(topic ambiguously dirty on purpose, cause it's early dammit, and I'm easily amused)

Anyway, why is it such a difficult notions for Mormons to accept that their church has done some really fucked up shit in the past? I hear my Mormon friends defending the church's policy of racism and sexism all the time. I also hear them saying that all sorts of things never happened, when their own church records clearly state that they did. Sure, it's no fun to realize that the organization that's supposed to be playing telephone with God and earthly mortals is actually a bit on the corrupt side, but so fucking what?

I know there are a few Catholics on this board. Catholics have a very similar belief in a living mouthpiece of god, only they call him the pope. Previous popes have silently consented to the slave trade, chosen neutrality over that whole Nazi fiasco, and aided in covering up multiple cases of child abuse/molestation. Current popes have apologized for the actions of popes that came before them. Why is it so much easier for Catholics to keep their faith with full knowledge of their church's fuck-ups than it is for Mormons? Is it simply because the Catholic church's fuck-ups are so much more public, making it hard to cover your ears and go "lalalalalala" when someone brings one up?

Point being, every church has some seriously twisted skeletons in its closet. Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, etc. Current followers of the religion can readily admit those things happened though. They can say, "Wow, the Salem Witch Trials were a travesty against humanity" but still not lose faith in the current church and the faith it promotes. Are Mormons really so delusional that they think their church (which is comprised of imperfect men, by their own definition) can do no wrong? Or is their faith so shaky that the slightest little thing would send it all tumbling down like a house of cards? Or is it something else?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2011 12:38PM by Susan I/S.

That's what she said!

For the same reason we (many of us) had a hard time facing up to the fact that our families were totally dysfunctional. I've been on a mission to find my old neighborhood friends and when I do find them, we all commiserate on the fact that our families were all fucked up back in the day. We didn't talk about it much back then because we were kids and thought everyone's families were the same. It was just normal.

Thus, abnormal becomes normal and we won't admit that our "family" is fucked up.

Just sayin'...

Ron

And now that I have finished reading your entire post I will take a shot at what I think might be at least part of the answer.

Maybe it is because Catholics go to to church once for an hour on Sunday, if at all ,and that is it.

Mo's give 10% of their money and most of their extra time in trying to serve their church, have home evening, teach their kids all about mo'ism and the BOM ( scripture study and family prayer ever day), Vt'ing and Ht'ing, and the list never ends.

In Utah, all of your friends are mo's, so even your social life functions around the church, and if self employed then your business as well.

Catholics have little to lose by admitting the truth, because they never gave much in the first place, and I think that may be the difference. But I could be totally wrong.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2011 10:39AM by think4u.

Good points. It is like making a bad stock investment. You don't want to admit it and just hang on to the stock hoping that it will rebound rather than keep on tanking. Human nature. With that much invested, you can't let go.

So it's because the Morg is a lifestyle as opposed to a religion? I guess I'm used to groups of people who accept and admit that leaders of their group have made mistakes. Sometimes HUGE mistakes. The cover your ears and go, "lalalalalala" thing just freaks me out.

On this same subject, I've had conversations with my LDS friends where we talked about the church and they said things that sounded like their response to my question based on their own opinions, but then I kept hearing the same responses word for word no matter who I asked, and I realized they're all parroting the exact same Mormon catch phrases. It disturbs me because they do it so naturally that I don't think they even realize they're doing it. It's like a conditioned response to keywords or something...

That plus it's drilled into us from the time we're in the womb that the church is perfect. That it's god's restored church. That we have a prophet that speaks directly to god.

So if you admit that TSCC has made mistakes, in fact some pretty serious mistakes, and has told some pretty egregious lies, then maybe it's not perfect. And if it's not perfect then maybe it's not god's restored church after all. If you admit a prophet was wrong then maybe he really doesn't speak directly to god.

After all the time and money that members have invested into TSCC, and after all the times they have made complete fools of themselves defending the organization based on nothing but what the organization has told them, they have a lot invested in the organization being what they think it is, and trying to make everyone else believe that too. Otherwise they look like naive, gullible fools.

Great post, Lillium. I agree totally.

Agreed lillium - it claims to be God's true church so it can't fuck up - or else God is effed up. Sure, individuals can be imperfect but the church is always perfect and the currently accepted myths about the church (i.e. first vision) are also perfect. GBH said a bunch of times that either the first vision is true or the church is a lie. Well, the first vision isn't true so....

Basically, they've painted themselves into a corner that they are the perfect gospel of God and everything is in black and white. Either/or...all or nothing. They are trapped by their own need to create a church that panders to those who require black and white answers in a multi-colored world.

To admit to having poor judgment is very hard for many LDS, especially the most self righteous of the bunch.

Coming to the conclusion that their whole life has been based on a lie is so awful they just resort to defending the Morg, no matter what.

So they just continue on with what they know no matter how dysfunctional.

I realized at 51 that the church was a most likely a fraud, but kept on studying for 5 years, I had to make sure, as I was highly invested and there was much to lose.

But for me, even though I did not tell my truth and leave 'til age 56, I still figured I had hopefully 20 or 30 more descent years to live, if lucky, and I did not want to live them being dishonest with myself or anyone else.

I really do think even if I were very old, I would still have wanted to know the truth, but I might not have left if I only needed to stick it out and fake it for a couple more years.
I am not good a faking, and it was all making me physically ill.

When one finally sees the fraud, it just becomes glaringly obvious, and facing it is painful, but not as painful as continuing to live a lie, at least not for me.

but if it lasts more than four hours a visit to a doctor might be appropriate

"I'll take care of IT for you...."

''Nurse..''
'Yes, Doctor'
''Pass me the small guillotine will you...''

is your GF a Bobbitt?

Remem: the (Bugs Bunny voice) Scweeeey things about the Morg are Mostly.... NOW!

If they weren't a cult NOW, they could 'splain things from 'the past' as aberations/ mistakes, etc.

but with the Temples/sealings/exclusions...
and lots of other weirdness,

They HORRIBLY screw up lots of 'Eternal Families' with their support of 'TBMs' in divorces, etc.

Problems with 'the Faithful'? alcohol, sexual, etc...
they IGNORE lots, here & now, don't they?


just sayin'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2011 12:38PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Catholic popes nowadays are not prophets...that's not their job. Their job is actually to make sure things in the church are done according to canon law...you will not near any words or prophecies from a pope...

Being a catholic where we live doesn't require us to wear funny clothing...we have many different friends...many religions...it's not a lifestyle..

Makes a difference

stormy

I think it's because the church has such heavy claims. Like that it's the restored church of Christ. And just the general "knowing" that everything in the church is right and true. Mormons don't just believe it, they claim they "know" the church is true.

In Catholic confession, you confess, are absolved of your sins, do penance, and go about your business. It's all private.

From what I understand, it's different in LDS.

Let's say a Catholic engaged person does the nasty, and feels guilty enough to go to confession over it. S/he gets absolution and the "go and sin no more" treatment; then the wedding goes forward according to plan.

If a Mormon engaged person does the same, and confesses to a bishop, all hell breaks loose. Temple recommends are yanked, the wedding gets postponed, and EVERYONE knows you are the Filthy Sex-Haver, disgracing your parents and relatives.

So coming clean isn't as scary for Catholics. We all know we're fallible (the original sin thing), but we all know we can be forgiven and do better.

You are right - Mormons have serious consequences for serious mistakes. Confessing is scary for Mormons - it's also an all or nothing proposition. Either you are a good Mormon or you aren't. So you are more afraid to be human - because you are a God in embryo.

Catholicism isn't a lifestyle. There are damn few Catholic mothers and grandmothers who are going to go into hysterics over the fear that you won't be with them in Heaven if you go inactive or even change religions. Most of them are just plain ecstatic if they see their younguns even show up in church at all, much less worry about whether they go to confession.

The best Catholic religious educators teach kids about critical thinking. I own a book titled "Why You Can Dissent and Still Be a Loyal Catholic."