In another thread on belief
dogblogger Wrote:
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> Gee, koriwhore's argument that you can't see it so
> you just gotta believe proves Testiphony is
> absolutely right.

That's not my argument at all.

But we do all choose what and whom to believe.
I choose to believe those in the know, like the scientists, Paablo Svante, who mapped the human, Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes. I didnt compare them, but I trust their judgement.
I didn't discover the God Particle (Higgs Boson) but I believe those who spent the past 50yrs building the worlds biggest and most expensive scientific instrument when they tell me they found it.
I don't trust guys like the Bagwan Shree Rashneesh (aka, Osho), after what his crazy sex CULT did in Oregon.
I remain highly skeptical of supernatural explanations, although I do believe we can only perceive 3 or 4 out of 11 dimensions.
And whats inside the black hole is super natural, which makes up 96% of the Cosmos scientists call Dark Matter/Energy, for lack of a better term.
Personally I much prefer the term, Tao, to describe that mysterious balance of forces in nature.
But the word, God works just as well for scientists, like the Nobel Prize winner who nick named the Higgs Boson, "The God Particle" when it wasnt even a particle, but an oceanic field that creates all the building blocks of nature.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2018 06:26PM by koriwhore.

The above question can have nuanced answers.

My first two bishops and their very decent and selfless wives were not knowingly lying. I've never stopped respecting them, delusioned fools that they were.

But the blunt answer is usually that when you catch someone lying, whether you "trusted" them or not, you're not going to give much credence again to anything they ever say, unless they provide verifiable proof.

And a testimony simply isn't proof, no matter the sincerity.

And making a religious leap of faith when the mormon church is involved is complete foolishness, once you're given the opportunity to study its history in depth.

Huh ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> Huh ?
I trust String Theorists like Michio Kaku, who has a hell of a lot more beautiful answers for lifes mysteries than anything I ever read in holy writ.
https://youtu.be/fW6JFKgbAF4
Even though he could have it completely backwards, M theory (The Mother of all theories) works better than any other string theory I've heard. But F theory (The Father of all theories) could work, in a perpendicular universe.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2018 06:32PM by koriwhore.

And of course you know these 11 dimensions are real.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> And of course you know these 11 dimensions are
> real.
They are theoretical, hnce the name, M THEORY.
I am not a String Theorist, but of all the string theories I've read Kaku's M theory resonates with me most. Of course we will never KNOW, until we can peek inside of a Black Hole.
Might be awhile.

I "trust" people who've earned trust by demonstrating that they're trustworthy.

And even then (with few exceptions), it's still "trust and verify." Not blind "trust."

I don't trust anyone who says, "Oh, believe me..." and then spouts unverifiable nonsense. :)

Mormons didn't lie to me. They were brainwashed and clueless!!!!

As far as 'experts' listen carefully ----- most give 'theories' not facts.

I am comfortable with trying to 'obtain' information/facts/theories then letting my 'intuition' sort it out.

Pain is my truth. Everything else is just bullsh#t.

I believe that belief is an obstacle to be overcome. Belief just means you "want" something to be true. Belief has no bearing on truth or the power to make that thing true. Belief is essentially a red herring.

I like to weigh known fact, probability and act accordingly. When you are rafting down the river you keep your eyes on the rocks and over hanging trees, the falls and the white water and every muscle in your body works with your brain to maneuver. Believing you are going to get out alive has nothing to do with it. In fact being very afraid that you won't will help you more. Fear keeps your senses sharp. Knowing you must not let eyes or ears miss a single danger will aid you. Belief dulls the senses as it makes us complacent that we know something we don't.

Bravo, D&D!

I agree, Bravo!

Also, Done and Done, what do you make of others' tales how their belief made all the difference when they were in a jam?

Of course, sometimes there were people who believed and still perished, so we don't have their tales. It can seem that in the absence of contradiction, belief is the key to success.

Interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

First, I would not denigrate anyone who feels something outside themselves got them through a tough time because I, personally, don't really know, but . . .

I "believe" that positive attitude or believing in yourself and your own ability to accomplish is a very different animal than believing things outside yourself like in Gods and guardian angels and holy ghosts etc. What we call believing-that-we can-do-something is really mis-labeled and should be called self-confidence--that we have earned because we know we have certain strengths to call on when needed.

In the end these people who credit some belief for coming through a tough time haven't stopped to look at the fact that what got them through was either their own grit and determination, or, serendipity and luck. Why credit something else when you have done your own heavy lifting or things just fell into place on their own?

One Mormon's "miracle" is just another person's great set of circumstances.

I'm sure the handcart people who died trapped in that blizzard believed they would make it. After all the Prophet Brigham told them to come! Just didn't have enough faith? Enough belief?

When things worked out, you believed enough. When things didn't work out, God had another plan for you. I believe that's how it goes. This plan works out well for the living who have an agenda and not so well for the dead.

Anyway, that's what occurred to me with regard to your question. Who knows? I had a concussion when I was a kid and woke up just as they finished slathering my head with olive oil. That miracle still trails me today like toilet paper stuck to the heel of your shoe. Co-incicence? "They" think not. :)

Thank you, D&D. Very clearly expressed and makes sense.

Confidence is built on experience. Just like you said with the, 'positive thinking' regarding a Deity and whatnot.

Yes, those who sadly died while believing cannot speak.

Thank you again.

Exactly, Done & Done.

That's why many of us feel like we were "blind-sided" with the sudden truth that Mormonism is a hoax cult. We feel like the carpet was pulled out from under us. Our world was turned upside-down. Our dimmed, brainwashed minds thought we already knew all of the truth that we needed to know in this life.

I still trusted my TBM father's business advice, because he was a very successful businessman. I trusted my mother's social and fashion and decorating advice, because she was glamorous. I no longer trusted their vision of the hereafter, their belief in JS and all that garbage, and their advice on how to deal with abuse. I did no longer believed that my parents had more power with God than I did. I no longer allowed them to summon their "God" to "Damn me to Eternal Hell", for accidentally spilling a glass of milk, or petty things like that.

He is 11 years younger than me, but no longer my little brother. He is 6 feet 4 inches and I'm 6 feet. We take care of each other now. I'm more like a mother to him as we had a brother in between who was disabled and there was always something going on with the disabled brother, so I took care of my little brother from when he was born.

I trust my son these days and even my ex THESE DAYS now that we are in the right kind of relationship.

Of all the people in my life, though, my little brother is the one who I can trust 100%. He is 49 and I'm 60.

My local leaders in the church did not intentionally lie to me

about the truthfulness of the church because they believed it

as well.

When other people in my life have lied to me I no longer

automatically believe a word they say neither do I

automatically trust anyone and those that I do trust

have earned it. I don't give my trust away, its too precious

to be casual about it.

saucie (nli) Wrote:
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> My local leaders in the church did not
> intentionally lie to me
>
> about the truthfulness of the church because they
> believed it
>
> as well.
>

20yrs into the Google Age (21st C) ignorance us no excuse. Its a choice. My 2 best friends were Mormon.
Buddy growing up LDS.
Other buddy from college.
Both are well aware of all the doctrinal issues I am aware of, they just see it from VERY different perspectives than me.
They both see it as excusable behavior. But they cant answer my questions about the church. Nobody can unless they are honest. No Mormon can honestly answer my questions. So I quit asking the Mormons I know in real life, because they dont wanna hear about it.
In fact I have had Mormons threaten to call security on me in Temple Square for asking simple, reasonable questions about true facts their own church freely admits after 170 years of lying by ommissoon about it. And Mormons expect me to believe they knew all alnog?
Both of my buddies knew about Polyandry long before me. They just didnt care enough to bring it up. That's ancient history to them. They are too busy earning fat stacks of cash to give a shit about what somebody did 189yrs ago.
But they care deeply about a guy who lived 2018yrs ago.
To Mormons, ExMos like me just sound really angry.
I am kinda angry that kids are still being raped by Mormon Penisholders, on a regular basis and those victims are being blamed and their rapists are being excused to go rape again and again because Mormons want to "See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. Which is responsible for enabling more evil than anything.
Excusing the sexual exploitation of young girls as young as 14, by saying, "it was common back then"
Unfortunately, it still is in Southern Utah.
So is polyandry and all kinds of sick and twised rape being normalized by Mormons.
It is another thing to sing the praises of a cuckold bull child rapist.
Thats about as immoral as Fundies singing praise to Warren Jeffs as he rots in prison forever on child rape convictions.
And they want to dictate their sick and twisted morality upon me and my kids, the world so bad they field the worlds biggest army of cult recruiter zealots every day to do so?
Mormons I know, who forget about all of that,
need a wakeup call IMHO.
They need to think about how they enable the subjugation of women, discrimination against blacks, gays. Women, and the sexual abuse that is as rampant in the Mormon Cult as it is in the Catholic Crutch.
Lots of them go bankrupt.
Why doesnt LDS Inc go bankrupt?
They buy victims silence to keep it on the DL.
To the tune of millions.
Nobody paid me.
My integrity isnt up for sale. .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2018 08:50PM by koriwhore.

Oh I see, according to you my answer was wrong because I

trusted those people I went to church with who believed the

same lies that we all were taught. I was wrong as a little

child to trust my parents... and you say "ignorance is no

excuse", as a child? Get real .

saucie (nli) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh I see, according to you my answer was wrong
> because I
>
> trusted those people I went to church with who
> believed the
>
> same lies that we all were taught. I was wrong as
> a little
>
> child to trust my parents... and you say
> "ignorance is no
>
> excuse", as a child? Get real .

No. You were not wrong as a child to believe your parents. We all did. We are all just products of our upbringing. That and self determination. Thankfully we are among the few who were able to break the chains that enslaved us mentally.
I just don't have any sympathy for post Google Mormons who know all about the same things we know about, but choose to ignore it, dismiss it, excuse it, as if there is any excuse.
There isn't..

Who do I trust???.....me, myself and my's ability to search for facts and discover truth being well aware that this truth, when new facts arise, can change.

I trust common sense. Its the core "feeling"
that MOST of the time sorts things out. Its
the ONE thing that the delusional OLD Mormen
folks fear the most. Example: What happened
to the "Golden Plates"? Oh, they were taken
back to Heaven? Ok. Do you really THINK that
makes sense? Does GOD want to keep your TRUE
religion the ONE and ONLY a super secret??