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Posted by: tamboruco ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 05:46PM

This is very, very damning to ChurchCo. Very interesting to hear the call by counsel for the church to change policy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH7erEoNEc8

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 07:58PM

Devastating.

It's remarkable who the different strands are coming together: #metoo, the various sexual abuse scandals, Rob Porter, Sam Young's efforts to protect children. Denson is the church's worst nightmare: an angry, articulate and entirely credible "victim."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 08:27PM

But if I can do so without detracting from such an important topic, I would like to observe that an hour news conference may be a bit long.

Elderolddog could have done it in 15 minutes while standing on one leg and chewing bubble gum.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 09:24PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But if I can do so without detracting from such an
> important topic, I would like to observe that an
> hour news conference may be a bit long.

You are completely correct, Lot's Wife!

I was expecting Gloria or Lisa Allred's style of 'We present you with The Victim'. Arm around crying Victim, speak for Victim, take a few questions.

I still support this entire cause. But The Allred Standard can't be beat. It's best mimicked because it works.

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 08:36PM

No way elderolddog could stand on one leg for 15 minutes. Even without the bubble gum.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 04:19PM

Appreciate your posting this link. I was just beginning to search and this made it so easy.

McKenna Denson's amazing show of courage is commendable. I found the press conference to be thorough and myself was glad that they took the time to answer question after question.

I think it showed strength and that they were not about to be intimidated by the MormonCultBully. Kudos.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 04:20PM


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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 07:58PM

Thanks for posting the link. Listening to it now.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 05, 2018 11:11PM

If anyone decides to skip out on the Q&A after the prepared presentations, you may want to check back in at the hour mark. There are two noteworthy questions/statements in the last two minutes.

The first occurs when someone asks if the Strengthening the Church Members Committee had contacted Denson. She laughs uncomfortably and then confers with her advisor, since she doesn't know how properly to answer. If you watch closely, he asks her if the SCMC had contacted her and she shrugs and tells him, "they've followed me."

The latter event, the last on the recording, is a statement by a man who looks and sounds like he could be from the SCMC. But he isn't. He is Sam Young.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 10:16AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The latter event, the last on the recording, is a
> statement by a man who looks and sounds like he
> could be from the SCMC. But he isn't. He is Sam
> Young.

WHAT???!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 01:14PM

A number of people in the audience were supportive of Denton; some of the questions were statements of encouragement.

Midway through the Q&A, the videographer scanned through the audience and there was an older man in suit and tie watching. He looked just like an LDS apparatchik. I thought the church was either monitoring the conference or trying subtly to intimidate people.

At the end of the tape, however, that man made a comment. He introduced himself as Sam Young, then said to Denton: we believe you and we support you.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 01:35PM

What gives me hope is that the various movements may be converging. Nationally, #MeToo is bringing critical attention to sexual assault. Within Mormondom there have been several scandals that have received national attention, including the West Virginia crimes and coverup as well as Rob Porter's domestic violence and several other cases. People are aware of the LDS church's suppression of truly evil things.

Now come Sam Young and his attempt to end bishops' interviews and Denson's account of a serial abuser who hid behind his mission presidencies and presumptive second anointing. Young and Denton are articulate and strong; neither will be intimidated. And they have now met and spoken together and are on record as endorsing each other's work. They represent a multifaceted challenge to the church at a time when broader society is paying attention.

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Posted by: Jane Cannary ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 05:24PM

Mckenna did say the SCMC had followed her, but you can hear her lawyer say "You don't KNOW that." And they then said no, we had not heard from SCMC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 05:24PM by jane.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 06:45PM

Yes.

She said to him, "they've followed me." He replies, in effect, that she wouldn't know if any followers were SCMC, which is correct. Then he says to the audience the SCMC hadn't "contacted" them.

She thinks she was followed. That could be paranoia, or it could be true. I for one would not be surprised if church personnel had taken an interest in her, just as I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the people in the press conference had been sent by the church.

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Posted by: Jane Cannary ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 06:48PM

Oh yeah, I'm sure there were some ChurchCo people there. I'm sure they wanted to get the deets as soon as possible so they'd know what needed to be done to start the whitewash job to get ahead of this thing.

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Posted by: Topper ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 03:36PM

up

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 04:36PM

It'll be right and proper that soon when religious sexual shenanigans is the answer, the question will be, "What are mormonism and Catholicism, Alex..."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 04:47PM

Exactly.

And for the same reason. Any church that requires its members to surrender their personal moral authority and responsibility to other humans is going to produce these debacles. The narcissists in positions of power think that they are above the law, and the victims either can't believe what happened or blame themselves. Meanwhile the church can't acknowledge that it's priests have sinned grievously without undermining their mythology of inspiration and divine authority.

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Posted by: Justin ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 06:39PM

Because there are more Protestant clergy than Catholic clergy there are actually more people abused by Protestant clergy although the percentage of Protestant clergy engaged in this activity may be lower. Both Protestants and Catholics have been more proactive in background checks and other precautions than LDS. We don't hear about Protestants as much since denominations are smaller and it doesn't go beyond the local news. And if you really want examples of sexual abuse you can look at school teachers (especially coaches).

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2018 07:24PM

Justin, do you have data on the topics you mention? I would love to see any sound studies on the frequency of sexual abuse by Protestant clergy versus Catholic clergy and Mormon clergy.

My assumption is that when you have a formal organization and indoctrination process, like in the RC and LDS traditions, there will be more protection of abusers than in less authoritarian and less structured religions. Conversely, to the extent that Protestant sects emphasize individual moral responsibility more than obedience to the hierarchy, they are somewhat less likely to make victims blame themselves for what others do to them.

Can you point me towards anything that would help me test those assumptions?

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 04:32PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My assumption is that when you have a formal
> organization and indoctrination process, like in
> the RC and LDS traditions, there will be more
> protection of abusers than in less authoritarian
> and less structured religions. Conversely, to the
> extent that Protestant sects emphasize individual
> moral responsibility more than obedience to the
> hierarchy, they are somewhat less likely to make
> victims blame themselves for what others do to
> them.

Not sure about these. It's really just a matter of access. Who is the trusted adult who has access?

Heck, in the Mormonleaks document for abuses through the years, even MISSIONARIES welcomed into homes for dinner abused people. So this isn't an exclusively hierarchical thing.

Heterosexual, married men (who are typically fathers as well) are the most dangerous. Why? Because they have access. They are respected, trusted and given positions such as Boy Scout leader, teacher, Bishop, coach, etc.

In EVERY system, religious or no, when parents turn off their brains because of a title ('Bishop', 'Coach', 'Doctor', whatever), you get predators who are trusted and have access to people.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 06:51PM

CD,

My assertion is simply that when organizations teach people to trust authority rather than their own common sense, the odds of abuse go up.

In your terms, the church teaches members to "turn off their brains" when dealing with religious superiors. That is why missionaries, bishops, and others get more access to kids; it is why parents ignore their common sense and give the leaders the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think you and I disagree.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 08:55PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CD,
>
> My assertion is simply that when organizations
> teach people to trust authority rather than their
> own common sense, the odds of abuse go up.
>
Yes, you are right. And we agree, totally.

Good articles on cover up within Protestant orgs:

https://newrepublic.com/article/142999/silence-lambs-protestants-concealing-catholic-size-sexual-abuse-scandal

"The Silence of the Lambs

Are Protestants concealing a Catholic-size sexual abuse scandal?"

https://religionnews.com/2015/12/07/spotlight-its-not-just-a-catholic-problem/

"Some may be tempted to watch this film with disgust for the Catholic Church and a sigh of relief for Protestant churches. Such relief would be unfounded and misplaced. A number of years ago, the three companies that insure most Protestant churches reported that receiving approximately 260 reports a year of minors being sexually abused by church leaders and members. This is compared to the approximately 228 “credible accusations” a year of child sexual abuse reported by the Catholic Church. (Both numbers are much higher due to underreporting and the manner in which such information is collected and determined – that is another blog for another day.)"

To Justin's point:

"In reality, the likelihood is that more children are sexually abused in Protestant churches than in Catholic churches."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 08:57PM by carameldreams.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 10:08PM

Interesting.

I'm going to have to amend my thesis, which is offered here for debate. I said that the RC and the LDSC probably had more sexual abuse than Protestant churches. I still suspect that is true, at least for mainstream Protestantism since the authority of the pastor is more limited there than in the strictly hierarchical faiths. In short, members are less likely to accept their pastors' words as divine than Mormons are.

But through your citations you and Justin raise an important point: some of the Protestant world, particularly the fundamentalist sects, are very authoritarian. If my assumption--that hierarchy, the authority of the leader, and the power of indoctrination lead to more abuse--is correct, then surely the extremist parts of the Protestant world would have elevated rates of abuse as well.

That makes a lot of sense tome.

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Posted by: Justin ( )
Date: April 08, 2018 02:32PM

The Mainlines don't have as many kids and teens. Whenever I attended one it was mainly old people.

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Posted by: Justin ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 07:39PM

You can Google it. This is well known information. Public school teachers have the worst record undoubtedly because they have the most access to kids and teens. Even 50 years ago we had a school teacher fired because he abused a girl. He had done the same in previous school districts.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 09:08PM

Thank you.

I'm not sure that article is persuasive. The bottom line, repeated in the article several times, is that "there is no evidence that Catholic clergy are more likely to be involved in sexual misconduct than other clergy or professionals." And again, "Jenkins said there has been no formal study comparing denominations for rates of child abuse." And again, besides the study on the Catholic Church, "No comparable report exists for any other denomination." So there really isn't good evidence.

The one area in which the article refers to actual data is information from insurance companies, which report comparable numbers of claims. There are two interpretations of that fact. One is that the rates of child abuse are similar across denominations.

The other is that Catholic claims don't get to the insurance companies as often because members of that church do not report all the abuse or that the Catholic church settles out of court. It seems likely that both of those explanations are accurate. There is, for instance, no question that Latinos do not avail themselves of the legal system and insurance companies as often as white Americans. Also, the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church settle out of court all the time; they have the resources to buy silence, and they do. Since Protestant churches have less money and less authority relative to the RC and LDS churches, they probably have less ability to prevent abuse cases from reaching adjudication or insurance payoffs.

But thank you for the link. I learned some things.

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Posted by: Jane Cannary ( )
Date: April 07, 2018 05:16PM

I want to thank the General Authority who coined the phrase "non-consensual immorality". Thank you.


:-D

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