church -- which wasn't going to change -- then there wouldn't be any interactions. I left it up to them: either we talked and visited and dealt with each other as family and not as mormon/non-mormon, or there wouldn't be any talking or visiting.

It took a couple of years, but they came around. I see all of them regularly, and there's almost never a mention of church, or any attempt to get me back in it. That's worked for 30+ years.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's what worked with my entirely-TBM mother,
> stepfather, and brother:
>
> Basically, I told them they were family, and I
> loved them and wanted them to be a part of my
> life. But if our interactions were only going to
> revolve around my lack of belief in the church --
> which wasn't going to change -- then there
> wouldn't be any interactions. I left it up to
> them: either we talked and visited and dealt with
> each other as family and not as mormon/non-mormon,
> or there wouldn't be any talking or visiting.
>
> It took a couple of years, but they came around.
> I see all of them regularly, and there's almost
> never a mention of church, or any attempt to get
> me back in it. That's worked for 30+ years.

Wow that's impressive. This may be the ideal outcome. I think my mother understands and doesn't care. Not sure if she knows i have resigned though but she knows i think it's a cult but it did not seem to bother her. It's almost like she knows deep down what it is but decides to stay in it anyways. Her and my father have been divorced for about 5 years now. Totally different mindsets. She doesn't care as much as my father(the smith history lover). I fear it will turn into a huge battle with my father if i say anything. He looked at me like i was a crazy person when i mentioned he did death oaths. Not going to allow him to make me feel crazy any more.

Use irony.
Tell him you believe in the 1tth AoF more than him.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Use irony.
> Tell him you believe in the 1tth AoF more than
> him.

Had to look that up but that's good. It's crazy that i used to have those AoF memorized as a kid but never knew what the hell they meant. They made us memorize those things when i was younger, now that is irony.

Badassadam1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> koriwhore Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Use irony.
> > Tell him you believe in the 1tth AoF more than
> > him.
>
> Had to look that up but that's good. It's crazy
> that i used to have those AoF memorized as a kid
> but never knew what the hell they meant. They
> made us memorize those things when i was younger,
> now that is irony.

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

If he really believed that, would he attempt to deny your privilege to worship (or not), how, where or what you want, according to the dictates of your own conscience?

Since you don't try to deny his privilege, why wouldn't he just reciprocate? Because he's aggressive? Maybe he needs to answer some serious questions before you can take his aggression seriously, like, how do you, in good conscience, sing the praises of a man who 'married' his follower's wives and teenage daughters, contrary to every law ever written governing marriage, including the one he said he got straight from God, the Law of the Priesthood, which is still considered the word of God by Mormons, not just a suggestion, right?

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badassadam1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > koriwhore Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Use irony.
> > > Tell him you believe in the 1tth AoF more
> than
> > > him.
> >
> > Had to look that up but that's good. It's
> crazy
> > that i used to have those AoF memorized as a
> kid
> > but never knew what the hell they meant. They
> > made us memorize those things when i was
> younger,
> > now that is irony.
>
> "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God
> according to the dictates of our conscience, and
> allow all men the same privilege, let them worship
> how, where, or what they may."
>
> If he really believed that, would he attempt to
> deny your privilege to worship (or not), how,
> where or what you want, according to the dictates
> of your own conscience?
>
> Since you don't try to deny his privilege, why
> wouldn't he just reciprocate? Because he's
> aggressive? Maybe he needs to answer some serious
> questions before you can take his aggression
> seriously, like, how do you, in good conscience,
> sing the praises of a man who 'married' his
> follower's wives and teenage daughters, contrary
> to every law ever written governing marriage,
> including the one he said he got straight from
> God, the Law of the Priesthood, which is still
> considered the word of God by Mormons, not just a
> suggestion, right?

I am not sure the teenage daughter thing will work against my father. I am not totally sure he is against that, as strange as that sounds. He talks about younger people very strangely if you catch my drift. But i am not accussing him of anything but my older sister noticed the same thing so she's cautious with her kids when he's around. I know it sounds bad but they say the fanatical ones usually are not opposed to the underage marriage thing. And my father is the definition of a mormon fanatical in my opinion. I think the guy would have flipped a switch on me if i resigned when i was 18 or 19 like i wanted.

There is a lot of great advice here so I don't have much to add. Adam, your timeline is similar to mine in exiting the church but I haven't formally resigned yet.

My thinking is such: I only have one father on the earth so I had better make the best of things! To try to respond with kindness rather than to react to him incessantly pushing my buttons. The thing that allows me to do this is feeling sorry for him for still being trapped in the cult. It's not worth the argument for me, as long as he and my mother are still under the control of the LDS church.

I value the relationship with my parents so it will be worth the effort on my part to make things work. They're not going to change and I've accepted that. So making peace is my only option.

Good luck to both of us! Hopefully, the explosive arguments are a thing of the past.

It basically comes down to stating that you’re never going to agree on religion, so it’s just going to have to stay off the table as far as a topic goes.

That’s what I’ve had to do with my TBM friends. We just talk about anything but that.

"Dad, I have to make my own decisions and I won't discuss them. Now you'll have to excuse me. I'm going out." Or I have an appointment. Or I'm done talking and will go for my daily constitutional.

I left the church at about age 22 and never had a real face off. My parents died and without a big whoop-dee-doo back and forth justification on my part or major yammering assault from them,

As soon as I was able to support myself and provide my own housing, they had no way to force their will on me and they knew it.

It takes two to face off.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Dad, I have to make my own decisions and I won't
> discuss them. Now you'll have to excuse me. I'm
> going out." Or I have an appointment. Or I'm done
> talking and will go for my daily constitutional.
>
> I left the church at about age 22 and never had a
> real face off. My parents died and without a big
> whoop-dee-doo back and forth justification on my
> part or major yammering assault from them,
>
> As soon as I was able to support myself and
> provide my own housing, they had no way to force
> their will on me and they knew it.
>
> It takes two to face off.

Maybe this can be avoided totally, he just lives across the street and has no boundaries i feel. I put some strong signs on my door as well. I have lived completely on my own without roommates for 3 and a half years now so i do feel more solid now than i have before.

To keep it from escalating it is all in the setup. Remember, mormons are mormons because of how it makes them feel, not about logic.

I asked my dad this series of questions:

Do you believe in personal revelation about your own life?

Do you believe that God cannot lie to your heart?

Do you have faith that any person can find the truth through fasting and prayer?

Once he has answered yes to these things you can explain that after finding out about (whatever led to your crisis of faith) you went to the Lord with all humility in sincere prayer and fasting to receive an answer to the internal turmoil you were experiencing. (I did this in the temple, which added a layer of can't argue with to it). The answer you got, after much fasting and prayer was that the church cannot deliver on its promises, and has become a tool of man to control others. That your faith is very private, and an extension of your relationship with your Father in Heaven as YOU understand him, and as how he has manifested himself unto you.

That now you have created such a close personal bond with your god(actually your subconcious but use his vernacular) that you have a peace and happiness now that you have never experienced before in your life.

I did not have this conversation with my dad until he brought up how different and at peace I seemed to be. It completely disarmed him.

I also had a long conversation about his conversion where he admitted deep emotional stress and desperation was what caused his faith to solidify, then showed the fallacies of a faith based on an emotional event. I don't suggest you do that. It did not do any good in my case. But I do have a great relationship with my father where we respect each others beliefs.

I would say something like, "I have made the choice that the church will not longer be a part of my life. I understand that it is still an important part of your life, and I respect your choice, as I hope you will respect mine. If we can agree to disagree and relate to each other as father and son, apart from religion, I would welcome that. If you cannot do that, I will have to make the choice to avoid contact with you until you are able to do so."

I don't know how to do a face-off. I just moved far away, cut off contact, and waited for my father to die. Now THAT was a lot of wasted years.

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know how to do a face-off. I just moved
> far away, cut off contact, and waited for my
> father to die. Now THAT was a lot of wasted years.

You see this was my first option all along. But if i move i will just get tracked down like some animal and i am getting too old and tired to keep doing this sh#t.

Ask him Socratic questions like,
Why did Mormons exclude blacks from their temples prior to 1978?
He will say, "Priesthood ban!"
#1. What does Priesthood have to do with ones worthiness to enter a temple, when women were never excluded from the temple?
Can't you just admit that was just racist AF?
#2. What about polyandry? How do you answer for the fact that your church has now admitted that the guy whose praises you sing, married 14 of his followers wives?
When every law ever written says that's adultery why are you singing his f'ing praises?
How is that any different than Fundys singing the praises of Warren Jeffs?
And you want to preach you are morally superior to me?
Gimme a fucking break!
And lemme guess, he voted to MAGA, right?
Loves guns?
Awesome.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2018 08:52PM by koriwhore.

If you are afraid of your dad, then you can't use any of the advice above. You won't be able to say any of it.

You are pretty much screwed.

Your only options are to keep hiding from him and keep being angry.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are afraid of your dad, then you can't use
> any of the advice above. You won't be able to
> say any of it.
>
> You are pretty much screwed.
>
> Your only options are to keep hiding from him and
> keep being angry.

Can't keep hiding or keep being angry. Been doing that for way too long.