Ah..I do still read here. Sorry for calling you guys a "cult" on the board. I didn't think I'd be found out :P I just mean that you all seem to think mormonism is bad and persuade others not to join. Everybody is kind of a cult if you think about it. Take a group of high school girls. They all are *supposed* to think and dress the same way. If one of them steps out of line,she is shunned from the group.

Well, for me, I think it's the right thing. I don't have a lot of close friends/supportive people in my life, and the people at church have been really great to me for the most part.I think it's a good way for me to connect with God.

I know there's probably a lot of negative aspects, but I'm going to give this a try. I don't buy into everything, but I feel that it could be a helpful and good part of my life.

In what way is it helpful or good? I'm really curious what the LDS church is offering you that can't be found elsewhere at a much lower cost to your integrity and wallet.

Also, be prepared to be assigned duties to keep you active, and once you are dunked I would be surprised if even half the people buttering you up, still show the same interest in you.

Perfect response!

If it makes you happy, do it - no need to whine here, jump on the Moroni Express and hie that Comet to Kolob!

And if it doesn;t work out for you, RfM will keep the light on.

Hi Susie.

Religion can be useful even if it's not true. If you think it can add value to your life, then you're welcome to it.

However, your participation at a recovery from Mormonism forum confuses me slightly as I don't see how your chosen path will be supported, or reaffirmed here.

I assume she still participates here because she's still on the fence. She might have one leg over, but she's still on the fence nonetheless. I don't think asking her to defend her position will help!

Valid point. I admit that my response was reactionary. I don't want to discourage anyone from enjoying the benifits that a resource such as this forum can provide.

I figured it was reactionary. I tried to keep my message from sounding like a mean old slap on the wrist, because I didn't mean it to be. I'm glad you took it the way I had intended!!!

definition of a cult is more in depth than that....like following a particular leader...(J.S.) and a multitude of other things.... maybe if you went on to Richard Packhams site you will find some items of interest!! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 03:53PM by bignevermo.

My problem with the Mormon church is that it does not live and let live. They try to enact legislation in states that affects non-Mormons. When you pay tithing, it goes to fuel that engine. That's why I would encourage you not to be part of such an organization.

Clearly you haven't been around long if you think that. (No offensive.) Have you seen the wars between Christians and Atheists at times? The only belief we have in common is that the church is wrong; that's it.

Many people think the church is evil, some think that it has some good qualities.

Some hate all organized religion, some still attend the LDS church.

There is no cult here. A cult is a place that forces you to think about a LARGE number of things in the same way as everyone else, being told what to think instead of being told to think. My dear, the church is indeed a cult. A high school group of friends? Not so much.

TSCC is very bad for people, emotionally and financially. I was born into it, and left after 40 years when I started reading all the dark stuff they don't want you to know about. The "supportive people" you'll meet are not true friends. You'll see.

"I don't buy into everything, but I feel that it could be a helpful and good part of my life."
Mormons will tell you "either it's all true or NONE of it is true". Be prepared to find out that NONE of it is true.

but I really do take issue with the word "cult."

It's not a word to throw around lightly, and I disagree that "everything's like a cult when you think about it." Mostly because the underlying issue of cults are that they are destructive organizations.

Honestly, I'm on the fence as to whether the church is a "cult" even though it was a very destructive organization for me. And I mostly am on the fence because I really feel strongly about throwing that word around lightly.

If the church brings you happiness, I really don't want to persuade you from getting that. I won't agree with its doctrines, but you sound like you don't agree with some of its doctrines already.

However, if Mormonism doesn't turn out so well, this board will be here for you, and it's free.

SusieP, sometimes you just have to experience things in order to get perspective. If your heart is telling you that you need to go in this direction, then go. However, please don't be a stranger here. If/when things don't seem right to you, if you need perspective outside LDS, come here.

I can understand how the closeness and support appeals to you, especially if you don't have many friends or family, or a close support system. A lot of people convert for the same reason, and at first, mormonism seems like a close family with welcoming open arms. Unfortunately, a lot of people find that once they convert, all the effort, the encouragement, the warm reception is gone, and people are on to the next human project, the next welcoming committee. It leaves people in a lost and confused place, because not only do they not have a support system, but the one they thought they were joining didn't exactly turn out the way they expected. I don't know your situation, but if you are a single female convert, you probably won't be treated very well once you join. You might have already noticed on the LDS board on BBC (LDS Families and Others Welcome board, not the Mormons & more, I'm not really familiar with that one) has the favored members and the not-so-favored ones who aren't treated the same way. Please pay attention to the group dynamics there, even the subtle nuances, and then try to see that as a cross section of mormon culture.

Maybe it's like this in a lot of religions, but you might consider broadening your search to find one that embraces your mentality and has a good record on tolerance, while being a good support network. For instance Unitarian Universalism or maybe the Methodist church? I know this is unsolicited advice, but before you commit to LDS baptism, please try some other organizations and see if you feel the same warmth and happiness. I suggest this not only to broaden your horizons, but also because once you are baptized LDS you actually have to formally leave, and that's quite a process. Not to mention, being a mormon is expensive, and if you aren't a full tithe payer, you will be looked down on. Can you afford a fixed and enforced (yearly tithe settlement mtg with the bish) 10% rather than most organization's "what you can afford" policy?

If joining LDS seems right for doctrinal reasons, I guess I don't really have a comment beyond what you have already read here in the past.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 04:11PM by wittyname.

As you stated, there can be a certain amount of expected conformity and shunning with school kids, that's true.

The LDS church ratchets it up to the point where it decides what you can drink, how to dress, how many earrings you can have, an assigned amount of money you are required to give them, who can be at your wedding, etc. etc.

It will also try to get your own family to shun you if you dare to leave.

All of that, plus much more makes it a bit more than what any high school clique has going that is negative.

There is bound to be some positives, but for all of us, the positives cost way too much.

I grew up confused and frustrated.

You will be subjected to humiliating breaches of privacy and etiquette.

I could not wait to turn 18 and get the hell out of dodge.

Good luck to you in whatever you choose, just know that things in the mormon church aren't always what they seem.

Seriously.

Do you have any idea about the tiny box that you'll be shoe-horned into because you have a uterus?

Just remember that you can always resign (if you do indeed join).

Good luck, either way.

I don't care about convincing you that Mormonism is bad.. But I'd like to convince you that it isn't correct. It's convincing you that Joseph never received golden plates or the Priesthood.

Because people of like minds like to associate together does not make them a cult.

People that like the same sort of fashions are likely to have other things in common so they hang out together. These groups, like the high school group you refer to, do not send out missionaries, do not demand 10% of you wages, do not have secret ceremonies, etc..

There are many things that separate a clique from a cult. TSCC is a cult, a high school clique is not. It is sad that you need to twist reality in such ways in order to maintain your faith.

The LDS church and its teachings has harmed a great many people, even people that want nothing to do with TSCC, myself included. How do you really know your Tithing is used for "good" rather than hurtful reasons? You leadership tells you so? How do you know they are talking as LDS leaders and not as just men?

If you make a charge like that, you need to explain who you mean exactly and what criteria you're using to designate what you consider a cult. Otherwise, you're lashing out at thin air and expecting people to either believe you or prove you're wrong about saying next to nothing.

Have you been paying attention lately to the fact that there have been more Christian threads than atheist threads with absolutely no atheist detractors?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 04:33PM by tiff.

I have noticed this. I'm not shocked as I've seen that in the past too. Most atheists routinely display abundant sensitivity, according to the needs and requests and current circumstances of posters who are Christian or are struggling with their beliefs as well as newbies just leaving Mormonism or just facing some shocking discoveries they have made.

It amazes me how many deny that this occurs here. I see it all the time. Such compassion and understanding always warms my heart.

Would that some of the sterner Christians would be as open.

Hi Susie. This is the first time I have seen post/s from or about you so I don't know your story. I was a convert too. I joined because I had experiences that I interpreted as being promptings by God to get baptized. I was already a Christian but without a home church (I had tried several denominations in Protestantism, some on the fringes). I didn't feel that my life was incomplete or that I had any personal needs, which are reasons given as to why people join Mormonism. I did like the "family" focus (which I subsequently found out doesn't work out in reality as well as the concept sounds). I was convinced it was all very spiritual. (Again, the concept sounds good, in practice not so much, at least in my experience).

In a nutshell, I found there was too much of a barrier placed between an individual and God - for instance, the Mormon hierarchical leadership model, emphasis on "works", being kept too busy with "callings", having to follow a set program, etc. - all aspects of Mormonism that for me took the focus off an individual being able to commune directly with God. In particular, the emphasis on "works" (callings, meetings, checklists, recommended readings lists - leaving out anything non-Mormon - etc) didn't leave any time for anything else and there was no time for just being spiritual, it was all about being busy. That's not the best way to explain it but those are some of the main reasons I found myself very unhappy inside Mormonism. No room for an individual spiritual path would sum it up for me, I guess. For instance, they tell you that you can find God inside the temple. Uh, not in my experience (and I _really_ wanted to believe and wanted to make it work). I found the temple to be a microcosm of the Mormon world - there is a set routine that you must follow (up to and including not being able to leave the room once you have started a session - that did not do my intense claustrophobia any good at all), there is the promise of meeting/communing with God or at least great prayer time at the end (in the Celestial Room) but one is shuffled out of there in a NY minute - absolutely no time for a quiet moment, never mind prayer, and other things that sound good but don't work out in practice as promised. Hence, boundless disappointment, over and over and over. (Maybe "boundless disappointment" describes Mormonism in a nutshell!)

I think among the biggest shocks for a convert is the instant ceasing of the pre-baptism "love-bombing" that gives you a faulty view of what it will be like to be a member. I had a Mormon friend, met his family, who intro'd me to the mishies, who all made me feel special and important and needed and loved and appreciated - while I was taking the discussions - but afterwards I was immediately re-assigned to a different ward (not allowed to go to the chapel they attended) and ended up seeing those Mormon friends only occasionally and then never. (When they moved into my area and were attending the SAME chapel building I was for SM, they were in a different ward and so yet again I was "not allowed" to attend church with them (even though we lived in the same town and attended the same building! - it would have been a very small sacrifice for the leaders to unbend enough to give me permission for something that may have kept me attending).

In addition to not seeing those friends much any more, the missionaries all eventually move on, to other areas or back home, and they have no desire to stay in touch either, I found, even though they acted like your best friends when you were on the baptism track with them.

All this left me trying to make new friends in a new and different church, not easy to do when the members are so busy they don't _want_ to see new members join, in my experience, and they definitely can't take on any more activities or friendships as their lives are already overly busy. I didn't feel welcome at all, and that never changed. I hung in there for the "spiritual experiences" I had had that I interpreted to mean this is the church I should join.

I found that once you are able to look at things from a different perspective and possibly reinterpret your initial impressions, the significance or meaning of said experiences can be seen in a new light and you can see that even though the experience may still be meaningful, it doesn't necessarily mean what you thought it did and therefore, any decisions arising from that experience are open to being changed. Indeed, I believe we are growing and changing constantly as humans and one "special" experience 10 yrs ago with subsequent negative experiences around that is no reason to stick to a path that isn't working out well for you. In short, I think that if one does indeed experience something spiritually significant to themselves it doesn't necessarily mean what we may think it does; ie. one significant moment in time doesn't mean I need to join the Mormon Church or if I do so, it doesn't mean I need to stick there if I'm entirely miserable and depressed and without hope or joy there. Yes, such and such moment may have been significant to me but the _meaning_ I attach to it can change as I gain more insight and go through more experiences.

That is why when a Mormon says something to the effect that "I believe in the Gospel, even though I am exceptionally miserable and life isn't working out well for me, because one time, on my mission 32 yrs ago, I thought I received a message from God", it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to perceive any experience in that way, to that extreme.

A quick metaphor for that idea relates to marriage. Maybe 22 yrs ago, a person had the joyful experience of falling in love with a great person. They made a commitment to share their lives. I respect commitment and try to live up to any vows I make but not to the extreme of damaging my physical or mental health. Thus, if one is on a mission and becomes ill, it should be OK to change plans and return home to get well. If one is in a relationship and it all falls apart, it should be considered acceptable to re-evaluate the partnership. If one gets baptized and/or joins a church and finds they just don't fit after all (like me) it should be OK to find a different place without being labelled an apostate, a sinner, hell-bound, or worse. Belonging to a certain church does not guarantee access to God and neither does not belonging deny one access.

Another nutshell: I found that Mormonism for me was like having to buy a CD containing 20 songs just to get the only 1 that I really wanted. You're forced to take all 20 selections but 19 are no good to you. Only it's more serious than buying a CD you end up never listening to. It's a program you promise to follow, when you don't know all the parts to it. It would be like signing up to take a university degree but they don't tell you what the field is or what topics will be covered - in short, something you go into largely blind. You know you'll have a degree at the end but don't know if you'll be slicing into human brains as a pathologist or into fish guts as a biologist. Of course, nobody would do that - you'd want to choose your own major and know the elements of that program as well as what work you'd be qualified to do afterwards. Who goes blind into anything important? Not a rational person.

As a Protestant Christian I believed that an individual can access God directly, any time, any place, without needing intermediaries. My take-home message from my Mormon interlude was that one can have "God experiences" anywhere, within or without any group. Such experiences don't attach to a particular group, meaning that because it occurred while I was with the Mormons does not mean it was God telling me to be Mormon, as I initially thought. Or maybe He thought it would be a good idea for me to go through that but it doesn't mean it has to be forever (thank God, lol).

But the bottom line, obviously, is that we need to find our own way. I wouldn't necessarily choose _not_ to join just because people told me not to, but I'd listen to their viewpoints for sure before making my choice.

Good luck, whatever you choose, and maybe the best thing to remember if you do join is something that took me a long time to figure out: It's OK to change your mind! I used to think a vow was forever. Well, that is the idea behind it but I have found that if one is doing one's best with the knowledge they have, it's even OK to "break" a vow in order to move on in a new direction if that seems like a rational choice at the time.

We'd definitely be interested to hear what you choose to do and how it works out for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 04:44PM by Nightingale.

Thank you for your story. It has definitely given me a lot to think about. I think I'll read more on this site,, outside of the message board.

I think I remember Suziep from a couple weeks ago. Suzie are you the one that didn't want to disapoint the Missionary, that you feel you have a close relationship with? If so remember as soon as the baptisim is over you will cease to be SuzieP, and become Sister ______, and he will move on to the next customer. Also I started a thread on this board last week about "why did you convert", that you should definatly read. A great many of the reasons was because, "I loved _____ and they insisted". Some were just because they were lonley. They all had one thing in common....they are all here now, and sorry they ever took the plunge(except a few kept a wife or hub). Think of you Mishy as a used car salesman. "...So,....What can I do to put you in some Garments,....TODAY!"

The issues many on this board have with Mormonism go way beyond the pressure to conform. That's merely the tip of the iceberg as it were.

Personally for me the good in the Church came at too high a price. I realized that I would have to claim to believe things that I did not believe in order to continue to "play". I'd have to perpetuate ideas that I think are not true. Does some really need to perpetuate bronze age myths in order to be a good and spiritually person? I didn't want to lie to others and especially to myself.

That said if you feel that remaining with the Church is best for you— then I wish you the best. Just remember that the LDS view is only one view of the world— and a fairly narrow view at that. Keep an open mind on your journey and don't be afraid to study other sources on faith and even Mormonism.

Do the people here discourage others from joining? Yup, the same way people who uncover scams and fake products discourage others from getting scammed.

One thing I have seen here over the years is that RfM is all about shedding the light on truth. And even if some posters seem angrier than others, it does NOT make that truth any less valid.

There are literally hundreds of things here on RfM that LDS does NOT want you to know. Some of it they say you "aren't ready for," which doesn't make much sense to me. The Catholic church makes you go to a year's worth of classes and shows you the church's history and makes you really work for conversion so that your decision is made based on facts and knowledge. LDS rushes people to baptism and counsels them to ONLY get their knowledge from them. What are they hiding, and why can't you know these things before you convert? Doesn't that bother you?

They have hooked you based on feelings and your need for relationships. Join a book club. Join a bowling league. Volunteer at your local soup kitchen. This is not your only option for relationships, but it IS a life decision that you can't easily undo.

I know the Mormons and More board makes it seem like you can be half in and half out of LDS, but you can't. Most of those women will tell you that their honesty costs them dearly in the form of approval and relationships within the church. You can be a casual Catholic. You can be a casual Lutheran. You will have a very hard time being a casual Mormon, however. Little by little, (or maybe not so little by little) that approval and love will start to dissolve if you don't fall in line and be the Molly Mo everyone wants you to be. You can see it on the main LDS board. You are either with them or you're not. Heaven help you if you're not.

Do you HONESTLY think a 14 year old con man had an experience with God so compelling that he changed his story about it multiple times? Do you REALLY buy the golden plates story? Or how when the first pages of the BoM went missing God got mad and Joseph couldn't redo them the original way (because he was a con man and COULDN'T replace them word for word) so He changed them? Really?

You have read enough here to know the truth about church history and the origins of the BoM. If you still want to be a part of the church that was built on fraud, so be it. But never, ever say you weren't warned.

I grew up in that religion and I left it over 4 years ago at the age of 47. I was one of those who truly believed it. Then I learned the truth about all the lies, fraud and deceit. I learned the true history. I learned the truth about Joseph Smith and all of his polygamous wives, including 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball, and women who were already married. I learned the truth about the New and Everlasting Covenant which is the sealing covenant in the mormon temples. It is a covenant of plural marriage. They didn't tell me that before I went to the temple.

The list is endless. There are many websites with lots of information. The choice is yours, but hopefully you will become fully informed before you make the choice.

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

http://www.i4m.com/

http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

http://www.mormonthink.com/

http://packham.n4m.org/#MORMONISM

My best to you.
TG

Thanks for the info and links

Dear Susie!
Before you make a descicion I would like for you to read this link, written and maintained by a LDS member. It's about the founder of the Mormon Church.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

You may also want to read the book "In Sacred Loneliness" about the same subject, also written by a Mormon and available at Signature Books. I have been a member for many many years and not ONCE told about this and the many things in the LDS history Mormons call 'anti' if confronted with, even it it's from their own history. Perhaps you also want to search for Meadow Mountain Massacre. Or ask about the masonic rituals in the temple and the underwear you HAVE to wear to go to the Temple. If you get married there, your family is not allowed to be present, unless they're not only Mormons but full tithe payer, wearing the same underwear as well. Ask them. Are you sure that's the kind of church you want to follow, no matter how nice the members are? It's your life and choice, but ask, ask ask and verify, not just trough burnings in the bussom. I'm Praying for you!!

I wish you happiness in whatever you do, but as someone else posted, other churches like the Catholic church have you take at least a year's worth of classes, and they make sure that the convert is only joining because THEY want to, and not because of pressure or hormones.

The issue with the Mormon church is that they pressure people to commit to baptism before they're really ready, and some of us have joined only to please someone else we're with, hence the term, "hormonal convert."

While I'm an ex-Mormon, I have never had a desire to convince others to leave, or potential converts to reconsider joining. In fact, I even have step siblings who are Mormon, and I get along just fine with them.

Trust me, you will be a topic of their 2 1/2 min talk at church, We showed so and so the way to the gospel and we are so blessed... blah blah blah, they sold you on it and you are their success story. Don't be thinking that it is about you.

...costs so much (10%+) and doesn't tell the truth about the history of the club? It is constantly sanitizing words of leaders from the past as well as the present.

There are a lot better clubs to belong to that don't cost as much and have more integrity then the LDS church.

Like Nightingale, I was also a convert.

I recall the 'love bombing' - at the time it seemed like honest, open friendship. I quickly found it didn't last - although in my case I got into the YSA social scene, so didn't feel the 'emotional drop' that hits many converts when the 'friends' move onto someone new

I don't want to hit you with a wall of text, so I will keep it short.

there are pro's and con's in most things
TSCC has very few pro's.............. but it is very big in Con's

Then we'll believe you. I think you'll loose a few "friends" over there when you malign their holy anointed ones by labeling them a "cult" as well.

If you DON'T do this then we'll all know you've just joined the hypocrisy that is a part of all mormonism.

When your child is of a certain age, they will be taken into a room with a man and the door will be shut. That man (the "bishop") will proceed to ask your child extremely personal questions having to do with your child's "worthiness." Many of the questions will be of a sexual nature. You will be expected to go along with this unquestioningly. If you think this is acceptable/desirable, well, then...

Btw, *you* will also be taken into a room by the "bishop" and asked personal questions about *your* worthiness. Many of these questions will be of a sexual nature. You will be expected to go along with this questioningly. If you think this is acceptable/desirable, well, then...

I asked in the other thread:

(subject): So ... Who here is trying to extort money from me???


Who here is trying to tell me I CAN'T believe the things I currently believe??

Who is trying to control and monopolize my time???

And just who the central personality we are all supposed to worship??

Yes, indeed, we here at RFM are a cult! Even though we don't fit any of the classic characteristics of one.

Sheesh!


You might want to see why I ask these questions. The following links may be helpful:
http://rickross.com/
http://www.freedomofmind.com/
http://www.icsahome.com/

The first one - Rick Ross Institute - has a collection of news stories on verious groups. The Mormons have a page with such a collection. You may be interested in reviewing what the church has been involved with that has been found to be news worthy. There are a couple articles about sexual abuse of children within Mormon culture that I found to be more than alarming.

Here is the link to the Rick Ross Mormon page:
http://rickross.com/groups/mormon.html

And I see that Steve Hassan of the Freedom of Mind (the second link above) has an Audio and/or Video titled "How The LDS Fits The Cult Profile". This link can be found on Freedom of Mind's Mormon page.
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/m/mormon/

...this is what you will wear (over your wedding gown which might as well not be there at all.)

http://eyeonapologetics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Sandra-Tanner-in-LDS-Temple-Clothing.jpg

This is what your intended will wear:

http://nowscape.com/mormon/sign-of-the-nail.jpg

This is what you'll be wearing under your temple garb and wedding dress (and will be expected to wear morning and night for the rest of your life (the infamous garments):

http://www.flavinscorner.com/mormon.jpg

Seriously, do you really need to let a church choose your underwear for you?

Your parents will not be allowed to enter the temple for your wedding because they will not be deemed, "worthy." These of course are the very same people who birthed you, stayed up nights when you were sick, helped you with your homework, fed you, housed you, cheered for you when you accomplished something wonderful, and hugged you when you suffered a misfortune. You would leave these wonderful people out of your wedding? Really? Do you realize what a slap in the face this would be to them?

The words, "love, honor, and cherish" are not a part of the Mormon wedding ceremony. Neither is a ring exchange, although couples often choose to to it after the wedding is over.

Is this really the wedding of your dreams?

...just a few things (of many) for you to ponder.

SusieP, if you feel that the church will work for you, by all means, go ahead. You will find much more peace there if you learn to take all the doctrine with a grain of salt, and not take it too seriously. And whatever you do, don't tithe. If you have the discretionary income, give to a charity of your choice. Your charitable contributions will go alot farther outside of the church than in it.