DH and I recently attended his father's funeral.

He had been diagnosed with dementia a few years ago and it was progressing rapidly. It was very sad watching his physical and mental capacity decline so quickly. However, it was a heart attack that killed him.

DH and I are both former TBMs turned agnostic/atheist. The funeral was very Mormon-y and was hijacked at the end by the bishop who spent 20+ minutes talking about "The Plan of Salvation" and quoting BofM scriptures. We know it was comforting to his mom and some other TBM relatives, but it was hard to listen to that drivel when focusing on his dad's life would have been so much more interesting and relevant, and, I think, more comforting.

I asked DH if he feels like the death of his father is more difficult as a non-believer than it would have been as a TBM. He said: "Nope. Now I appreciate all the time I had with him. I appreciate the small stuff more and I can focus on what's real. I can focus on the memories and experiences -- I don't need to speculate about what's next because this is it."

Watching a formerly strong, capable, funny, intelligent man deteriorate so quickly was further proof to me that there is no all-loving, all-powerful god. What purpose does a disease like dementia serve?

A heart attack is definitely the more merciful way to die and I'm so glad he went that way, in the end. I do think, though, that had he never developed dementia, his dying of a heart attack would have been more devastating to the family. As it is, the heart attack is more of a relief.


Our young son asks us if Grandpa is in heaven. That's what his cousins told him. We tell him that we don't know because Grandpa can't tell us. We know his body is dead and that is all we know. The best thing we can do now is hold on tight to our memories.

If this life is all we have, there is so much to live for right now. It's a relief to not be constantly planning for eternity. Good memories are far more comforting than a make-believe future.

Nobody knows who you are if you aren't genuine. Being genuine, for some reason, gets rejected by ever so many people, in favor of being 'special'.

I prefer to wrap up your story with the thought that your DH's dad was genuine, and very much appreciated. No matter how busy or involved you are, good memories are a useful foundation for at the very least, a basis for contentment.

Atheism would be a lot more comforting for me than the reality of the Mormon God, his plan of salvation, and his brutal judgment on his children.

This is where I have to agree with BYUBoner - The judgments "God" promises to those who are, ahem, "wicked" are more than enough for me question his existence.

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Atheism would be a lot more comforting for me than
> the reality of the Mormon God, his plan of
> salvation, and his brutal judgment on his
> children.

Mormon god is a brutal and cut throat dude. My throat is cut right now but from surgery not disobedience. It's crazy to think about that. God would slice your throat to take you out but i would rather repair my throat. I want to be the opposite of what i learned in my life.

Exactly! My husband and I have had this discussion about how cruel 'heavenly father' is to his children. Having children myself, I cannot imagine purposefully putting them through that, to see if they're faithful/obedient to me.

I'm sorry for your husband's loss. My father passed away last month, and I went though a similar experience. The funeral was indeed mormony, but my brother gave an excellent eulogy that focused on his life experiences and our relationship to him as our father, and as forplanning would have it, took up much of the hour service that Dad said it should be restricted to. Rather than the bishop, a church leader (not sure what), and very close friend of my father's gave the PoS speech, but didn't have much time, and spent a lot of that time on his friendship with Dad. I actually was asked to give the opening prayer, and out of respect for my dad, I did. First time to pray in a mormon church in nearly 25 years.

But as an agnostic atheist, my memories are the important things I keep in my heart rather than some hope that there might be, maybe, some kind of afterlife that maybe will include being able to meet my father again.

Since all of the promises made by priesthood, through teachings of Mormonism, turned out to be absolute rubbish, I cannot see any reason for believing the Mormon version of an afterlife. They've gotten their predictions for my life wrong on every single occasion. If this were baseball, wouldn't that equal a batting average of zero?

Anyway, I recently attended a Catholic funeral and was disappointed when the presiding priest got many of the details of the departed one wrong. He obviously didn't know the man at all. It made me realize that religion brought me no comfort whatsoever when it comes to death. I've never been afraid of dying but am a bit fearful of not dying soon enough.

When Christopher Hitchens, well known atheist, was dying, someone asked him if he would be surprised if he found himself facing the Almighty after he died. He replied that he did not believe in the Almighty and was only sad about dying because it would cut short the time he would have with his family and to do some things he had made plans to do. He had no fear of death. Then he said, "I've always quite liked surprises." Amen.

I think it should be noted that athiesm is not about believing that there is no god and no afterlife. It's about believing that we don't know and can not know whether or not there is a god and an afterlife. It's about a lack of belief, not in having some kind of belief. It's about being honest. None of us can ever know in this life, whether or not there is a god or an afterlife. After death, either we'll be somewhere and could then say 'wow, so there is life after death', or it all ends at death. In that case, we'll never be concious after death and thus will never know that there never was life for us after death. In either case, athiesm leaves no room for a belief that there is no life after death. Athiesm does not perpetuate a belief that would cause us to think that there is no god and no afterlife. But that is where it ends. Having faith or believing that maybe there is a god and applying that train of thought in your life seems to cross the line away from athiesm and in to belief.

Good point. I get confused when people interpret atheism as a refusal to accept any ethereal notion whatsoever. Atheism is an absence of deity, not the absence of faith. The body of thought I see from “atheists” on this board would be better named “skepticism.”

Belief is good. Belief drives us. Sometimes that belief is in a material reality, sometimes it’s not. It’s imperative to decide if thoughts and behaviors serve you, or if they don’t.

When I first viewed these boards around 2007 or so, many would have me believe that it’s popular for professional counselors to promote atheism. Perhaps there are some, but I have been counseled by some half dozen counselors and exactly Zero of them encouraged atheism. Every single one, however, did encourage some sort of spiritual life. This was not in Utah or any place of predominant religion. This was all in the Seattle area.

One counselor even suggested I think about the idea of Jesus more. This was when I still believed some of the negativity on these boards about spiritual belief, and I questioned that counselor’s wisdom.

But I’ve since discovered she was referring to a nondogmatic “Christ consciousness” which has no ties to the Bible and overlaps with Buddhist thought. It was simply a state of radical compassion and a quieting of personal desires. These values have been good for my mental health, and I have no intention to study the Bible with all its gore and threats, nor attend church and try to campaign against the rights of gays and immigrants.

The above quote from Hitchens supports my point. On his deathbed, he didn’t say “here I go, off to the cold ground, cuz that’s what atheists believe.” He said “I’m eager for the surprise.”

That doesn’t sound like a man with zero belief in an afterlife. It sounds like he potentially expected his consciousness to resume after his expiration, otherwise who is being “surprised?”

Testiphony (can’t login) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The above quote from Hitchens supports my point.
> On his deathbed, he didn’t say “here I go, off
> to the cold ground, cuz that’s what atheists
> believe.” He said “I’m eager for the
> surprise.”

There are no beliefs in atheism. It's a lack of belief in claimed god-things, not a belief IN anything.

> That doesn’t sound like a man with zero belief
> in an afterlife. It sounds like he potentially
> expected his consciousness to resume after his
> expiration, otherwise who is being
> “surprised?”

I would suggest that Hitchens' sarcasm went right over your head...and Taunton's.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/04/deathbed-conversion-christopher-hitchens-defiant-to-last

:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 03:33PM by ificouldhietokolob.

Based on a 2014 survey 32% of atheists and agnostics believe in an after life.

https://www.theskepticsguide.org/one-third-of-atheists-agnostics-believe-in-an-afterlife

Don't worry the after life (between life) is nothing like any Mormon or Christian belief!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 01:23PM by spiritist.

Please remember that atheism (the lack of belief in deity/deities) does NOT necessarily include lack of belief in some kind of survival after death. The ancient Sadducees believed in Jehovah/Elohim, but did not believe in an afterlife. Belief in reincarnation (part of the belief of most Buddhists) is not based on a belief in a deity.

I admit that I don't know what happens after this life, which is why I consider myself an atheist. I definitely don't believe in the Mormon make-believe "Plan of Salvation" with the caste system style of heaven.

I really like to think that there's something more than this brief earthly physical existence, but we wouldn't be capable of understanding it at this stage.

Like Hitchens said, if there's anything after death, it will be a surprise.

There is nothing comforting about an elaborate religious lie. I'd rather be surprised.

I've had this discussion many times with my wife. She finds the "certitude" of the PoS to be comforting and one of the more compelling reasons for her to be Mormon.

I once told her a long time ago that I find no comfort in something that Joseph Smith threw together from a handful of 19th century fads and had made up the rest to give it some sense of continuity.

She wanted to know what, if the PoS is bogus, do I believe happens after we die. I simply don't know, and I don't feel the need to make something up. That doesn't mean I don't speculate and toss around fanciful notions, but there's never any doubt that I'm just spit-balling.

f you want to 'recognize' the vast amount of evidence available you can use 'anecdotal evidence'.

What kind of 'scientific evidence' can one expect to support an after life except 'experiences'?

Psychics, remote viewers, channels, mediums, and many people with past life, NDE, OBE, ADCs, etc. have written books, articles, utube videos, etc. and are available to support an opinion of what 'life after death' means. Very little 'anecdotal evidence' suggests a 'Mormon' after life.

Not much 'anecdotal' or other evidence to suggest our conscious ceases to exist.

The scientific evidence is clear that our bodies die!

The path of the atheist is, sometimes, a very painful one.

I am an atheist.

I love my mother very, very dearly indeed.

She is now age 93; to know that shortly she will be extinct and that never again will I have the chance to love her, to interact with her, to talk with her, even to play Scrabble with her ...

That is immensely painful. Difficult to come to terms with? You bet it is!

But sometimes you just have to confront reality and stare ugly, nasty, very uncomfortable truths in the face.

Sometimes one just has to accept that there are no convenient comfort blankets to hand.

I know what you mean with the PoS talks at funerals. Shortly after we left the church, my husband's grandpa passed away. His funeral was the absolute best funerals I've been to. It was enjoyable hearing about his life and the memories his loved ones shared of him. All that abruptly ended when my husband's arrogant, holier than thou, uncle got up to give the PoS talk. In his whole talk, I don't recall him ever mentioning the deceased at all. It was strictly church business, and it definitely killed the funeral.
I also went to my husband's cousin's funeral, who died way too young of cancer. She left behind six young kids, so I thought that would trigger the waterworks, for sure. Well, it didn't. Even when they had the kids sing, "A Child's Prayer" I didn't shed a tear. That song would've normally set me off before leaving the church. The only thing that upset me was everyone saying she was back living with her Heavenly Father, who loved her very much. If he loved her, or her kids, he wouldn't have took her away from her children, leaving them motherless, at such a young age.
I agree with you though. Atheism has weirdly brought me more comfort with death, than the Mormon's PoS ever did.

When I finally gave up my belief in god, I noticed that I was so relaxed. Admitting that I didn’t know what (if anything) happens after mortality gave me a feeling of calmness that I never felt when I “knew the truth.”

"Good memories are far more comforting than a make-believe future."

Yes, especially when the Mormons told me that I would be sealed for eternity to an oaf who beat me and almost killed me. The Mormons leaders told me and my children that they were also sealed to this thug, even though they had never met him, and were born several years later, to my second Mormon husband.

Joseph Smith's make-believe heaven seemed more like Hell for me--and I always tried to be an obedient and sincere servant of the cult.

What a relief to know it's all a hoax!

My parents are with me every day, in my thoughts and decisions, in the happy moments, when I'm lonely....

Thank you for your post, Chica!

Mormon heaven was always a stressful thought for me, even though I didn't suffer from any abusive relationships.

Just the different reward levels, the idea of living forever, the idea that this is my body forever, that my role in eternity has already been defined for me - all of it was stressful.

I can only imagine how hard it was for you when you had those beliefs along with the belief you would be stuck with your abusive partner forever.

Learning what a fraud Joe Smith was was a huge relief! That meant I no longer needed to believe in anything he taught.

Then it occurred to me that all religions are based on ideas that men teach to their followers as gospel, all the way back through recorded history.

I finally decided that I will no longer follow any man/woman who claims to speak for god.

I cherish the memories of lost loved ones. That's where I find comfort.

I seem to recall from my TBM days reading instructions from SLC that funerals presented good opportunity for Plan of Salvation instructions. It said that some who attend funerals are not regular church goers and this is a good chance to preach about the hereafter. Also it stated that people will be more receptive, since they just lost a loved one.

I have attended a lot of Mormon funerals in my lifetime because I am an accompanist and was there to play the piano for someone who was singing. I hate it when the bishop goes on a PoS rant. Like most of you have said, the best funerals are a celebration of the deceased's life.

One of the best funerals I have attended was for wife's mother and we had a "service" in the back yard. No prayers or sermons, just friends and relatives remembering and honoring her.

One positive thing about funerals is that they often turn into family reunions and you get to catch up with relatives and others you haven't seen in years. We have old 8mm home movies of my Grandfather's funeral in 1953. I still like to get them out occasionally and reminisce.

A memorial service honoring your loved one is perfect! No religion needed.

You're right about the family reunion. Always fun to see those family members you haven't seen in years!

... with all the promises to keep in touch ...

Per the Handbook of Instruction, bishops are supposed to speak about the Plan of Salvation. The church also "admonishes" to keep funeral services at an hour. It's terrible. The church makes a funeral about the church and not the individual and their life.

Funerals are for Intensive Mormonizing.

I overdosed at the funeral of a former Mormon who rolled over in his casket as the Bishop of the Ward he stopped attending lifted this good man up into Mormon Heaven, where God wears a tie and trusts mere mortals to count the loot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z3pjXmNq2g