Posted by:
Tevai
(
)
Date: May 15, 2018 05:52PM
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai,
>
> There is a difference between the situation in
> Israel proper and in the whole of Palestine,
> Jewish and Arab. The problem arises because the
> settlements represent intrusions of Jewish power
> into areas that are governed by, and recognized as
> the territory of, the Palestinian Authority.
> Every new settlement is thus a step towards a
> one-state solution as the rest of Palestine
> shrinks.
I agree with this, and always have. In addition to the settlement-based land confiscation, I am (and always have been) very concerned about the person-based land confiscation which is going on--I do not "like" those who are doing these things and I think they are terrible Jews (and terrible for the Jewish people as a whole) when they do them.
> It's well established that, given the size of the
> two populations and their growth rates, the
> encorporation of Arab Palestine in a single state
> would soon result in an Israel in which Jews are
> in the minority.
Yes, this is one of the practical reasons the ultra-right "religious" crazies use to pressure their women into having ten-or-more child families...which means that they ALL grow up in, and live as adults in, poverty.
> That is a serious problem given
> that most Arabs will not want to convert to
> Judaism or make other major cultural concessions
> in order to gain full citizenship.
True.
> There would
> soon be a majority from an ethnic and religious
> group that faces systematic discrimination.
This is happening (and has "always" happened--since 1948) NOW, only the specific major targets in the past decades have been non-Orthodox Jews. That this would happen to Muslims, too, as soon as they reach "critical mass" is unquestionable.
> That notion of systematic discrimination may
> require further mention. Most countries,
> including the US and France, do a poor job of
> integrating large minorities--to put it mildly.
> But Israel is no better.
Right now, in 2018, I think Israel is doing a better job than the USA is in saving biological LIVES (I am thinking of Puerto Rico and Central America here). Cultural "integration" has never, ever, been an Israeli point of strength, and I do think that (over time) it has been an American point of strength (the Irish, the Jews, etc.). There is definitely a culture shock involved in going to Israel (whether for a trip or to live your life), and the "dugri" ("straight talk") style of Israeli life can be really hurtful...and very much against the humanity of integrating different cultures.
> Like you, presumably, I
> have spent time in the Arab parts of Israel in
> which people enjoy citizenship.
When I was in Israel, it was as a part of a group of American Hebrew school teachers, and the closest I got to "Palestinian life" was our Palestinian waiters in the various places where we ate...and in a bus, guarded by an ex-IDF guy with a gun, sort of "overlooking" Jericho (because I wanted SO MUCH to go there, and our tour guide said it was too dangerous). So other than getting reprimanded for saying "Todah" ("thank you") TOO MUCH to our Palestinian waiters, because it was deemed to be too typically "American" and not sufficiently "Israeli," that and my "trip to Jericho" were the sum total of my interaction with Palestinians while I was there.
> You know when you
> enter one of those because the standard of living
> drops immediately. They are separate and unequal.
Yes...but this is true of much of Israel as a whole. Affordable apartments are not necessarily "nice" apartments in Israel (there is tremendous demand for housing, and prices are comparatively extremely expensive by most American standards). What I did see was that Palestinians and Israelis of comparable socio-economic status seemed to live pretty much equal to each other. Unless people were wealthy (which mostly meant that they were immigrants from either North American or Western Europe), you just accept that the living standards for housing are substantially lower than would be true of most places in the USA.
> We also know that the Ethiopian Jews who were
> airlifted in after problems in their homeland were
> for decades confined to tent cities and (I don't
> want to use the word ghetto for obvious regions)
> distinct neighborhoods. Israel has not done well
> at integration.
I totally agree with this as a historical fact, but what I have learned in recent years is that integration in Israel is getting better. As a nation, Israel seems to be moving through "the steps" faster than was the truth here in the U.S., and there is a growing amount of Ethiopian/non-Ethiopian marriage going on, which is always a leading indicator of growing equality down the road a ways.
> What I have been trying to say in this and the
> other threads is that a two state solution,
> perhaps with a common foreign policy mechanism and
> (if Israel is wise) aid and investment transfers
> is the best way to guarantee the country's
> security and its core values.
I agree with this. I have always been a "Two State Solution" person (even when it wasn't cool ;) ).
> The settlements are
> a problem, a threat, because they will change the
> demographic realities from what you describe above
> to a situation in which a minority of Jews rule de
> facto over a massive and aggrieved Arab
> population.
This could happen...but it could also follow what is now the "Ethiopian lead." My main concern is the PERCENTAGE of Jews who are choosing to live in the West Bank for religiously ideological reasons, rather than economic (nice homes/nice communities/very good schools/nice amenities) ones.
I see the religiously ideological Jewish settlers as a significant and continuing threat to peace, and to peaceful co-existence. If someone really and truly believes, in their deepest heart of hearts and with every atom of their being, that GOD ("Himself") gave THAT land to THEM (solely), then the analogy would be, I think, the white Americans of the slavery era, who thought similar things and for very similar reasons.
Unfortunately, I do not see Israelis at any time looking at American history for pointers on how to avoid our most regrettable historical mistakes.
When "God" is your answer, you obviously don't need any practical help from people who have already, in many ways, been through a similar historical process.
A "Two-State Solution" is the best alternative I can see given the facts as they exist.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2018 05:56PM by Tevai.